Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
-
Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Belief and Faith
- Thread starter GodsGrace
- Start date
Me too.
That’s where some of us disagree.
We see the word “work” associated with a discussion about faith and grace, and immediately we reject what is being presented as truth, because we already “know” in our mind that we are not saved by “works”, because we are saved by grace through faith faith.
When we define the principle of faith, and understand what grace is, we see how work is actually a vital ingredient in both grace and faith.
Not the works of the law.
Not the work that earns a wage.
Not good works.
The “work” of obedience.
“Work” in that sense = the effort obedience requires
That’s why it’s called the obedience of faith.
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26
Concerning being saved, (regenerated, born again) we are to obey the Gospel; obey the truth.
Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 1 Peter 1:22
This is the clearest scripture in the Bible that describes the harmony of truth, between faith, our obedience, and grace.
Obeying the truth; obeying the Gospel, is how we are saved; born again.
The way we obey the Gospel is by confessing Jesus as Lord.
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10
JLB
What makes you think the ECF held a superior theology? See, you don't have a standard.
They were directly taught by Jesus, the truth.
By both the Truth and the Spirit that flowed from His heart directly into them.
Most of us misunderstand truth as being, just information.
Truth that comes to us apart from Christ and His Spirit is nothing more than divination, that comes from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Example:
- “These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.”
Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, “These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.”
Acts 16:16-17
What this girl spoke was factually true.
JLB
chessman
Member
“... it was the Lord Himself who saved them, because they could not be saved by their own instrumentality; and, therefore, when Paul sets forth human infirmity, he says: "For I know that there dwelleth in my flesh no good thing," showing that the "good thing" of our salvation is not from us, but from God.
Jesus made provision for all the world to be saved.
Can people be saved, delivered, healed, blessed without obeying the Gospel?
JLB
Regarding Paul, I think we can trust him. Yet even in his life time Paul saw disagreement and quarrelling. But I was referring those who came after Paul. Constantine and his vision. Do you believe Constantine? I don't. Then there were the various Councils and disagreement. Then one side was victorious and they murdered those who disagreed with them.
Today we have the Bible, so no one has an excuse. Don't say you can't get the RSV and read it.
So if you want to follow murderers, go ahead. As for myself, I follow my Lord and Master Jesus Christ.
Amen. He was taught directly, like we are suppose to, by the Lord.
Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),
But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ. Galatians 1:1,11-12
At the same time, we need to understand, biblically what he means by the phrase -
- an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ
Paul was indeed sent out as an Apostle by the Lord, but the time between his calling and him being sent out was many (17?) years, and to understand how the Lord sent him out is worth noting.
The call -
And when we all had fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking to me and saying in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’ So I said, ‘Who are You, Lord?’ And He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you. I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’
“Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance. Acts 26:14-20
The commission -
As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away.
So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. Acts 13:2-4
Paul was sent out by the Spirit, through the leadership of the Church he was submitted to in Antioch.
JLB
Here’s what we have today.
These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:26-27
Which is to say -
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. John 16:13
Remember the Spirit teaches directly as well as through anointed ones.
And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.
Ephesians 4:11-16
JLB
King Dan of Great the 1st
Member
I think there is two different types of belief. To believe something and then to believe in it. Maybe belief is believing something in general, and faith is believing in it as truth.
It's like believing in the devil, if you believe the devil is real then you have belief, but you don't have faith and trust.
Maybe belief is one thing in two ways, and the "belieivng in" gives faith and trust. So you have Faith and belief.
Acturally, is faith not things hoped for not yet seen?, or something like that, I think I read something in scripture.
It's like believing in the devil, if you believe the devil is real then you have belief, but you don't have faith and trust.
Maybe belief is one thing in two ways, and the "belieivng in" gives faith and trust. So you have Faith and belief.
Acturally, is faith not things hoped for not yet seen?, or something like that, I think I read something in scripture.
Last edited:
King Dan of Great the 1st
Member
Found it.
Hebrews 11:1
Hebrews 11:1
I think we use biblical words in our modern everyday communication sometimes to express ourselves, without fully understanding the meaning of those words as they were expressed in the original language.
To answer your question, yes believe and faith used in our modern vernacular are primarily the same.
If we are referring to the biblical words as they were used in the original language then no.
Biblically Speaking -
Faith is a noun.
Believe is a verb.
Faith is what we receive from God when He speaks to us.
Believe is our part that we must do in order to activate the faith that we receive from God when He speaks to us.
Believe also carries the idea of obedience.
If we believe Jesus is Lord, but don’t submit to Him in obediently then we really don’t believe.
Unbelief and disobedience are the same Greek word.
Without obedience faith remains dormant and inactive; unable to produce the intended divine result.
JLB
Mark, is a "work" a good thing or a bad thing for you?
I consider work to be good,,,but I'm often scolded for this point of view.
Anything we do for God is a work..but some today are starting to say that even FAITH is a work...so I'm becoming a bit confused...
Hey C, I haven't called your discussions silly, over and over. Just THIS one! And silly does't mean stupid..it means that it's not such an important discussion and maybe we shouldn't even be discussing it. You DO cling to the English and the Greek and I've always said that we shouldn't be so fussy about words, but try to see the N.T. in a bigger picture. I truly believe this is necessary.
What we're talking about here is not about "biblical evidence" but about English grammar, which I have stated all along. I've said for what I believe Paul was thanking God..I won't repeat it again.
Last post on this subject!
What a great post.
So many mix up works with doing works to be saved instead of doing works AFTER salvation.
They call this doing works to STAY saved,,,as if it were wrong.
We're told by Jesus and all the N.T. writers that obedience is necessary for salvation.
I just wonder if our new generation is very much agains this since there seems to be a lack of standards nowadays.....
Or maybe it just sounds more simple to follow God if one is not required to obey?
And all the scripture we could post seems to make no difference...
Just my thoughts...
That's funny Mark.
What is YOUR standard?
John Calvin?
He was born 1,500 years after Jesus died and was at this time that he came up with his doctrine.
The ECF were those IMMEDIATELY AFTER the death of Jesus.
We have the Apostolic Fathers and then the ECF.
It's considered that the ECF taught until the time of Constantine.
After him, much of the church changed due to the mingling of Christianity and Secularism. I'm very sorry that the church of that time got involved with secular ruling and government.
So, I'd say the ECF were before 325 AD when the Nicene Creed was established...in fact, they're called the Pre-Nicene Fathers.
Who would YOU rather learn from...
Someone who was taught by John the Apostle...or someone who was born 1,500 years after?
The ECF are EXACTLY those we should be looking to for what the truth is. In fact, THEY kept many heresies out of the church...if it were't for them, we'd have no church as we know it today. They fought to keep the truth in the church and the heresies out of the church.
I'd encourage you to study up on them:
Ignatius of Antioch
Polycarp
Clement of Rome
Justin Martyr
And more. You could start here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Fathers
OK C, but after we're saved...which is totally by God, as is stated by you, THEN we have our good works to do...
And WE must do them...
God saves us, He empowers us to do good, we have to agree to do the good and to act on it...
Romans 2:7
John 5:28-29
Who is a murderer?
What does Constantine have to do with the ECF?
If it were not for the councils,,,there would be no Christianity as we know it today.
And WHO do you think put the bible together?
The Early Church Fathers!
If you can believe the bible, you can believe them.