Atheist in a Christian Den.

[Artie]

God made it simple for the believer to understand and we try to complicate it... This is meant to be respectful to show how simple it can be explained.

Then please explain simply "if the Bible is true how do you get 26000 million animals on the Ark and if there were fewer animals how did we get to 6.5 million species of land animals except for evolution?" I do understand that it is simple. It was written by iron age people for iron age people and might be good enough for six year olds. But we are adults and we can't stay on the level of a six year old forever. (No offense.)

 

[farouk]

I have to jump in here. I was explaining this to my 6 year old granddaughter the other day....

Creation of heaven and earth​

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. ​

Gen 1:1 (KJV)

Creation of the light​

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light​

Gen 1:3 (KJV)

Creation of the firmament​

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters​

Gen 1:6 (KJV)

The earth separated from the waters​

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so​

Gen 1:9 (KJV)

Creation of the sun, moon and stars​

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: ​

Gen 1:14 (KJV)

Creation of fish, fowl, beasts and cattle ​

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. ​

Gen 1:20 (KJV)

Creation man in the image of God​

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. ​

Gen 1:26 (KJV)

Provision for food​

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat​

Gen 1:29 (KJV)


Then we sang that song: Jesus Loves me yes He does, cuz the Bible tells me so. She didn't have any problems understanding this....



God made it simple for the believer to understand and we try to complicate it...


This is meant to be respectful to show how simple it can be explained.

BornAgain:

This is a good answer!

The believer's starting point is the fact of Creation. Period.

 

[BornAgain]

Then please explain simply "if the Bible is true how do you get 26000 million animals on the Ark and if there were fewer animals how did we get to 6.5 million species of land animals except for evolution?" I do understand that it is simple. It was written by iron age people for iron age people and might be good enough for six year olds. But we are adults and we can't stay on the level of a six year old forever. (No offense.)

I understand...It wasn't meant to mean we have to have a 6 year old mentality. Noah did as God commanded, 2 of every creature:

9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah. Gen 7:8-10 (KJV)


2 of every flesh:

15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life Gen 7:15 (KJV)


Genesis 9:18-19 (KJV)

18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan.
19 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.



The Bible never says he put 26000 animals on the Ark. Noah put what God commanded him to do.


Hebrews 11:6-7 (KJV)
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

 

[Drew]

I do understand that it is simple. It was written by iron age people for iron age people and might be good enough for six year olds. But we are adults and we can't stay on the level of a six year old forever. (No offense.)

I have only read a couple of posts, but I would like to chime in.

With all respect, it is very clear (to those of us who have invested a lot of time and effort in studying the Bible) that is most certainly not "for six year olds". Some of the material in the Bible is exceedingly, sophisticated, subtle, and was clearly written by minds far greater than those possessed by modern day adults, let aong "six year olds".

Now to be fair - and here I may well get into trouble with some of posters with whom you are disagreeing - many modern day Christian are not willing (or able) to do the hard work of engaging the Biblical content in all its richness and sophistication. My point? Well, you may well be reacting to how many Christians represent the Scriptures to you, and not to the actual Biblical narrative itself.

The Bible may be many things, but aimed at childlike and primitive minds, it certainly is not.

 

[farouk]

PS: BornAgain: I would never have thought from your pic that you have a 6 year old granddaughter! Blessings.

 

[BornAgain]

PS: BornAgain: I would never have thought from your pic that you have a 6 year old granddaughter! Blessings.

Lol, thanks...

 

[rrowell]

Then please explain simply "if the Bible is true how do you get 26000 million animals on the Ark and if there were fewer animals how did we get to 6.5 million species of land animals except for evolution?" I do understand that it is simple. It was written by iron age people for iron age people and might be good enough for six year olds. But we are adults and we can't stay on the level of a six year old forever. (No offense.)

Artie,

I can show you 66 books under one cover with 1189 chapters and written by more than 40 authors and has been in existence and unchanged for more almost 2000 years with not one contradiction...

You show me anything close to that in science books... then ill have a little more respect for science...

 

[Artie]

I understand...It wasn't meant to mean we have to have a 6 year old mentality. Noah did as God commanded, 2 of every creature:

9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah. Gen 7:8-10 (KJV)

2 of every flesh:

15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life Gen 7:15 (KJV)[/

You forgot Genesis 7:2
Of every clean beast thou shalt take thee by sevens, the male and his female.

Genesis 9:18-19 (KJV)

18 And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan.
19 These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.

The Bible never says he put 26000

26000 million

animals on the Ark. Noah put what God commanded him to do.

Then there is no way those animals could possibly repopulate the world if not for evolution creating millions of new species in a few thousand years.

 

[BornAgain]

You forgot Genesis 7:2
Of every clean beast thou shalt take thee by sevens, the male and his female.


26000 million

Then there is no way those animals could possibly repopulate the world if not for evolution creating millions of new species in a few thousand years.

Genesis 7:2

Of every clean beast—So we find the distinction between clean and unclean animals existed long before the Mosaic law. This distinction seems to have been originally designed to mark those animals which were proper for sacrifice and food, from those that were not.
—Adam Clarke's Commentary

I cannot answer how the millions of new creatures populate but with God, all things are possible.

