Arminianism and Calvinism

[FreeGrace]

So far I've agreed with you on all you've said.
But above you do say something which is incredibly misunderstood by those who believe in eternal security.

I also believe in eternal security for as long as you trust in Jesus for your salvation.
IOW, the same belief that saved you is going to keep you saved.

This would indicate that it is one's action of belief that keeps them saved.

What if you stop believing and return to a life of sin? Are you still saved?

Jesus was clear in John 10:28 that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. I take that quite literally.

If faith saves us..
Ephesians 2:8
How could no longer having faith still keep us saved?

It's not our action of belief that saves us. It's God who saves us.

According to Scripture, eternal life is possessed when one believes:
John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47, 11:25-27, 20:31, and 1 John 5:13.

According to John 10:28, recipients of eternal life shall never perish. That means no conditions on recipients. Once one has received the gift of eternal life, they shall never perish, so said Jesus.

Since this thread isn't about eternal security, I'd be quite happy to continue this discussion in a conversation. Your call.

2 Timothy 2:13
"If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny HIMSELF".

This actually supports eternal security. How? Because every believer is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. God cannot deny Himself. Therefore, God cannot deny those indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

What do you suppose it means that God remains faithful to Himself?

See above.

 

[FreeGrace]

I really would like a fairly long, slower, discussion on total depravity.

To me it may help some in the whole thread.

Others have their own points to make, and I would just bog down the process.

1. What is bible total depravity?
2. Did it ever exist?
3. What was God’s up front solution?
4. What did God do?
5. Was it a permanent solution?
6. What is today’s equivalent to total depravity?
7. Was there a permanent solution?
8. What makes it permanent?
9. Who cares?
10. More questions?

Wondering?
You want to start another thread with total depravity in parenthesis?
PEMDAS included?

I am pretty sure my thoughts would wreck this broad thread.

One meat in a vessel at one time? Cooking theology is an art. An art that rednecks seem not to have.

eddif

Short answer: inability to save oneself. Period. Nothing about being unable to accept the free gift of eternal life. Or Titus 2:11 has no meaning.

 

[Cygnus]

That is far too simplistic of an explanation. I think we all know people (least ways I do) who are at the end of their rope either emotionally, physically, financially, etc, and finally turn to God and receive what they needed in the first place: forgiveness, peace and hope.
Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

And if their path in life didn't bring them down....they might not have "chosen" Christ and died lost. That would have been to bad for them.

 

[Papa Zoom]

MCoop,

My theology is not built on how 'one feels'. My 'strange understanding' (a goading comment) is backed by Scripture.

What I find amazing is how you have cherry-picked 2 verses from Rom 9 (vv 18-19). I agree with these verses that God has mercy on whomever he wills and hardens whomever he wills. However, the context is Moses and Pharaoh.

If we go to Rom 9:30-33 (NIV) - still in the same chapter and explaining how vv 18-19 can be applied to salvation:

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame” (emphasis added).​

So, for Gentiles, righteousness comes by faith for anyone who believes in Jesus. There is no thought of you're in and you're out here - by the sovereign will of God.

There are simple steps to the solution to why some accept and others reject salvation. These steps are not comprehensive and you probably will take exception to some. I don’t expect Calvinists to endorse any action of free will in salvation:

1. Salvation is by grace through faith, without good works (Eph 2:8-9 NIV).
2. ‘Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ’ (Rom 10:17 NIV). There is no salvation through exposure to natural revelation (e.g. Rom 1:18ff), but a person must hear or read the Gospel message.
3. ‘You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life’ (John 5:39-40 ESV). Individual choice is involved. People refuse to come – for various reasons. Jesus’ words are profound, ‘Yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life’. They refuse to come. They have the free will to receive or reject. This is Jesus telling us part of his theology of salvation (soteriology).
4. ‘No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them (sic), and I will raise them (sic) up at the last day’ (John 6:44 NIV). The Father draws; he does not drag people into the kingdom through unconditional election or irresistible grace. The drawing is not forceful, to the point of giving no other alternative. Is this drawing made possible for ALL people and not the ELECT ONLY? Jesus answers that: 'And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself' (John 12:32 NIV).
   
