Arminianism and Calvinism

[FreeGrace]

So often it gets just too much for staff and we closed the thread... I am in favor of removing the posters violating the TOS then the thread... I get how much simpler it is for us to close the thread...

How we read the word "you" in any form, often is the spark to the snark... the writer may well mean 'you' we can easily read YOU or even YOU as if it is an attack. ...

It seems impossible to address another poster's view without the use of the word "your". As in "your view". Is that seen as an attack?

 

[FreeGrace]

Hmmmmmmm.....then we should not be surprised to see Hitler, Stalin, Manson, etc in heaven since God can choose who He will and remain just.

If any of these characters ever put their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, no, we should not be surprised. But what would make anyone think that any of them did?

Remember, we don't get to heaven based on our behavior. If so, that would be a works salvation system. No grace in that.

 

[artful horizon]

It seems impossible to address another poster's view without the use of the word "your". As in "your view". Is that seen as an attack?

It is impossible. If the observation were universal we'd have a real problem reading scriptures. Maybe read in context of intent rather than prohibit all together , those pronouns.

Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

Matthew 12:36
I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak,

 

[artful horizon]

If any of these characters ever put their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, no, we should not be surprised. But what would make anyone think that any of them did?

We do not possess the mind of God. Therefore , we cannot presume to say one way or the other can we?

Remember, we don't get to heaven based on our behavior. If so, that would be a works salvation system. No grace in that.

And by that very truth, we do not go to Hell based on our behavior. Grace, is a gift of God. A free gift. A blessing. And not of our own doing. Which says it all really.

 

[FreeGrace]

Perhaps we should include Paul in the list....he was pretty nasty before Jesus had a word with him. Then again Pauls life demonstrated he was saved....not so with Hitler, Stalin, Manson, etc.

While one's life can demonstrate one is saved, there are unbelievers who actually live a better life than some believers, so it's not a "gold standard" for who's going to heaven.

Just read 1 Cor 10 regarding the Exodus generation. Consider these verses:
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

Then, Paul wrote this:
6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.
11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

It would make no sense to use unsaved people as "examples" for saved people. Apples to oranges.

 

[artful horizon]

This would indicate that it is one's action of belief that keeps them saved.


Jesus was clear in John 10:28 that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. I take that quite literally.


It's not our action of belief that saves us. It's God who saves us.

According to Scripture, eternal life is possessed when one believes:
John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:40,47, 11:25-27, 20:31, and 1 John 5:13.

According to John 10:28, recipients of eternal life shall never perish. That means no conditions on recipients. Once one has received the gift of eternal life, they shall never perish, so said Jesus.

Since this thread isn't about eternal security, I'd be quite happy to continue this discussion in a conversation. Your call.


This actually supports eternal security. How? Because every believer is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. God cannot deny Himself. Therefore, God cannot deny those indwelt with the Holy Spirit.


See above.

 

[artful horizon]

Was not directed at you.......

Yes, it was. You quoted me and then posted.

 

[artful horizon]

You never know.

If they were truly saved...then went apostate..then they are still saved. But, their actions show otherwise.

God knows.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"If any of these characters ever put their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, no, we should not be surprised. But what would make anyone think that any of them did?"

We do not possess the mind of God. Therefore , we cannot presume to say one way or the other can we?

No. We can only apply the doctrines taught in Scripture about such things.

And by that very truth, we do not go to Hell based on our behavior.

Agreed! Sad how many think people go to hell for theis sins. When Rev 20:15 is so clear about why people will be cast into the lake of fire.

Grace, is a gift of God. A free gift. A blessing. And not of our own doing. Which says it all really.

Amen!!

 

[OzSpen]

My chief problem with the Arminian views on free will is this...

Your choice of accepting or rejecting Christ is based upon your individual path in life coupled with happenstance.
If you get dealt a good hand you might accept Christ. If you get dealt a bad hand you may tend to reject Christ.
In other words your choice to accept or reject Christ really isn't your own but the bias life gave you.

That's a false view of Arminianism. I noted that you did not quote even one statement from Arminius or Arminians to support any of these 3 statements.

Therefore, as you have objected here, it's a straw man argument.

Oz

 

[civilwarbuff]

Yes, it was. You quoted me and then posted.

Please show me where because I don't see it......

 

[Cygnus]

That's a false view of Arminianism. I noted that you did not quote even one statement from Arminius or Arminians to support any of these 3 statements.

Therefore, as you have objected here, it's a straw man argument.

Oz

have you not been following this thread...especially where the mods asked us not to attack people?

If you object to my view....post your reason why...don't simply name it a strawman argument.

My post was to show why I believe Arminianism is not correct.

 

[reba]

It seems impossible to address another poster's view without the use of the word "your". As in "your view". Is that seen as an attack?

context matters

 

[reba]

closed for the moderator review... personal attacks..

 

[Nikos]

If I would die today at 5 pm, God's foreknowledge would cover that but would He know what I would have done if I had lived until 6 pm? Does God have knowledge that is only essential to my existence but He would not know what I would have done after my death?

 

[JLB]

If I would die today at 5 pm, God's foreknowledge would cover that but would He know what I would have done if I had lived until 6 pm? Does God have knowledge that is only essential to my existence but He would not know what I would have done after my death?

Welcome to the Forum, brother.

Glad to have you here with us.


Bless you.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Welcome to the Forum, brother.

Glad to have you here with us.


Bless you.


JLB

Gosh,,,,I thought Reba was back!

 

[GodsGrace]

If I would die today at 5 pm, God's foreknowledge would cover that but would He know what I would have done if I had lived until 6 pm? Does God have knowledge that is only essential to my existence but He would not know what I would have done after my death?

Hi Nikos,,,
Welcome to the forum!

You're asking a very deep question.
But I don't think it's very clear as to the situation.

 

[PeterJens]

If I would die today at 5 pm, God's foreknowledge would cover that but would He know what I would have done if I had lived until 6 pm? Does God have knowledge that is only essential to my existence but He would not know what I would have done after my death?

A simple answer is, would you have done anything than normal for that day? When you look at what we do it is 99% predictable. If we can do this, the Lord can do so much more.

 

[GodsGrace]

Don't you choose everyday?

The question is freewill towards salvation.

My chief problem with the Arminian views on free will is this...

Your choice of accepting or rejecting Christ is based upon your individual path in life coupled with happenstance.
If you get dealt a good hand you might accept Christ. If you get dealt a bad hand you may tend to reject Christ.
In other words your choice to accept or reject Christ really isn't your own but the bias life gave you.

For example there are some people who hate certain groups of people. The reason for their hate might be that's what they were taught. Their bias may be that they will always hate that particular group of people. In a sense they will never choose that particular group of people as "friends". Their bias has stripped them of the possibility for friendship.

Your post is rather funny.

You say that we could be dealt a good hand or a bad hand.
Due to the bias life gives us.

What could be MORE BIASED than GOD deciding who will go to heaven
and who will go to hell THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN??

We wouldn't need to be stripped of anything...
GOD would be making all the decisions.

The reformed faith never made any logical sense to me...
or biblical sense.

Does Acts 16:30-31 sound like a good hand to you?
30and after he brought them out, he said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”


The jailer wanted to know how to be saved.
Paul told him to BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS
and THEN you will BE SAVED.

Paul did NOT say that it depended on God as to whether or not the jailer would be chosen.
Paul told him exactly how to become saved.