Baptism and Salvation

[Collier]

How do we know which side is the truth?

I guess if we knew that we would not have these discussions.

 

[JM]

How do we know which side is the truth?

I guess if we knew that we would not have these discussions.

That's my point. The Bible tells us to 'take it to the church,' so how do we do this? By vote?

j

 

[Collier]

Actually the truth is in the Bible. You know that and I know that. The problem is not with the Bible being confusing but with man complicating it. Whatever you believe, you will answer for it, not anyone else. I will answer for what I believe and teach as will you. Study to show thyself approved unto God. Peace and love forever.

 

[Monkey Del]

Jason, I am not on here to argue...but hey your entitled to you opinion.

If you mean, because I don't agree with you and see things your way i am blind....isn't that the pot calling the kettle black...how hypocritical.

tell me something....why are you here?

i can handle pple disagreeing with me. I am ok with it. most of the time i am smiling.


I believe i am right. Do you believe you are right? I BET YOU DO. So then, aren't you just mad I don't agree with you.

 

[Monkey Del]

Jason:

Apologetics

Discuss topics related to defending or proving the truth of Christian doctrines.

 

[JM]

Jason, I am not on here to argue...but hey your entitled to you opinion.

If you mean, because I don't agree with you and see things your way i am blind....isn't that the pot calling the kettle black...how hypocritical.

tell me something....why are you here?

i can handle pple disagreeing with me. I am ok with it. most of the time i am smiling.


I believe i am right. Do you believe you are right? I BET YOU DO. So then, aren't you just mad I don't agree with you.

I'm not mad at all but frustrated by the way you post. You'll refussal to answer any questions I have posted (in another thread) lead me to believe you're simply not interested in talking about issues but rather forcing your view on others. Do I believe I'm right? Not all the time. It's childish to assume your opinion is the final word. It's foolish to discuss the faith when you think you know everything, what would be the point? Where's the humility?

As for you being blind, that was wrong of me to write. It was suggested to me in an email by another and I shouldn't have posted it

Forgive me,

j

 

[Monkey Del]

Jason, I am not on here to argue...but hey your entitled to you opinion.

If you mean, because I don't agree with you and see things your way i am blind....isn't that the pot calling the kettle black...how hypocritical.

tell me something....why are you here?

i can handle pple disagreeing with me. I am ok with it. most of the time i am smiling.


I believe i am right. Do you believe you are right? I BET YOU DO. So then, aren't you just mad I don't agree with you.

I'm not mad at all but frustrated by the way you post. You'll refussal to answer any questions I have posted (in another thread) lead me to believe you're simply not interested in talking about issues but rather forcing your view on others. Do I believe I'm right? Not all the time. It's childish to assume your opinion is the final word. It's foolish to discuss the faith when you think you know everything, what would be the point? Where's the humility?

As for you being blind, that was wrong of me to write. It was suggested to me in an email by another and I shouldn't have posted it

Forgive me,

j

1. I hold nothing against anyone. So yes I accept your appology, however accept mine please...sometimes I come across to harsh...Not intending to. I sometimes use sharp words.

2. I did not write God's word. I do not and never have claimed to have the all understanding on it. I believe I have the correct foundation and understand of what I must do to inherit eternal life, now that i am a Child of God.

3. What questions? I responded to the questions you posted. If there were more..email them to me.

4. I am not here to cram my beliefs down your throwt....I have better things to do. I am here to present an alternate perspective. I do not accept mainstream theology. Serving God is not about what feels good, but rather his will.

 

[Collier]

I read posts that talk about scriptures that teach salvation and do not mention baptism. I want to consider those that do mention salvation and baptism together.

• Why does baptism always come before salvation when they are together?

I will not take the time to list them all, so as to keep the post short but consider Acts 2:36-41;Acts 3:19;Acts 8:35-39;Acts 22:16 and the letters of Paul.

• I believe this shows us that baptism comes before salvation. After all, are not these things written for our learning?

 

[JM]

Collier,

Acts 2:38 Peter said to repent and then be baptized. If you want to get down to it, 'repent' comes before 'be baptized.' Acts 3:19 states, 'Repent ye therefore, and be converted...' Again in Acts 8:37 we find a confession of faith before baptism, 'I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.' The Bible teaches election and God makes this clear in Acts 22:14, 'And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will...' Acts 9 shows us Paul recieved the Holy Spirit and then was baptized. 'receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.' 'Baptized' was the last thing Paul did to be faithful. That take into account the verses that speak of salvation without baptism, that's where I'm at.


j
PS: Baptism is important after one is saved.

 

[Collier]

I have never said that baptism came before repentance. I believe the Bible is clear about that.

• You still can get around the fact that they were told to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins. This is simple and clear.

If you wish to be forgiven of sins, what must you do? The eunuch of Acts 8 is a wonderful example. We find that he is taught Jesus. He then believes and desires to be baptized. Philip explains that his believe is to be from the heart. The eunuch then confesses Jesus and is baptized. After he is baptized does he go away rejoicing.

