Baptism and Salvation

[blueberry pie]

Water Baptism is NOT a Requirement for Salvation

(1 Corinthians 1:17)
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

If water baptism was a requirement for salvation Christ would have sent Paul the apostle to baptize. However, Paul was not sent to water baptize but to preach the gospel of which water baptism is not an essential element.

(Romans 1:16-17)
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

(Ephesians 2:8-9)
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Works, including that of water baptism, do not save. We are saved by grace through FAITH in Jesus Christ.

(John 3:3-7)
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

The meaning of the words "born of water" is only understood within its own passage context.

Being "born of water" refers to natural birth, as Jesus mentioned being "born of the flesh". Water baptism was not spoken of here and was not the topic of discussion. Jesus was answering Nicodemus' question "can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?".

Examine the context of words...

born of water = that which is born of flesh is flesh = (first) time in mother's womb

born of the Spirit = that which is born of the Spirit is spirit = born again

Natural birth is obviously the first birth as the first time we were born was not when we were water baptized. The Spiritual rebirth is being born again.

To assert that water baptism is being born of water has theological difficulties. Christians do not experience three births: natural birth, water baptism and Spirit baptism. Christ said a man must be born again but He did not say we must be born again and again.

Also, as seen from passages of Scripture elsewhere, Spirit and water baptisms are neither synonymous nor simultaneous.

(1 Peter 3:21)
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Belief in the completed work of Jesus Christ produces a clean conscience and saves (see Hebrews 9:8-14). Therefore, it is the faith in regard to baptism, not the water, that saves us.

(Acts 22:16)
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Sins are washed away calling on the name of the Lord and not by water baptism.

(Acts 2:38)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

"for the remission of sins" should be understood as "because of the remission of sins". We are baptized because we have received remission of sins, which is, forgiveness of our sins. We cannot be baptized TO BE forgiven of sins. God forgives us when we repent of our sins before we are water baptized. He does NOT withhold his forgiveness until we are baptized.

(1 Corinthians 12:13)
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

(Acts 8:14-16)
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

9Romans 6:3-4)
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

(Galatians 3:27)
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

All of these passages refer to SPIRIT baptism, not water baptism.

(Mark 16:16)
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

We are not damned for not being water baptized. Unbelievers are damned. Those who are saved are water baptized consequential to their belief in Jesus Christ.

(Acts 10:47-48)
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

In this passage is seen that the Holy Spirit is given to believers BEFORE water baptism. Hence, water baptism is a resulting act of obedience from faith. It cannot be a salvation requirement.

Conclusion
Put your complete trusting faith in Jesus Christ to save you from your sins. After you believe in Him with all your heart be water baptized as a testimony that you do put your complete trust in Him.

(Excerpt from http://www.dokimos.org/immersed.html)

 

[Charlotte]

Blueberry Pie,

Amen, you are so right.
about baptism not being a requirement for salvation. I don't know why anyone would want to be baptized, it serves no purpose whatsoever.

Charlotte

 

[blueberry pie]

Well, I do believe that Baptism is a commandment but that it is part of our Christian walk - takes places AFTER we are saved.

 

[Collier]

Works, including that of water baptism, do not save

Just show ONE verse that says baptism is a work!

(John 3:3-7)

READ the passage. In verse 3 Jesus is talking of a SPIRITUAL place! Nicodemus understands in a physical sense. The born again is one event consisting of two things. Again, READ!To enter kingdom you MUST be born of water and Spirit. To say this is physical birth has no bases in fact. By the way, what about those who are born of a "dry" birth?

Therefore, it is the faith in regard to baptism, not the water, that saves us.

The water does not save. It is the blood of Christ. The water of baptism is the point at which God applies that blood to cleanse your sins. As we find in Acts 22:16 (which you butchered) and Romans 6:3-9

Sins are washed away calling on the name of the Lord and not by water baptism.

Like I said, butchered. Any one who reads this without blinders on knows that the baptism is what WASHED away the sins in Acts 22:16

"for the remission of sins" should be understood as "because of the remission of sins

It is sad that you believe this because someone has taught you this. The Greek word "eis" is NEVER translated "because of". This word points toward something. It NEVER looks back. We have one other verse that is almost identical to this sentence in Acts 2:38 and that is Matthew 26:28 where Jesus says His blood is shed for the remission of sins. So taking your interpretation of Acts 2:38, you have Jesus saying that He shed His blood because sins had already been forgiven. Do you believe this? If not, then you cannot believe Acts 2:38 is "because of" but is in fact "for" or "in order to" remission of sins.