Matthew 19:26
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

 

[rrowell]

Genesis 7:2

Of every clean beast—So we find the distinction between clean and unclean animals existed long before the Mosaic law. This distinction seems to have been originally designed to mark those animals which were proper for sacrifice and food, from those that were not.
—Adam Clarke's Commentary

I cannot answer how the millions of new creatures populate but with God, all things are possible.

Matthew 19:26
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

AMEN - kinda makes all us smarties look pretty stupid LoL...

 

[Artie]

With all respect, it is very clear (to those of us who have invested a lot of time and effort in studying the Bible) that is most certainly not "for six year olds". Some of the material in the Bible is exceedingly, sophisticated, subtle, and was clearly written by minds far greater than those possessed by modern day adults, let aong "six year olds".

No offense. BornAgain said "I was explaining this to my 6 year old granddaughter the other day...." and I got the impression she meant Genesis. If not I take it back.

Now to be fair - and here I may well get into trouble with some of posters with whom you are disagreeing - many modern day Christian are not willing (or able) to do the hard work of engaging the Biblical content in all its richness and sophistication. My point? Well, you may well be reacting to how many Christians represent the Scriptures to you, and not to the actual Biblical narrative itself.

Yes that is my major problem. Six different Bibles containing anywhere from 24 to 81 books 11 different Creationisms and between 30 and 40 000 denominations and I'm supposed to keep track of that and understand who believes what!? I tell you, it's a nightmare! ;)

 

[Artie]

Genesis 7:2

Of every clean beast—So we find the distinction between clean and unclean animals existed long before the Mosaic law. This distinction seems to have been originally designed to mark those animals which were proper for sacrifice and food, from those that were not.
—Adam Clarke's Commentary

I cannot answer how the millions of new creatures populate...

That is ok. My point has been made. The only way you could get to 6.5 million species in a few thousand years is with evolution producing them. So people who speak against evolution better hope they're wrong otherwise the Noah story is wrong.

 

[farouk]

That is ok. My point has been made. The only way you could get to 6.5 million species in a few thousand years is with evolution producing them. So people who speak against evolution better hope they're wrong otherwise the Noah story is wrong.

A: You ignore the possibility of species, sub-species and genuses, etc. over the course of the years, in order to propose your evolutionary theory which has NEVER been proved.

 

[cleanfreak]

That is ok. My point has been made. The only way you could get to 6.5 million species in a few thousand years is with evolution producing them. So people who speak against evolution better hope they're wrong otherwise the Noah story is wrong.

why cannot God create more along the way?

 

[BornAgain]

That is ok. My point has been made. The only way you could get to 6.5 million species in a few thousand years is with evolution producing them. So people who speak against evolution better hope they're wrong otherwise the Noah story is wrong.

Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations.

I didn't say I did not believe in evolution, I see life evolving everyday around me. But it had to start somewhere.

I have not taken offense to anything, we are just here to learn and have been given the gift to give our opinions or beliefs.

 

[Artie]

A: You ignore the possibility of species, sub-species and genuses, etc. over the course of the years, in order to propose your evolutionary theory which has NEVER been proved.

There are 6.5 million species of land animals here today. For a population to have a chance of survival in the wild the average number of animals is 4000. We are talking species. That gives 26000 million animals on the boat. Or if there were a lesser number of animals, evolution must have produced the rest of the species in a few thousand years. Take your pick. If you believe the Noah story.

 

[Artie]

why cannot God create more along the way?

And if He did where does it say so in the Bible? And what was the point of the Ark if He can just manufacture animals anyway without evolution? In Genesis it says that He created the animals. Does it say that after the flood He started over again creating animals? And when did He stop creating them? Is He still creating them?

 

[cleanfreak]

And if He did where does it say so in the Bible? And what was the point of the Ark if He can just manufacture animals anyway without evolution? In Genesis it says that He created the animals. Does it say that after the flood He started over again creating animals? And when did He stop creating them? Is He still creating them?

Who says the Bible holds all the info to what God has done? Methinks it even states there are not enough books to contain all the miracles that were done....and that was even back then.

Who knows what he is creating. God is sovereign. If man in his finite wisdom can create new things each and every day, methinks God can do this and more.

 

[Artie]

Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations.

I didn't say I did not believe in evolution, I see life evolving everyday around me. But it had to start somewhere.

True. But that doesn't involve evolution. That would be abiogenesis or Biblical Creation or panspermia or aliens creating life on Earth or any number of theories.

I have not taken offense to anything, we are just here to learn and have been given the gift to give our opinions or beliefs.

Yes. The difference between belief and science is simply that science uses evidence and belief uses faith. Put simply it is the difference between looking left and right before you cross the street to collect observational evidence indicating whether it is safe to cross. When you have enough evidence that there are no cars you cross the road. You base your whole existence on that the evidence and the conclusions you have drawn are correct and that you won't get run over. Belief and faith is different. You just stand by the road, close your eyes and ears and believe and have faith and possibly get some inner feeling whether it is safe to cross or not. I prefer the first option... ;) What I'm trying to say is that in life generally as in crossing the street if you don't use the scientific method based on observation and evidence people who do won't understand why you don't.

 

[farouk]

Artie: If your purpose is to come here and promote evolution and secular thinking, why did you come?

There have been many scientists who also have held to Creation.