5. We know from Titus 2:11 (ESV) that ‘the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people’. This grace of God appeared with the passion-resurrection of Jesus, making salvation available to all. Yes, ALL!
6. The fact is that people who hear the Gospel are drawn by the Father, but they have a choice to make – accept or reject the Gospel. The human will has been freed to enable human beings to make a decision for or against Christ. Human beings who are dead in sin are freed to believe by God himself.
7. There is a godly mystery (1 Cor 2:7 NIV) involved in how God, by his Spirit, takes the message of salvation, exposes human beings to it, they are drawn (not forced) by the Father, and they have the choice to reject or ‘believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved – you and your household’ (Acts 16:31 NIV).
8. In this process, Satan’s influence cannot be under-estimated in influencing people to reject salvation. We are reminded in 1 Peter 5:8 (NIV), ‘Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour’. Satan the deceiver and devourer of all things good, including the Gospel, should not be ignored (from my article,
   Salvation by grace but not by force: A person chooses to believe).

Leave out the free will choice – as Calvinists do – and it excludes a core element in the reception of the Gospel by people. Exclude free will and you eliminate what Jesus included: ‘You refuse to come to me that you may have life’ (John 5:40 ESV).

That is not a 'strange understanding' but a biblical understanding.

Oz

Very well thought out post OZ. I had questions along the way but you answered them as I read. Particularly, I was going to ask about no one coming to the Father unless the Spirit draws them. You covered that well and beyond what I've had presented in the past. Thanks for your insights!

 

[Cygnus]

right there is your problem you do not understand free will.the plan of salvation is offered freely freely given the plan of salvation cost us nothing.. when you got save yes the spirit drew you.. you could have rejected there is the free will. Paul wrote quench not the spirit . when he stands at the door of our heart and knocks. it is up to us to open up our heart . yes God gives us a new heart and a heart to know him. i dont know nothing about this irresistible Grace.. nothing is forced up on us..Jesus said come unto me..

As you said...."yes God gives us a new heart and a heart to know him" That's called salvation.

so where did you get this load of misinformation at some story book of fairy tales? do me a favor go to a church that you know teaches free will ..just go in and listen to the message. as per bad hands as you say ..do you have any idea the number bad hands .i been dealt? what your describing is the seeds sown different levels of hearing . but those on the good ground brought forth fruit

Good thing you were dealt those bad hands....or you might not have "chosen" Jesus. You could have been dealt another hand...and "rejected" Jesus.

If free-will concerning you accepting or rejecting Christ is true....then that choice is filtered through events in your life that are not in your control.

Do me a favor go to a church that you know teaches election.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I'm stopping this thread again so that people will have a chance to read this post of mine.

I'm very frustrated at the moment. There are some excellent posts here and good exchanges. But, there are personal attacks spattered all over the place.

"You don't understand freewill at all!" This is just wrong to say. How does such address the issue? It doesn't! It addresses one person's opinion of another's shortcomings!

As Bob Newhart told one of his patients in his sitcom: "Just stop it!"

Don't use you, you're, your. This is the problem. I don't need anyone to tell me where my personal shortcomings are. The TOS said address the issues yet some continue to attack the person.

"You have a problem with your interpretation."

That's personal. And it leads to more personal stuff. I don't know what else to say but maybe instead of allowing some of it we should delete all posts that have you you're and your in them! Good grief.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Page 13 has approx 63 uses of you; you're; your; and you've. I found at least 6 uses of you; you're; your; you've that are "to the person" and not the issue. That's a personal attack. That's just page 13. I suspect if I checked each page I'd find more. So

I'm reopening this. Those that continue to attack the person in violation of the TOS will have to be removed from the thread for a few days. A second offense will have to be permanent.

Obviously with 63 uses of the word "you" and only 5 or so personal applications, the problem isn't with using you; you're; your; You've. It's how they are used. Please, if you think Im being picky, open up a TWITS and say so. But stop with the personal stuff.

1) Give other members the respect you would have them give to yourself. (ToS 2.4)
Address issues/ideas, not persons or personalities. Do not insult, publicly post derogatory opinions of others, post insinuation to belittle or discredit, or otherwise create a hostile environment. Present evidence for support or rebuttal during debate. Bashing the author of another view or opinion is not evidence.

