Discussion in 'The Lounge' started by JM, Dec 15, 2003.
Yes! Born again Dec 1999. Thank you Lord Jesus.
Is he right? I didn't think being born again had anything to do with baptism.
That ^ is not referring to baptism....
Baptism is a symbolic, ceremonial procedure that mimics a real ego death and rebirth experience.
Truly being born again takes place in my opinion when you feel the full weight and insanity of being alone without God. Literally feeling the weight of the void and nothingness itself. You realize that you need God because He is the only thing that is real.
No, he isn't and it has nothing to do with narvana/nibana, ego/atman or any other hindu religion. Its when the Holy Spirit comes upon you and makes you a child of God through Jesus Christ. Amen.
I am in agreement with this! Thanks Sco!
Whew! thanks guys...for a second there, I thought I had missed a memo or something... :
John here: I will reply to your remarks & also what was, & still is my thinking on this. I will use Italic's. (I see that it did not come through as such?)
----- Original Message -----
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: ---The THREAD Asks: "ARE YOU A BORN AGAIN BELIEVER?
As a brother in Christ, I love you. But as far as this Ego Death thing goes, it is not what you think. Please have an open mind and check out the links I provided below. Not for me, but for your own sake.
Vic, what you mean or what the poster means is not the issue. What [Christ wants] is what my message (is) was trying to emphasize. I stand by my posted remarks. Mans EGO? "The practice of talking about oneself too much" (See Webster's definition ) I rate it right up there with Isa. 14:12-14! I,I,I,I,I, This is what my post agrees with. This Ego must die!
John the Baptist wrote:
Just one last thought remains? Saul asked the question, and Christ stated the REQUIREMENT!
John, what was the question and what was Christ's response?
Vic, hay gal, did you read the whole of the post? The verses [are] there!
What if Saul had now refused the CONDITIONS?? He summitted so far, & then the lights were turned on, so to speak. Now he was given a test! (see Hosea 4:6)------ This was for the Hebrews.
---John here: Hosea 4:6...OT. You say... This was for the Hebrews. ??
What are you saying? Christ stated that in the.. '[last days], knowledge shall be increased'. Dan. 12:4 And Hosea 4:6 states.. "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, [I WILL REJECT THEE.]" Now, you say that this is for the Hebrews?? Come on Vic, is this not rejecting knowledge?? The Word [Christ] say's that He is the same yesterday, today and forever! And are we not His people??
One last thought! The last church of the old Testament found the new Testament church on the scene at the same time! Consider Rev. 3:7---17.
What last church of the OT are you talking about? There wasn't ANY churches in the OT. Since Jesus established His church (Matthew 16:18 ) it is impossible any church preceded Christ.
----John in responce to the above.
Interesting that you say this. It might be good for you to tell us what the differance between a church, a denomination, or a Fold might be? Perhaps some might wonder why Virgin Israel were to be united in God's theocracy in the old testament? And in the New Testament we are to see a seperation of Church and Caesar?
But as for the question. In John 10:16 we see that the 'sheep' that are in some 'folds' (a group of people with a common faith, Webster defines it as) can be christless! Otherwise why would Christ need to have His 'sheep' hear His voice & depart from these folds??
".. other sheep I have: which are not of this fold: them also *must I bring, and they shall hear My voice; and they shall be ONE FOLD, AND ONE SHEPARD." Compare Rev. 18:4 Vic.
By the way, this was before the Master established the 'new fold'. Or Church, or denomination, or whatever your desire wants to describe it as?? What was the fold that John refers to Christ in John 1:11 as.. "He came unto His own and His own received Him not." (no question meant!)
And it seems that you are directly contradicting Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 in telling me that there was not a Rev. 3's, seven church repeat? Rev. 1:20 'are seven churches' & Rev. 1: 10-14 says that John was in the Spirit on the 7th day Sabbath of the Lord! (bottom line!) And he saw the 'seven golden candelsticks; And in [[the midst]] of the seven golden candlesticks one like the Son of Man..'
Think of a lampstand with three candles on each side, giving light connected with a taller center shaft representing Christ & His light [unto the world?] But not Old Testaments times, huh???
OK: Was not this what the seven churchs were all about [*starting] in Ex. 25:8-9-! or Heb. 8:1-5! And we hearing that these *patterns (blueprint or perhaps recipe for the womens understanding? See Psalms 77:13) of the heavenly tabernacle, sanctuary or *THRONE in heaven, [and] on earth, are not God's a church 'fold'???? Even down to the first compartment that was closed until the years endings. With a vail into the Most Holy place before the Masters death, with the 'Holy Place' (not the Most Holy) having these same SEVEN GOLDEN CANDELSTICKS inside! Way back in Ex. 25! See Ex. 25:30. Check chapter 26:30-35.