• I do not down play the necessity of faith or repentance in any way. However, God has often used water as a dividing line between being lost and being saved. Consider these examples:

1.Noah's flood. The flood cleansed the earth of wickedness. Baptism cleanses us of wickedness (I Peter 3:21).

• 2. The Red Sea. This water separated the Israelites from freedom. They were in bondage but once they crossed the water they were free. We are in the bondage of sin until we cross the water of baptism to be free (Romans 6).

3. Naaman's leprocy. Read carefully II Kings 5:1-14! Naaman had faith that he could be cleansed. Yet that faith was not enough. He had to follow God's will by dipping in the water to be cleansed. We today are cleansed by the blood of Christ through baptism (Acts 22:16).

• 4. The blind man of John 9:1-7. He was told to wash in the pool of Siloam to be healed. Those waters stood between him and a divine cleansing.

5. People today. Jesus says, He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved (Mark 16:16). God has placed the water of baptism as a dividing line between those that would be saved and those that are lost.

 

[antitox]

This has been a repeated subject across all the message boards on the net. Water baptism is the identification with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection to signify the changed life of a believer. Its purpose is a public declaration before men. Jesus has stated that whoever would confess him before men, He would confess before the Father and vice versa if one denied Him. So baptism was included in the quote in Mark 16:16 and not in other places. I was saved long before I ever got baptized and I KNEW I was saved. In some cultures, if anyone is baptized as a Christian, they are deserted by their families because they've identified publicly with Christ.

peace

 

[JM]

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

water = washing of regeneration

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



Strong
er'-gon
From ergo (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.

ergon
Thayer Definition:
1) business, employment, that which any one is occupied
1a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a primary (but obsolete) ergo (to work)
Citing in TDNT: 2:635, 251

 

[bondservant]

i thought i'd help out collier by covering the scriptures that blueberry pie quoted.

1 cor. 1:17
read verses 10-16. is paul talking about baptism or divisions in the church? divisions in the church. what does he say? he's glad he only baptized a few. why? because baptism isn't necessary? no. then why did he say this? because if he personally had baptized more of the members then more would claim to be followers of him. so, does this passage make sense if baptism is necessary? yes. what are the ramifications of paul's sarcasm in verse 13 ("was paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of paul?")? paul is hinting at the obvious answers: Christ was crucified for us, and we are baptized in His name. both are necessary for our salvation.

romans 1:16-17
what does this say about those who do not believe? that the power of God for salvation is not unto them. what about those who believe? it is the power of God for salvation unto them. ok. so all who believe will be saved? well, the demons believe (james 2:19), and certainly they won't be saved. why just say "believe" then? look at the koine greek in a decent lexicon or look at the amplified bible. adherence, trust and obedience are implied.

ephesians 2:8-9
we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. baptism is not our work, but God's. it is a passive act for us. speaking of works, do we need to confess Christ's name before men? do we need to be faithful until death?

john 3:3-7
collier covered this sufficiently. and what is a "dry" birth? if you don't understand what he's saying about baptism being birth of the water and the Spirit, just think about it this way: he didn't say born of the water and born of the spirit. does that make sense?

1 peter 3:21
what do you suppose is the "figure" mentioned in this verse? look at verse 20. the "figure" is that of noah and his family being saved by the water. "the like figure whereunto baptism doth also now save us." he has to explain that it doesn't save us by removing dirt from our physical bodies, as immersion could imply. blueberry pie said that "belief in the completed work of Jesus Christ produces a clean conscience and saves." where is the likeness with noah? if it is belief in God, then what does water have to do with anything? i looked at hebrews 9:8-14. it talks about sacrificing animals and the superiority of Jesus' sacrifice.

acts 22:16
blueberry pie simply chose to ignore baptism in this verse. as collier said, he butchered this verse. as he did with acts 2:38, he interpreted the scripture based on his own opinion; that is, he interpreted it with a foregone conclusion. why mention baptism if it is not of direct importance?

acts 2:38
collier addressed this issue well. the bias is all too clear in his rendering of the scripture. underlining and capitalizing does not make your opinion fact.

