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  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

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    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

At the revelation of Jesus Christ...

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Daniel 11:
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.


Anyone care to take the path above for the time to come?


I'm thinkin' not for most.


ALL are always quite secure in their present 'rest.'



s
 
Well correct me if I'm wrong here.. you said that I have no clue concerning these matters and yet I've expounded a fair amount with respect to the things which shall be hereafter.. even noting that there shall be scoffers in the last days who deny the promise of His coming..

That's a scriptural fact..

You have scoffed at all my commentary and openly stated that I have no clue..

So I give you the open floor.. have at it.. although I seriously doubt if you'll expound upon these things.. imo you'll simply continue to scoff at the literal belief that the Lord Jesus Christ is coming again in power and great glory.. in that Day, the Day of the LORD, the Day of Jesus Christ.

And I seriously don't have a clue how you get that idea from anything I've written.
 
14 The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.
15 Mine eyes are ever toward the Lord; for he shall pluck my feet out of the net.
 
The Revelation of Jesus Christ

Anyone else can obviously speak to these things which shall be hereafter as well.. there are many infinitely glorious things to come as they're described in these miraculous chapters of God's word..

The revelation is divided for us into the things which John has seen (the past), the things which are (the present), and the things which shall be hereafter (the future)..
 
Psalm 77:19
Thy way is in the sea, and thy path in the great waters, and thy footsteps are not known.

Isaiah 42:16
And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight.

These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them.
 
Re: The restoration of all things...

The continuing battle here in the end times forum leaves an impression. If i am wrong sorry i would hope i am wrong...
 
The MESSAGE from Jesus to the last church in the list of 7 was this:

Rev. 3:
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.


I might suggest that 'any' who can not and do not hear the rebuke can not and do not hear.


If the Lord loves you, HE REBUKES.


If the Lord loves you, HE CHASTENS.


In Daniel 11 we are shown that those who understand shall what?

They shall FALL.

It is distasteful for believers to FALL.

Yet Paul shows us the Way of God rests upon the WEAK and the MEEK.

Therefore he gloried in 'infirmities.'

"my strength is made perfect in weakness."

Is there one here in the state of reality?

"thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:"

My hand is raised on these matters.

What? You mean believers in a church are 'like' that?

Apparently so, and apparently there are matters of GAIN involved therein.

But, but, but God, rebuking ME? Believing ME?

"As many as I love, I rebuke -"

Who is even bothering to LISTEN?

s
 
The things which are...

IMO it's important for a believer to be aware of the things which are...

So what are some of the things which are.. Right here.. Right now..

Obviously the most important thing we should be aware of is that the LORD is building His church.. and that is based upon confessing Jesus of Nazareth as LORD.. As the gospel of God's Son continues to go out to all nations..

That in itself has been going on since the first Pentecost following the life, death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.. And this shall continue until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.. And we know that the LORD shall present it to Himself as a glorious church without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing.. When the marriage of the Lamb is come.

What else.. There's infinitely more we can speak of with respect to the things which are... Just as there is infinitely glorious things to speak on with respect to the things which shall be hereafter...

In that Day.. The Day of Jesus Christ..
 
The "book" of Revelation is composed - in part - of seven letters to seven specific, historical churches in western Turkey that were experiencing many of the same issues Paul addressed in his letters, not the least of which were the eating of meat offered to idols and false apostleship.

Any attempt to "spiritualize" the historicity of these churches and their unique problems destroys any rational interpretive foundation we have for understanding this book.

Obviously, therefore, I completely disagree with your assertion that we can even keep any of the prophecies of this book 2,000 years later, as it has all been fulfilled, just as was recorded in the first and last chapters:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:1-3 (NASB)

And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. Revelation 22:6 (NASB)

And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Revelation 22:10 (NASB)

"Soon" and "near" to them 2,000 years ago cannot possibly also mean "soon" and "near" to us 2,000 years later, or the words "soon" and "near" have no meaning whatsoever!

These words - so important to John that he began and concluded the book with them - are the very bedrock upon which any interpretation of Revelation must be founded, or there is no hope of understanding any of it at all!


I think you take a sincere, honest approach to Scripture (which is actually more important in God's eyes than knowing "correct" doctrine), but I believe you are missing two-thirds of who Christ is. You are focusing on the "type" - the "copy" and "shadow" - yet ignoring the fact that God's word is Christ, and Christ "Is, Was, and Is To Come." It is neither dispensational in character, nor is it preterist.


Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me..."

If we are crucified with Christ, then Christ is still being crucified 2,000 years after He was first crucified. You cannot be a Preterist and understand this verse at the same time:

Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which IS, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."


To properly understand the above verse necessitate that you also understand this verse:

1 John 4:17 "...As he [Christ] is, so are we in this world."


Anyone who emphasizes any one aspect of Christ at the expense of the others in their proper order, does not know what "As he is so are we in this world," means.


The saying, "the time IS at hand," will always be primary (IS at hand - not WILL BE at hand, or WAS at hand). The truth that Christ did indeed die for our sins in the past, will be in its proper secondary perspective, and the fact that He is coming to reign on the earth outwardly, will be in its proper position as the third thing to be considered when we consider who Jesus Christ is. The Jesus of the scripture is "IS, WAS and IS TO COME." In that order and always in His fullness. This is the order He gave us.


Therefore Pete (a.k.a. - Osgiliath) is neither a Preterist nor a futurist, or, as Eventide would say; a NOWist. Pete is an 'Is, Was and IS TO COME-ist.' Pete "reads and hears the words of this prophecy." Pete believes that "the time IS at hand to keep those things that are written therein."


Consequently, not being a Preterist, a Dispensationalist, or "a NOWist," Pete has (indeed, far from perfectly) "kept" the sayings to the churches in the first three chapters, because he has been "given" (given - nothing I did on my own) ears to hear what the spirit says to the churches." He has "repented of losing his first love... and he is dying daily." He has and is experiencing the removing of the seven seals by the Lamb, as he is "growing" in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.


Pete has, and is experiencing the seven trumpets within. He has, and is experiencing the fiery trials of the seven last plagues as they burn the beasts of Revelation 13, out of him, which is another way of describing; "destroying of the Man of Sin (Beast) within the Temple (which I am, and you are), with the Brightness of His coming."


Pete wants to be sure to tremble at these words:

Revelation 22:6 "And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."


This concluding verse sounds a whole lot like chapter one verse three, but there is even more similarity:

Revelation 22:7 "Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book."


Are you "keeping the sayings of the prophecy of this book?" These promised blessings are accompanied with a stern warning:

Revelation 22:18 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."



What is "your part" in this book? Or is this a book that was all fulfilled 2,000 years ago? Or may be the sayings of the prophecy of this book are all in the future? Then again maybe it is all "exclusively" right here and now?

John 6:63 "....The WORDS THAT I SPEAK unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT, and they are life."


Maybe the truth is that the words of the prophecy of this book ARE spiritual, as Jesus told us HIS WORDS ARE. Perhaps Heaven and Earth may pass away and "the time IS at hand," will still be true, to keep the sayings of the prophecy of this book. Maybe "the time HAS BEEN at hand," to keep the sayings of the prophecy of this book in the lives of God's elect for the past 2,000 years and counting.


This book is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ." It is not a book about "end-time" events; be it 70 AD, or in our future. The book is what the Title of the Book says it is; it REVEALS Jesus Christ to all of us within, at all times. These are His Words. And what did He tell us of His Words? Did He tell us they were for the past? Did He tell us they were for the future? Are they only for the present? Perhaps ALL OF THE ABOVE! Here is what He said about His Words:


Matthew 24:35 "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."


Christ says "the time IS at hand." He says this at the beginning of this book, and He repeats it with a warning at the end. I for one, believe Him. And I for one, will give His Words the emphasis He gives to them. I will not change that order (1. IS; 2. WAS; 3. IS TO COME), nor will I, with His help, add to or take away from those words.


How about you Gandalf Stormcrow ;)? Has Christ been coming all along? Will He yet set up His kingdom on earth? I believe He Is, Was, And Will.

Luke 17:11 "Neither shall they say, See here! or, see there! for, behold, the kingdom of God IS WITHIN YOU."


Revelation 22:20 "He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."
 
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Here IMO is a good example of a simple biblical mistake.. Taking the word of God out of its proper context.

For example.. If I speak of the things which shall be hereafter in the revelation of Jesus Christ (this would be from Rev 4 onward).. And I apply them to what's happening now.. Then I'm taking the word of God out of context.. I'm applying things which shall be hereafter to the things which are..

Simple but important mistake IMO.
 