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

It is a violation to misquote or misrepresent another member. Do not flood a forum or thread with similar posts, or many posts in succession. Allow others a chance to speak and be heard. If you are responding to multiple posts in the same thread, please consider using the multi-quote feature. Please refrain from taking a thread too far off topic.

And to be clear, it's not everyone. Most posts are fine. So here we go.....

 

[reba]

I'm reopening this. Those that continue to attack the person in violation of the TOS will have to be removed from the thread for a few days. A second offense will have to be permanent.

So often it gets just too much for staff and we closed the thread... I am in favor of removing the posters violating the TOS then the thread... I get how much simpler it is for us to close the thread...

How we read the word "you" in any form, often is the spark to the snark... the writer may well mean 'you' we can easily read YOU or even YOU as if it is an attack. ...

 

[civilwarbuff]

Hmmmmmmm.....then we should not be surprised to see Hitler, Stalin, Manson, etc in heaven since God can choose who He will and remain just.

 

[Papa Zoom]

So often it gets just too much for staff and we closed the thread... I am in favor of removing the posters violating the TOS then the thread... I get how much simpler it is for us to close the thread...

How we read the word "you" in any form, often is the spark to the snark... the writer may well mean 'you' we can easily read YOU or even YOU as if it is an attack. ...

Thanks Reba. You're right. I want to keep the thread open because most are posting just fine. I'm going to be off for a while now so will check on things when I come back. I don't know if you read my last post , but I counted all the uses of you (including your, you're etc) and found 63 (using the search function). Of the 63, 5 violated the TOS. So it's clearly not the word, but the use. I even used it about 6 or so times in my posts. That actually surprised me that most uses of the "you" were just fine. Anyway, I'll check again when I get back from my morning walk. Sun is out and it stopped raining! We have flood conditions because of the rain the past week. I'm at the top so we don't flood, just get wet a lot. Rain forest living. Good for frogs, not people.

 

[artful horizon]

So far I've agreed with you on all you've said.
But above you do say something which is incredibly misunderstood by those who believe in eternal security.

I also believe in eternal security for as long as you trust in Jesus for your salvation.
IOW, the same belief that saved you is going to keep you saved.
What if you stop believing and return to a life of sin? Are you still saved?

If faith saves us..
Ephesians 2:8
How could no longer having faith still keep us saved?

2 Timothy 2:13
"If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny HIMSELF".

What do you suppose it means that God remains faithful to Himself?
If God DOES remain faithful to Himself, He certainly must require faith for one to be saved.
He does NOT remain faithful to the unbeliever, He remains faithful to HIMSELF.
To what He did for us on the cross...to what He deems just...to HIMSELF and HIS requirements.

Again, I am not in the Calvinist nor Arminian camps. I'm simply going by what Jesus taught.
The redeemed in Christ have their identity in Christ as Children of God. John 1. We are one with him in the spirit. 1Corinthians 6. Which is why Paul said there is no more division even among tribes of people. We are all one in Christ. Son's and daughters of Christ through the salvation and our atonement that was predestined by The Father and sealed by His Holy Spirit. Galatians 3.
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

When we're told in those Revelation scriptures that our name is in the Book of Life and it will not be blotted out, the one that wrote those names is our sovereign God that predestined us according to his will to become one with Christ. Ephesians 1, and particularly verse 4,
"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. "
Romans 8, and Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Which speaks to those who are in Christ and predestined, were chosen by The Father to become sons and daughters of Christ, God. And those who think to become Christian but are really not so.

Our sovereign infinitely knowledgeable God wrote our names in the Book of Life first. Before anything we knew about salvation God knew us by name. Sometimes people refer to the Book of Revelation chapter 3 and verse 5 in order to argue that names can be blotted out of the BoL. But that's not what it is saying. 5."He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."
Those who's name are in the book are already predestined to overcome the world because they are sealed with the Holy Spirit to the day of Redemption.