1 corinthians 12:13
is this really about Spirit baptism? on the day of pentecost and in the house of cornelius, they experienced Spirit baptism. are they the only ones in the body of Christ?

acts 8:14-16
the apostles came to those in samaria because they had not received miraculous gifts of the Spirit. they had, however, been baptized in the name of the Lord. through this they had received the remission of sins and yes, the gift of the Holy Spirit. that's why they weren't baptized again.

(quick note: i think there is a clear distinction between the baptism of the Holy Spirit, as on pentecost and at the house of cornelius, both which accompanied new dispensation of Christ's mercy (first to the jews, and then to the gentiles) and the baptism for the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. that's another thread.)

romans 6:3-4
all this imagery of death, burial and resurrection and our likeness to Christ in these things. one claims that this likeness is acted out, but not in baptism? we are told that it is through baptism we are united with him in his burial and his resurrection. read verse 5. read verses 6-11.

galatians 3:27
the argument concerning this scripture (and the previous 3) is baseless. it is a blanket statement that relieves one of doubt.

mark 16:16
consider Jesus' words. where does the person who believes but is not baptized fit in? with those who are baptized? that is a direct contradiction. it seems that baptism is a part of belief. Jesus mentions them together.

acts 10:47-48
those in the house of Cornelius received the baptism of the Holy Spirit. they spoke in tongues and magnified God. this was so that the jews would believe that salvation was for the gentiles as well. this is obvious in verse 45. it explains that they believed salvation was for the gentiles because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out upon them as it was on the apostles on the day of pentecost. those of the house of cornelius were not saved yet. that is why peter "commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord" (v. 48).

conclusion
blueberry pie tells us to "be water baptized as a testimony that you do put your complete trust in Him." where is this stated in the scripture? we are told that through communion we proclaim Christ's death until He comes (although this is not its sole purpose). but are we told that baptism is to serve that purpose? if so, where?

in response to jason:
"water=washing of regeneration". "washing=?"

john 15:3
Jesus is speaking to his disciples. are we to assume that these words apply directly to us as well? Jesus is also speaking before He the institution of baptism. He also has the power to grant salvation, just as he promised the thief on the cross beside Him that He would be beside him in paradise (again before the institution of baptism, which came on the day of pentecost). note: judas iscariot was not present at this time (13:30).

titus 3:5
baptism is God's work, not ours. He cleanses us. confession and repentance are required of us, too. are they works? see my comment on eph. 2:8-9.

1 timothy 4:16- "take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."

in Christ,
stephen

 

[evanman]

Blueberry Pie,

Amen, you are so right.
about baptism not being a requirement for salvation. I don't know why anyone would want to be baptized, it serves no purpose whatsoever.

Charlotte

Water baptism is a command to both the church and the repentant sinner.

Ac 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Ac 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Why would anyone seeking to follow Jesus Christ refuse baptiism.

Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

 

[4runner]

Water baptism is (symbolic) of a new life...lets not confuse whats symbolic with a repentant heart. But, common sense tells me that God is a god of the heart...if i get caught up in legalism i truly miss what he is all about. Yes, get baptized...but will it send you to hell if you dont? Dont think so. It's the relationship Jesus is after. You must be born again. There are people who get baptized everyday who've never known Jesus. They just go through a ritual for fire insurance. On the other hand you can have "unchurched" people who are in right relationship with Jesus who may not have been baptized in flesh, but in heart.

 

[evanman]

Baptism is for those that are repentant. It has no significance for anyone else.

It is the Lord Jesus that commanded the churches to Baptise, and it is taught as part of the Gospel message in the Writings of the Apostles.

If we are commanded to be Baptised then why disobey?

I for one do not believe in Baptismal Regeneration, however surely to refuse to be Baptised places a person in the state of rebellion against God!

 

[4runner]

I think that it would be in accordance to your depth of faith.

 

[blueberry pie]

READ the passage. In verse 3 Jesus is talking of a SPIRITUAL place! Nicodemus understands in a physical sense. The born again is one event consisting of two things. Again, READ!To enter kingdom you MUST be born of water and Spirit. To say this is physical birth has no bases in fact. By the way, what about those who are born of a "dry" birth?