The things which shall be hereafter

It's also important for the believer to understand the things which shall be hereafter IMO..

What are some of the things which shall be hereafter..?

The Day of The Lord..

The Lord coming a second time, apart from sin, for salvation..

The resurrection of the dead..

The Lord meeting the church of God in the air..

The marriage of the Lamb to His wife..

The Lord destroying the man of sin by the brightness of His coming..

The Lord delivering Israel..

We could go on and on.. there's infinitely more to come when the infinite One comes in that Day, at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
 
Originally posted by Eventide,

Here IMO is a good example of a simple biblical mistake.. Taking the word of God out of its proper context.

Do you know what proper context is?

Jesus said:

John 6:63 "....The WORDS THAT I SPEAK unto you, THEY ARE SPIRIT"


Do you even know what the Apostles - the writers of the New Testament -understood as being "proper context."

Would they pass your "test" for proper context?


Do the writers of the New Testament quote the Old Testament out of context?

Let us (with an open mind) check and see. :chin



Consider "the context" of the very first Old Testament Scripture quoted in the New Testament. Mary the mother of Jesus is pregnant, and the marriage has not yet been consummated.



Matthew 1:20-21 "That which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and you shall call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins."


We come now to the first Old Testament scripture quoted in the New Testament:

Matthew 1:23 "Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold a virgin shall be with child and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is God with us."


Was this scripture really written about Christ as Matthew says it was? Is that "the context" in which we find it?

Let's check "the context" Eventide. Today's method of scriptural interpretation teaches that the examination of the context is the primary rule for understanding the Word of God. This verse (Matthew 1:23) is quoted from Isaiah 7:14. It certainly does not follow today's commonly accepted rules for Scriptural interpretation, does it? It certainly wouldn't pass your test for proper "context".

The context shows that this statement is addressed to King Ahaz, the king of Judah!

To the natural undiscerning eye, there is nothing here to connect this to the birth of Christ. Ahaz was concerned about the conspiracy by the northern kingdom of Israel under King Pekah with Rezin, the King of Syria against Ahaz. What possible sign would the birth of the Messiah some 480 years later be to Ahaz?


The need (the context) was an immediate urgent concern.

Yet Matthew, without explanation or apology, applies this verse to the virgin birth of Christ.


The second chapter of Matthew also contains prophecies which appear to be taken completely out of context, and because the Word of God is to be understood Spiritually, it also would not pass your "context" scrutiny.

It tells of the wise men coming from the east to Jerusalem searching for "the King of the Jews" (Matthew 2:2). Herod, after inquiring of the chief priests and scribes, tells the wise men that the prophets say the Messiah is to be born in Bethlehem:


Matthew 2:8 "And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when you have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also."


The wise men find Christ, worship him, present him with presents:

Matthew 2:12 "...and being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way."


After the wise men depart:

Matthew 2:13 "the angel of the Lord appears to Joseph in a dream saying, Arise, take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt and be you there until I bring you word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him."



Now we come to our next out-of-context prophecy that would never pass your context test, nor would it pass for proper context with any self-respecting Preterist:

Matthew 2:14-15 "And when he arose he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son."

This was a quote from Hosea 11:1 which reads:

Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a small child, then I loved him and called my son out of Egypt."

In context, Hosea is simply saying that as Israel was being called out of Egypt, they were in the process of departing from God:

Hosea 11:2 "they sacrificed unto Baalim and burned incense to graven images."


Yet Matthew once again, without explanation, applies this verse to Christ's return from Egypt. Surely we would wonder WHY DOES MATTHEW NOT EXPLAIN HIMSELF?

Let us continue with Eventide's test for passages that are "totally out of context" and "you can go anywhere with that" application of scripture.

An even greater violence to the rules of "proper hermeneutics" is contained in the very next verses:

Matthew 2:16 "Then Herod, when he saw he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time that he had diligently enquired of the wise men."

Notice what Matthew says next:

Matthew 2:17-18 "Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet saying, In Ramah was there a voice heard, lamentation and weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and would not be comforted, because they are not."


Now Ramah, as Matthew very well knew, is nowhere near Bethlehem. It is not even in Judah, but is in Ephraim. Bethlehem is south and west of Jerusalem, and Ramah is many miles away, north and east of Jerusalem.