And who was over this [CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS]?? 1 Cor. 10:1-4 Vic?
I know what Steven was 'inspired' to pen in Acts 7:51 about these 'ones' being 'stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and [ears], ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." was penned.
Now please remember Vic, you are the one that stated that this was for the Hebrews and that there was [no church] in history past! Yet, in this chapter 7, verse 38 we can see that Steven states much truth if we can hear it? (see Heb. 5:11-14) He too must have believed in the Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 'INSPIRATION'. Here is what the 'Word of GOD' says...
"This is he that was [IN *THE CHURCH ] in the wilderness, with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinna, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us." Your arguement is not with me Vic.
Then I see that we have a Baptist Born Again Believer who is a forum moderator tell the 'world + the heavenly record books', that you sound more Hindu then (than?) Christian.
And seeing that I agree with your post, this must include me also?
Anyway, the question is, do Baptist Believe that Hindu's are believers?? And you had just stated that you 'believed' in Christ and have surrendered the total EGO! What WORK do you lack yet, is my question???
Links concerning Ego Death
http://www.digiserve.com/mystic/Muslim/ ... death.html
PS: Please, no more moderators like this one, OK???
I respectfully disagree with you. At least he knows how to properly divide God's word.
Vic, are you saying that you agree with the moderator that suggest's
that the earlier poster (or myself) are Hindu rather than Christian? or whatever his Christlike suggestion was?? And all because the attacked poster or I believe that the only way to be born again is be totally surendered to Christ?? With a D-E-A-D ego!??
And that is properly dividing God's Word???
And he (this moderator) has stated over & over that because CHRIST tells one that.. "IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS" and then because 'i' agree with THIS TRUTH as stated by my Master, and ... with [His Power & Strength] as seen in Phil. 4:13 2 Cor. 12:9 to do His will the best that I am able, that I am now trying to work my way into heaven? And that, that is leagalism.
Go back over his threads Vic & see for yourself what he says about 7th day Sabbath keepers desiring.. because of LOVE for their Master's to obey His 4th Commandment? I had even asked for a retraction or to 'print the records of such a remark'! So as I could correct it if is was even 'hinted' that I believed any such foolishness! But what has been done?? Nothing but this same old 'properly dividing God' Word'! See 2 Cor. 4:2
All Vic, that I ask is for truthfulness to be printed, not the attacking of the person.
Jesus is the reason for the season
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Yes, I see that he surely does know how to quote 'somebodys' word, huh?
See Gen. 4:7. A Born Again Baptist?? :
Once again the "Born Again" experience comes down to language and semantics.
Why is it so hard to equate the Universal Nature of the Love of God in to other cultures and their interpretation?
Do you all honestly believe that all the Indians, Middle Easter Arabs and natives in the jungles of South America are going to hell basically because they have been "hard wired" to accept a different idealogy other than westernized Christianity?
Is God the Father and the Holy Spirit limited only to our prescribed culture and religion?
Always remember that scripture is a man made interpreation of Divine Revelation.
Christianity is mainly an exoteric, symbolic, ceremonial worship system that glorifies the ideals of Christ rather than embodying Christ Himself.
If it lets you sleep at night thinking that Christ only adheres to your Church and doctrine than God bless you.
I just dont happen to agree no matter how hard I try to trick myself into doing so.
Overall following the Bible is fine for obeying God and traversing the NarrowPath, but for the True seeker that wants to see past the "worldly" system a different approach can be taken as well.
Baptism and all other Christian ceremonies that mark the Church dont save souls.
God alone saves souls and in the end can do whatever He wants to do.
I would like some of the scholarly here to point out to me with original manuscripts the scriptural proof of hellfire for those not in the Church outside of translated Bibles that are in English.
Let Christ be the judge and never stop helping the children and the weak, that is what it boild down to for me.
And what exactly does this mean Sco? The Holy Spirit coming down and making you a child of God through Jesus Christ exactly entails what?
If you were to ask 100 different people what exactly that meant you would get one hundred different answers.
For some it might mean a sense of security and peace,
others may see "visions" of Christ or Angelic entities etc,
others may feel it not at all and realize it mentally that God loves them,
others may mimic role models and others in the Church and basically just "go with it".
It is possible that some people may not ever consciously be aware of it.
How do you know which experience is authentic?
If you are interested in my experience read on.
It happened in a dream actually. I was in some sort of compound in the future. I was being shot at and was dodging the bullets and attacks of my pursurers. I made doors where there were no doors and climbed walls like a spider. I was escaping the "bad things" in my dream. They had something I wanted. I finally made it out of the building and ran as fast as I could. i heard a different tone to the bullets behind me and realized that I would not dodge these ones.