I was a member of a Pentecostal church for nearly 10 years, a member of a Baptist church for 8 years, and the last 3 years, Pentecostal again. In some Pentecostal churches, congregants are taught that "born of water" means Baptism, whereas in the Baptist churches, congregants are taught that "born of water" means our natural, physical birth. So, Collier, what denomination are you?

Just last week in church, my Pastor said, "See how the 'w' on 'water' is not capitolized whereas the 'S' on 'Spirit' is capitolized? This proves that you have to be be baptised in order to be saved!!!!!" To me, his point made no sense, but still the belief is there. I had always read that passages and automatically assumed that "born of water" was our natural birth and that "born again" is our Spiritual birth. It wasn't until some Pentecostals came along saying otherwise that I saw a different interpretation of that Scripture.

But, my point remains, are we to be reborn TWICE before we are actually saved?! Why didn't Jesus say, "except a man be born of the womb, born of water, and born of the Spirit ..." Here is the passage again:

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (John 3:3-7)

The first time Jesus said you must be born again, Nicodemus was confused and asked how he could possibly go back into his mother's womb and be reborn. So, Jesus clarified and said, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter God's Kingdom.

Here's where you say that "born of water" means baptism. It can't be true because what does Jesus say next? That which is born of flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.

Clearly, "born of water" is the same as "born of flesh". Therefore, "born of water" means our natural, physical birth - it has nothing to do with Baptism.

 

[Collier]

So, Collier, what denomination are you?

I am not in a denomintaion. I belong to the church Jesus built.

"See how the 'w' on 'water' is not capitolized whereas the 'S' on 'Spirit' is capitolized? This proves that you have to be be baptised in order to be saved!!!!!" To me, his point made no sense

It makes no sense to me either!

But, my point remains, are we to be reborn TWICE before we are actually saved?!

See the two post already explaining this passage.

Therefore, "born of water" means our natural, physical verse - it has nothing to do with Baptism.

Here we have the Master teacher. He is telling a grown man that if he is not born physically that he cannot be saved. WOW! Nicodemus understands in a physical nature while Jesus was speaking of a spiritual nature. Thus Jesus explains, one only born physically cannot enter into the kingdom but one must be born of water (baptism) and the Spirit (one event-See Acts 2:38) to enter the kingdom. Verse is Acts 2:38 8)

• I didn't mean to be ugly with the WOW. I will not remove it because some may have already seen it. So I will leave it so those who do read will understand why I am writing this . Sorry if I offended anyone.

 

[blueberry pie]

The water does not save. It is the blood of Christ. The water of baptism is the point at which God applies that blood to cleanse your sins. As we find in Acts 22:16 (which you butchered) and Romans 6:3-9

Sins are washed away calling on the name of the Lord and not by water baptism.

You said so yourself, "The water does not save. It is the blood of Christ." And then you go and contradict yourself by saying, "The water of baptism is the point at which God applies that blood to cleanse your sins. Therefore, it is the water that saves, if what you say is true. Okay, so where does the Bible say that anyway?

Due to cirucumstances, I didn't get baptised until 10 years after I gave my life to the Lord. I know that He saved me when I first repented and confessed His Name. I know that with every ounce of my being.

We have one other verse that is almost identical to this sentence in Acts 2:38 and that is Matthew 26:28 where Jesus says His blood is shed for the remission of sins. So taking your interpretation of Acts 2:38, you have Jesus saying that He shed His blood because sins had already been forgiven. Do you believe this? If not, then you cannot believe Acts 2:38 is "because of" but is in fact "for" or "in order to" remission of sins.

For this, I apologize. The post I started this thread with was a copy and paste article. But, you have made an interesting point here - Jesus said, His blood is shed for the remission of sins, so, why then, would Baptism be needed for the remission of sins if Christ's death on Calvary already accomplished that?

• I do not down play the necessity of faith or repentance in any way. However, God has often used water as a dividing line between being lost and being saved. Consider these examples:

1.Noah's flood.

• 2. The Red Sea.

3. Naaman's leprocy.

• 4. The blind man

5. People today. Jesus says, He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved (Mark 16:16). God has placed the water of baptism as a dividing line between those that would be saved and those that are lost.