• Again, let me ask a question. Where in the Bible does it say that we believe into Jesus Christ? It never says that we believe or repent or confess into Jesus. The way we get into Christ or put on Christ is through baptism after one has believed and repented. You may not realize the importance of something being UNTO salvation and something being INTO salvation. I will explain if you desire.

Let me end this post by saying how much I respect eveyone's beliefs. Just because we may disagree is no cause for hatred or rudeness. If I offend someone in one of these manners it is not intentional. God bless.

 

[JM]

The answer to your questions can be found when you consider:

1. Who takes the initiative in working our salvation?
2. How are we brought to faith? Does the Lord use people as His instruments to accomplish His purpose?
3. Who determines where the gospel will be preached? Will everyone hear it before Christ returns?
4. What is true and living faith?
5. Define the terms 'predestination' and 'election.' (http://www.bible.crosswalk.com)
6. Are we free to live the way we want? Can we choose? Keeping in mind we are dead in our sin.
7. Why do some accept God and others do not if we as people are all equal in our sin?

 

[Collier]

1. Who takes the initiative in working our salvation?

Jesus took the initiative when He came to this earth and died on the cross for our sins.

2. How are we brought to faith? Does the Lord use people as His instruments to accomplish His purpose?

Yes, God uses people to bring others to faith (Romans 10:13-17).

3. Who determines where the gospel will be preached? Will everyone hear it before Christ returns?

Since it is our responsibility to teach non-believers then each person plays a role in who will be taught. Will EVERYONE hear? Hard to say.

4. What is true and living faith?

It is an obedient faith to God and His will. To do what He has commanded and to live the way He has commanded

5. Define the terms 'predestination' and 'election.' (http://www.bible.crosswalk.com)

Depends upon your belief. You believe we have no choice and that God has already decided which individual He will save. I believe God has predstinated all those that obey Him and live faithfully to eternal life.

6. Are we free to live the way we want? Can we choose? Keeping in mind we are dead in our sin.

Yes! God is no respector of persons. He is not willing that any should perish but that all men should come to repentance. God wants all men to be saved, therefore it must be the individuals choice whether or not they obey.

7. Why do some accept God and others do not if we as people are all equal in our sin?

Some people's hearts are to hardened for the Word of God to affect them.

• I answered these questions (maybe not to your satisfaction) but they do not answer mine. This was an attempt to avoid my question. How do you get INTO salvation or Jesus Christ?

 

[JM]

Sorry, I'm at work. I hate to post and run but I'll be back.

Joh 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joh 7:39
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Question 7 God does harden mens harts Pharaoh is one. John 17:12 is another. I have two lists posted in Bible Study. One on Justice and the other on Grace.

j

 

[Collier]

Joh 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Joh 7:39
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

What kind of faith is this? Is it believing as the devils do or is it an obedient faith? I hope you believe it is the latter.

• An obedient faith gets us to the door of salvation, as do repentance and confession. Baptism gets us inside where salvation is. Again, show one verse that says faith gets us INTO Jesus Christ. Baptism puts one INTO Christ as we find in Romans 6:3 and Galatians 3:26,27. V.26 shows how faith and baptism work together to put us into Christ. Just as Jesus said it would in Mark 16:16.

 

[JM]

An obedient faith gets us to the door of salvation, as do repentance and confession. Baptism gets us inside where salvation is. Again, show one verse that says faith gets us INTO Jesus Christ. Baptism puts one INTO Christ as we find in Romans 6:3 and Galatians 3:26,27. V.26 shows how faith and baptism work together to put us into Christ. Just as Jesus said it would in Mark 16:16.

The hart of the matter, 'obedient faith gets us to the door of salvation.' I'm all for obedient faith, that's why I was baptized. But we can not add to the work of Christ on the cross with obedient faith, Christ and Christ alone saves us.

j

 

[Collier]

Jason,

• Let me say one more time how much I appreciate you taking the time to support your views. While I may not agree, I do respect you.

With that said,

Christ alone saves us.

AMEN

• Christ died for all men but not all men will be saved. Therefore, there must be some way for them to be separated. You say it is at the point of faith and I say it is at the point of baptism. The reason I make the whole argument about being in Christ is because that is where salvation is. That is where God separates those lost and saved. So you MUST be in Christ Jesus to be saved. The Bible is very clear that baptism puts us in Christ.

Anyway, I believe I have given readers something to chew on for a while. I no where you stand and you know where I stand. Take care!

 

[JM]

I was thinking the samething.

God bless,

j

 

[Blue-Lightning]

Collier, the question then has to be:

How did the thief hanging on the cross beside Jesus get into Heaven?



BL

 

[Collier]

Collier, the question then has to be:

How did the thief hanging on the cross beside Jesus get into Heaven

I will not take the time to explain this again. It is on this thread already. Look at page two and the beginning of page three.

• May God bless you too, Blue Lightning.

 

[Blue-Lightning]

Whoops-a-daisy... that'll teach me. Oh well, looks like everyone's done with this thread anywho.

8)

BL