At that moment I said allowed in my dream "Well Lord Jesus Saviour of my life, here we go" or something close to that.
I felt the bullets hit me just as I felt an explosion in my skull. It was the most blissful and powerful Love I ever felt in my life. I almost woke up at this point. (I may have and just forgot it). The next thing I know I am seeing Christ as he really is. His face changed and twisted into forms I did not recognize. He was the most beaufiul thing I had ever seen. All of a sudden I saw him change to an old, flea ridden bum. People in this dream told me that they did not know who he was but that they had healed them of many things. One man showed me boils that were now healed. I wqatched and realized that no one would stay near Him for long because inside of Him was the mirror image of all the good and bad things that the observer had done. The worse the "sins" the less that person wanted t be near Him. Many viewed Him as an insane bum that was evil and to be feared. i dont remember a lot of the dream but I do know that viewing all humanity with an equal eye is very imporatant in that place.
There are no religions and people are all equal in the presence of Christ.
Once again I was completely sober and this was all a dream I had.
I know it was the Holy Spirit and have felt that explosion in my skull of love and peace before in nature.
It has never happend to me in Church! Only mildly and in my heart, not like when I give up all preconceptions and meanings like they teach you to do in Sunday School.
All in all I guess I just cant wait to see this place made new.
Oh yha I woke up in tears after that one.
On further reflection I think you may be correct on the ego death being equated with Born Again experience.
For the mystic there is
and "mystical merging"
when it comes to experinces of the Divine.
To be quite honest with you the "ego death" could be aquated to hell rather than "Born Again" although both types of events will give you more of an understanding on the character of the Divine Nature.
OK: I could believe that testimony. It is in the Word of God as Paul explains it in Rom. 2:14-15. These folk had never even heard of Christ as Christians have. But where is the [law of God] found in the passage of scripture? See 2 Cor. 3:3
SO: Let say that you are Born Again. (who am 'i' to know your heart, and say that you are not???) But this is the STARTING POINT. This I do know! John 3:5 (mandatory)
Now: What is next?? Are you saying like some others that you are O.S.A.S.? Or is there more to be done in a saved persons CHARACTER growth? Can one be 'LED' of God and stand still? Rom. 8:14
But think this out? Do you realize that your belief in Christ... (even if you do not realize that the LAW OF CHRIST is HIS MORAL CHARACTER, the very FIBER of Christ) ... puts you in the Baptist Brotherhood as a fellow Born Again Brother!
Bottom line: A Born Again Believer makes a Christian Brother for Baptist teaching. But a Born Again Christian Brother is not required to be in the Baptist 'fold'.
Perhaps if I am in error some one will correct me with 'documented' Baptist doctrine, huh? :fadein: (you know, rather than attack the person? )
John, I am not really sure what you are trying to say, but if you are really interested in what we believe...read here..... http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#i
I am Baptist mostly through membership of that church but when asked I say I am a Christian. Though I do believe in all of the tenets described on that site. So I guess that does make me a Baptist, huh?
BTW, it was and is never my intention to attack you. I just do the same that you do, 2 Tim 3:16. We just seem to disagree on a few scriptual interpretations.
Great post John!
I see what you are saying and I do consider myself a Christ follower over all else that I believe.
I found Christ through esoteric means that is really all I am saying.
I hold the Bible above things like the Gita, Upanishads, etc mainly due to the prophecies.
That does not mean there is NO truth in people like Gandhi and other non Christian Saints though!
Good movie, Gandhi, you should check it out this holiday if you never have.Very well done.
Have you seen it Vic?
Vic, (me again)
If the moderators all had your seemingly Rom. 8:14 conviction, (Being 'LED of the Holy Ghost) we might see the site stay as a real tool of God.
But my beef is that 'openly spiritual libel' lies are told about some posters & even dead people! And regardless if done directly which has been done, or by hinting or suggestion, it has been & is continuingly being done by this one moderator 'himself'. Then [you] say that you are not 'attacking'??
Yet, you say that the moderator is 'decerning Gods Word correctly???
I have never had ANY thought that you were personally attacking [anyone], period! (nor most other moderators either) But does not God say that WE ARE PARTAKERS if we are PARTY to this attack??
Speaking for myself, I see just two aternatives. So even as a poster, I object. That is my Christian OBLIGATION. And yes, I understand that a forum is not a church. Yet, does not even Caesar teach that one can be an accesory after the fact? (sorry, but OSAS has no law now perhaps?)
Separate names with a comma.