Interesting attempt but there are MANY other stories in the Bible dividing the saved and the lost that do not include water. Don't get me wrong, I agree that a new believer is to be baptised, obeying the words of Christ. If a new believer refused to get baptised, well, that rebellion would indicate the person is not a true Christian. Jesus said we would obey his commands if we truly love him. If we don't obey his commands, "the love of the Father is not in us".

As for Mark 16:16, you didn't quote the entire verse. Here it is:

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk. 16:16)

It doesn't say, "but that believeth not AND IS NOT BAPTISED shall be damned", just "he that believeth not."

We mustn't forget many other passages, such as Romans 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

 

[blueberry pie]

romans 1:16-17
what does this say about those who do not believe? that the power of God for salvation is not unto them. what about those who believe? it is the power of God for salvation unto them. ok. so all who believe will be saved? well, the demons believe (james 2:19), and certainly they won't be saved. why just say "believe" then?

Lots of people believe in God who aren't saved, just as the Demons aren't saved for merely believing there is a God. Read Romans 10:9, If thou shalt confess with thy mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, you shall be saved. All throughout the New Testament, we find that one must repent and confess the name of the Lord in order to be saved. The demons certainly don't do that. Neither do the many people around me who believe in God but who have never repented and confessed the name of Jesus.

ephesians 2:8-9
we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. baptism is not our work, but God's. it is a passive act for us. speaking of works, do we need to confess Christ's name before men? do we need to be faithful until death?

We are saved by GRACE, says the Scripture, not by works (baptism, etc.). There are churches that take things a step further and say that one must also speak in tongues before they are saved. Then there are others still who say that once saved, you can lose your Salvation at the drop of a hat if you aren't "good enough" or "holy enough".

why mention baptism if it is not of direct importance?

Of course it is very important. Jesus commanded that we be baptised.

we are told that it is through baptism we are united with him in his burial and his resurrection.

I agree.

it seems that baptism is a part of belief. Jesus mentions them together.

Of course, if a believer refuses to get baptised, there's rebellion there and I would question whether or not that person had genuinely given their life to the Lord in the first place.

 

[Collier]

You said so yourself, "The water does not save. It is the blood of Christ." And then you go and contradict yourself by saying, "The water of baptism is the point at which God applies that blood to cleanse your sins. Therefore, it is the water that saves, if what you say is true. Okay, so where does the Bible say that anyway?

It is only a contradiction from a worldly view. Read 1 Peter 3:18-21 without a desire to deny what it says. "18.For Christ also died for the sins once for all, the just and the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19. in which he went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of god kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, where brought safely through the waters. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (NASB)

• Jesus died for all men. God is not willing that any should perish but that ALL might come to repentance. So, if Jesus died for all men (shed His blood for all) there must be some point at which the blood is applied to someone to be saved. Some say faith, some say God will save everyone, the Bible says in baptism.

Romans 6:3, "Know ye not , that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death." Jesus' death was were the precious blood was shed for sins. We are BAPTIZED into that death were the blood was shed. That is were the blood has been applied.Back to 1 Peter now. Baptism does not remove dirt from your body, it lets you stand before God with a clear conscience from sin.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mk. 16:16)

Jesus clearly set forth the requirements to be saved. Baptism is included in what we must do. Why do you want to focus on what one must do to be damned? I don't want to be damned. So I want to do what Jesus says to be saved (believe and be baptized). With that said, it was not necessary for Jesus to include and not baptized. Why would anyone that does not believe in Jesus want to be baptized? Jesus knew that. He knew that anyone that does not believe in Him will not repent, confess Him, be baptized, live faithful or anything He has commanded.

We mustn't forget many other passages, such as Romans 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.

My first response to this passage is AMEN. Hopefully you understand the difference in faith. The devils believe but they do not have obedient faith. We must have this obedient faith. Faith that causes us to do those things Jesus has commanded us to do to be saved (Mark 16:16;Acts 2:38).

• Look at the example of Agrippa in Acts 26:27-28. Agrippa believed (Paul knew he believed) but even Agrippa knew he was not a christian. Why? Because it was not an obedient faith that would cause him to take the steps necessary to become a christian. Remember, Faith alone does not save us as James explains in chapter 2.