Furthermore, Judah was not born of Rachel but of Leah :confused. All of this is very well known by Matthew, yet he once again WITHOUT EXPLANATION quotes this Scripture from Jeremiah 31:15 and applies it to the event in and around Bethlehem in the time of Christ:

Jeremiah 31:15 "Thus says the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not."



Mark takes this same rule of scriptural exegesis in the first three verses of his gospel (Mark 1:1-3). Quoting Malachi 3:1:

Mark 1:1-3 "As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face which shall prepare the way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, prepare ye the way of the Lord, make His paths straight."

This statement by Mark concerning John the Baptist is actually two separate prophets who prophesied years apart (uh oh - this is an absolute no-no when it comes to "proper context" - look out :o)


Verse 2 is taken from Malachi 3:1. Mark only quotes half of Verse 1. Checking the context, Mark left off:

[Last part of Verse 1] "and the Lord WHOM YE SEEK, shall suddenly come to His temple, even the messenger of the covenant, WHOM YE DELIGHT IN: behold he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts."


Verses 2 and 3 say He will purify the sons of Levi when He comes; "…whom you seek…", "…in whom ye delight…", "…and He shall purify the sons of Levi; and purge them as gold and silver…"



None of this would appear to the natural mind to apply to Christ's coming in the flesh when the "sons of Levi", the priests, had Him crucified.

Yet we are told by the Holy Spirit that the first half of Verse 1 refers to John the Baptist. Is this just a whim on God's part? Once again, Mark doesn't bother to explain himself. He, like Matthew, applies scriptures to Christ which we would say are taken "out of context."

Obviously, none of these New Testament writers would pass your "context" examination, and there is a reason for this. "The WORDS I SPEAK UNTO YOU ARE SPIRIT":


1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."


You said it yourself; Spiritualizing Scripture is FOOLISHNESS to you. Yet, this is the ONLY way to understand Christ's Words.
 
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You are focusing on the "type" - the "copy" and "shadow" - yet ignoring the fact that God's word is Christ, and Christ "Is, Was, and Is To Come." It is neither dispensational in character, nor is it preterist.
The Old Testament is "type" - the "copy" and "shadow" and that was all fulfilled in the New. Therefore, that which was "type" - the "copy" and "shadow" - having been fulfilled - certainly is preterist (past).

I have no idea where you're going with this, but I'm not really interested in chasing new doctrines down rabbit holes.

Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me..."
If we are crucified with Christ, then Christ is still being crucified 2,000 years after He was first crucified. You cannot be a Preterist and understand this verse at the same time:
That's not what the Bible teaches.

For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another-- He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:24-28 (NKJV)

But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. Hebrews 10:12-14 (NKJV)

The idea that Christ is being crucified repeatedly as an on-going act of propitiation for sin is just flat-out wrong. I'm not going there.

Finally, simple words like "soon" and "near" don't need deconstruction. They stand on their own as simple and direct and to be taken as literally as they were given. The Bible isn't as complicated as you make it.

We're done.
 
Originally posted by Stormcrow,

The idea that Christ is being crucified repeatedly as an on-going act of propitiation for sin is just flat-out wrong. I'm not going there.


Galatians 2:20 "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me..."

Well, that's up to you of course.
 
I'll say it again as simply as possible..

Concerning the Revelation of Jesus Christ..

The things which shall be hereafter must not be confounded with the things which are..

Chapter 4 begins the portion of the revelation pertaining to the things which shall be hereafter.. Applying those things to 'today' is essentially applying the things which shall be hereafter, to the present, or to the things which are..

Here's a simple example..

Revelation 11

Who in their right Christian mind is going to explain this as happening now or in the past ?

Go ahead and try it.. Seriously.. Give it a test drive..
 
The things which shall be hereafter must not be confounded with the things which are..

"Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things. Revelation 1:19 (NASB)

The things which are to take place after those things that John saw (as a disciple and apostle) and the things which are (the things in the letters he was writing to the churches) all were to happen "soon" and were - in fact - "at hand" (near)!

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near. Revelation 1:1-3 (NASB)

And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place. Revelation 22:6 (NASB)

And he *said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Revelation 22:10 (NASB)

And if the events John prophesied were soon and at hand to them, it is impossible that they would be soon and near to us.

Either the ascended, glorified Lord Jesus Christ knew what He told John to write and meant for him to write these words "soon" and "near", or He did not.

Jesus said it. I believe it. That settles it.

Your mileage may vary. :shame
 
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