The teachings out there that promote the false notion that we can have our names blotted out of the book are wrong. And in my opinion, committing a heinous blasphemy against God The Father who wrote those names down. Because the teaching, from whatever camp it may arrive, is insisting in that teaching that God is not omniscient. That every verse in scripture that pertains to His sovereignty and foreknowledge and omnipotence, which is key, omnipotence, is false. And that The Father that said he knew us before we were conceived, Isaiah 44 & 49, Psalm 71 Jeremiah 1, Galatians 1 and on and on, because our souls come from God, “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you” (Jeremiah 1:5), and that being possible because the human reproduction system is God's making, was wrong. And his foreknowledge and sovereignty in writing those names in His Book of Life, key there, His, were a mistake that he didn't see coming when he failed to foresee, since he foreknew but couldn't foresee? That some of those names would fail in his expectation of them.

That is worldly teaching that attempts to impart humans are able to overcome God's will for them.

 

[artful horizon]

Hmmmmmmm.....then we should not be surprised to see Hitler, Stalin, Manson, etc in heaven since God can choose who He will and remain just.

Going with the recent news concerning Charles Manson's demise when he was in his 80's. Is it possible he was redeemed on his hospital bed and is now one with Christ?
Furthermore, Hitler was known to be a Catholic. And Stalin was active in the church as a young man and was Orthodox. Can we say we know they are not or were not one with Christ? Given their religious history before their wicked ways made history?

 

[Cygnus]

Hmmmmmmm.....then we should not be surprised to see Hitler, Stalin, Manson, etc in heaven since God can choose who He will and remain just.

Perhaps we should include Paul in the list....he was pretty nasty before Jesus had a word with him. Then again Pauls life demonstrated he was saved....not so with Hitler, Stalin, Manson, etc.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Going with the recent news concerning Charles Manson's demise when he was in his 80's. Is it possible he was redeemed on his hospital bed and is now one with Christ?
Furthermore, Hitler was known to be a Catholic. And Stalin was active in the church as a young man and was Orthodox. Can we say we know they are not or were not one with Christ? Given their religious history before their wicked ways made history?

I will take your response as an agreement with my statement.......I will also take it that your position is a person cannot lose salvation once chosen......it would seem from a calvinistic POV they go hand in hand.

 

[Cygnus]

I will take your response as an agreement with my statement.......I will also take it that your position is a person cannot lose salvation once chosen......it would seem from a calvinistic POV they go hand in hand.

Artful Horizon posted scripture. Apparently John Calvin as well as others saw the same message.

 

[eddif]

No. I was planning to do this here.
So far we've gotten to Election and Perseverance.
Total depravity in Calvinism is equal to the Sin Nature in Arminianism.

I hate putting persons into "camps", but, after all, we all do have opinions.
Go ahead and start.
What IS total depravity?
What IS the sin nature? (or I'll do that since it's what I've learned)

Because you are on a path, just put total depravity on slow day discussion.

Genesis 6:5 KJV
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart wasonly evil continually.

No room for God - total.

Ok. It is fairly easy to tie the sin nature into total depravity. Have at it.

Redneck
eddif

 

[artful horizon]

Perhaps we should include Paul in the list....he was pretty nasty before Jesus had a word with him. Then again Pauls life demonstrated he was saved....not so with Hitler, Stalin, Manson, etc.

Yet, the question was, as pertained to Manson first in the list, can we say he did not achieve redemption on his hospital death bed? How would we know?
Hitler was Catholic, Stalin was originally Orthodox, though it was claimed he became atheist. Who knows in this flesh whom God knew before the world began?

 

[artful horizon]

Artful Horizon posted scripture. Apparently John Calvin as well as others saw the same message.

I will take your response as an agreement with my statement.......I will also take it that your position is a person cannot lose salvation once chosen......it would seem from a calvinistic POV they go hand in hand.

Do not presume to use personal presumptive qualifiers to implicate me as allied with those imaginings please. TULIP is not something I defended nor agree with. Therefore the implication is false.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Do not presume to use personal presumptive qualifiers to implicate me as allied with those imaginings please. TULIP is not something I defended nor agree with. Therefore the implication is false.

Was not directed at you.......

 

[Cygnus]

Yet, the question was, as pertained to Manson first in the list, can we say he did not achieve redemption on his hospital death bed? How would we know?
Hitler was Catholic, Stalin was originally Orthodox, though it was claimed he became atheist. Who knows in this flesh whom God knew before the world began?

You never know.

If they were truly saved...then went apostate..then they are still saved. But, their actions show otherwise.