 

[bondservant]

oh, so according to you (and paul,) we must believe and confess. i agree. first of all, by your definition, is confession a work? i mean, it's something we do, right? not God. secondly, paul's letter to the romans was written to baptized believers (see chapter 6 of the same book). "all throughout the New Testament, we find that one must repent and confess the name of the Lord in order to be saved," and be baptized. all throughout the nt, man. that's what i'm screaming.

i don't think speaking in tongues today in churches today is from God. i would have to say that they have ceased, as the Perfect (God's Word) has come (1 cor. 13:8-10). also, to make it a requirement for salvation is ludicrous, as it was granted only to some in the early church, and it wasn't even that "important" of a gift. there is no basis for it being a requirement.

i do believe one can fall away. the Spirit told john in rev 2:10, that if we are faithful even to the point of death, then will receive a crown of life. clearly, remaining faithful is important. how does a "once saved, always saved" believer reconcile Jesus' parable about the sowing of seeds (what are the seeds that land amongst the weeds (mark 4:18,19)? what happens to them?) and his analogy about the Vine and the branches (who are those that are cut away, that were once in Him (john 15:1-8)?)? osas can be, and already has been, discussed on other pages.

the crown of life is not earned by being good enough, but by remaining faithful. we are not to turn away. if your answer to this is, "if someone turns away, then they were never really a part of Christ.", then examine the two passages i mentioned in the previous paragraph. they are irreconcilable with osas.[/quote]

 

[bondservant]

4runner wrote: "if i get caught up in legalism i truly miss what he is all about." and
"On the other hand you can have "unchurched" people who are in right relationship with Jesus who may not have been baptized in flesh, but in heart."

claiming that insistence on baptism is legalism is folly. we are only defending the Gospel. Jesus insisted on baptism. paul insisted on baptism. peter insisted on baptism. if you are able to see the case as (i argue) the scripture holds it, you will see that baptism is an element of salvation. you've said that God won't send you to hell if you don't get baptized. where is baptism portrayed as being trivial in the new testament? we're not creating standards for salvation; we're merely echoing the Word of God.

i understand freedom in Christ. it's a beautiful thiing. but does it warrant disobedience of explicit scripture?

baptism is used by some as fire insurance. i agree. it's a shame. but so is "praying Jesus into your heart," which is not mentioned in scripture.

you tried to make a parallel between circumcision and baptism (i.e. "people who are in a right relationship with Jesus who may not have been baptized in flesh, but in heart.") paul speaks in romans 2 of gentiles who were circumcised in the heart rather than the flesh. however, this parallelism fails. why?

1.Circumcision was administered to males only; so should baptism be.
2.Circumcision did not require faith, nor should baptism.
3.Circumcision was administered on the eighth day, so should all baptisms.
4.Circumcision was administered by parents, so baptism should be too, not
by priests or clergy.
5.Circumcision was not a mark on the face, so baptism should not be on the face.
6.Circumcision was not binding upon the child, but the parents. Likewise,
baptism should be a duty of the parents.
7.Circumcision was administered to all a man’s slaves and seed, so should
baptism.
8.Circumcision required no faith or piety on the parts of the parents, so
it is not necessary in the parents of the baptized.
9.Circumcision entitled the subject to Abraham’s blessing, as should
baptism.
10.Circumcision was a sign in the flesh, so baptism is as well.
11.Circumcision was not to be performed in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, so neither is baptism.
12.Circumcision is identified with the Law of Moses and shares the same
fate, and so does baptism.
13.Circumcision has come to such a crisis that Christ profits the subject
nothing, so it does not profit one who is baptized either.
14.Circumcision did not exempt a Jew from being baptized, so baptism ought not prevent the subject from being baptized over and over.

that's the first outside argument i have quoted. thanks, mr. campbell. you have chosen, according to your own motives, what applies to both baptism and circumcision.

i heard billy graham speak once on tv. i had heard so many great things about him. in his sermon he said that on the day of pentecost, peter told the believers "to repent and be converted." he completely marginalized the significance of baptism. why is this important? because, on the day of pentecost, 3,000 people were baptized. it probably wasn't as convenient as getting them all to raise their hands and repeat a prayer, but it happened. and people often use this as a basis to say that baptism is done to join a local congregation. however, this too, is folly. the 3,000 were not all local. they spoke many different languages (9-11). the church they joined, to which they were added, was that of Christ. look also at philip and the ethiopian eunuch (acts 8). what church did the eunuch join through his baptism?

 

[blueberry pie]

**Article excerpt is from www.carm.org -(C) Matthew J. Slick

God Works Covenantally

The Bible is a covenant document (Old Covenant and New Covenant). If you don't understand covenant you cannot understand, in totality, the issue of baptism because baptism is a covenant sign.

If you don't think that God works covenantally then look at Heb 13:20 which says, "May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep" (NIV). The Eternal Covenant is the covenant between the Father and the Son before the creation of the world, whereby the Father would give to the Son those whom the Father had chosen. That is why Jesus says things like, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away" (John 6:37, NIV). And, "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day" (John 6:39, NIV). And, "I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours" (John 17:9, NIV).

If you fail to understand that God works covenantally and that He uses signs as manifestations of his covenants (rainbow, circumcision, communion, etc.) then you will not be able to understand where baptism fits in God's covenant system.

Second, you need to know what baptism is. It is an outward representation of an inward reality. For example, it represents the reality of the inward washing of Christ's blood upon the soul. That is why it is used in different ways. It is said to represent the death of the person (Rom. 6:3-5), the union of that person with Christ (Gal. 3:27), the cleansing of that person's sins (Acts 22:16), the identification with the one "baptized into" as when the Israelites were baptized into Moses (1 Cor. 10:2), and being united in one church (1 Cor. 12:13). Also, baptism is one of the signs and seals of the Covenant of Grace that was instituted by Jesus. It is in this sense a sacrament. A sacrament is a visible manifestation of something spoken. It is also said to be a visible sign of an inward grace. For example, the communion elements of bread and wine are called the sacrament of communion. When we take communion we are partaking of the sacrament.

The Covenant of Grace is the covenant between God and Man where God promises to Man eternal life. It is based upon the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and the condition is faith in Jesus Christ. As the Communion Supper replaced Passover, baptism, in like manner, replaces circumcision.

Circumcision was the initiatory rite into the Abrahamic covenant; it did not save. A covenant is a pact or agreement between two or more parties and that is exactly what the Abrahamic covenant was. God said to Abraham, "I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you" (Genesis 17:7, NIV). God later instructed Abraham to circumcise not only every adult male, but also 8 day old male infants as a sign of the covenant (Gen. 17:9-13). If the children were not circumcised, they were not considered to be under the promissory Abrahamic covenant. This is why Moses' wife circumcised her son and threw the foreskin at Moses' feet. (Ex. 4:24-25). She knew the importance of the covenant between God and her children. But at the same time we must understand that circumcision did not guarantee salvation to all who received it. It was a rite meant only for the people of God, who were born into the family of God (who were then the Jews).

An important question here is how is it possible for an infant to be entered into a covenant with God. There could be a lot of answers given but the point remains: it was done; infants were entered into a covenant relationship with God -- through their parents.

In the New Testament, circumcision is mentioned many times. But with respect to this topic it is specifically mentioned in Col. 2:11-12: "In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead" (NIV). In these verses, baptism and circumcision are related. Baptism replaces the Old Testament circumcision because 1) there was a New Covenant in the communion supper (Luke 22:20), and 2) in circumcision there was the shedding of blood but in baptism no blood is shed. This is because the blood of Christ has been shed.

If you understand that baptism is a covenant sign, then you can see that it is a representation of the reality of Christ circumcising our hearts (Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:11-12). It is our outward proclamation of the inward spiritual blessing of regeneration. It comes after faith which is a gift of God (Rom. 12:3) and the work of God (John 6:28).

Third, the Bible says that it is the gospel that saves. "By this gospel you are saved..." (1 Cor. 15:2). Also, Rom. 1:16 says, "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."

 

[blueberry pie]

the crown of life is not earned by being good enough, but by remaining faithful. we are not to turn away. if your answer to this is, "if someone turns away, then they were never really a part of Christ.", then examine the two passages i mentioned in the previous paragraph. they are irreconcilable with osas.

[/quote]

I agree with you about us remaining faithful until death. One who is devoted to Christ will still fall from time to time though, this we all know from personal experience. But, some churches are sooo legalistic that you have to be next to perfect to keep from losing your Salvation. They attach works - do this, this, and that to stay saved.

I know a few genuine Christians who have completely turned away from the faith and I would never say that they were not a true Christian to begin with - I know they were. I pray for the day they will return to Jesus.