Belief and Faith

[GodsGrace]

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

It takes more than just believing in Jesus. Jesus said you must believe on him that sent Jesus.

Are you saying we are also to believe in God?
I think that goes without saying.
If Jesus is God,,,then we also believe in God.
We also can believe in God as the creator and Almighty God, the Father.
If we believe in the Trinity, or Godhead, belief in one is belief in all.

 

[GodsGrace]

many while confined get jail house religion .we deal with this today many have sunday morning religion

Ezra, I used to think this was better than nothing, but I'm starting to change my mind. Sunday religion doesn't bring with it a change of life or ideals --- I see this in some I know.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Lord has helped me supernaturally quite a few times. I've posted the testimonies about them. He has utterly proven Himself to me over time. He set a pattern of last minute never late. So there's no way that I can not believe at this point...or have faith.

...and yet, I find myself praying, Lord help my unbelief... I didn't even understand how it was that I could be in unbelief and still have faith after all He has done fr me. And this is one of the things that He has been slowly teaching me lately...what it amounts to is, I am not obedient enough yet. I'm not reading His word as much as I used to. I had a routine before. Then all this upheaval, and moving to Canton, the new job...my routine has been distracted and makes me fail. He convicts me daily, because I repent daily and ask forgiveness. I am doing somewhat better of late. I get back back up and turn back towards Him and ask Him, Lord don't give up on me, here I am. Dob what you have to do. Convict me, chastise me, whatever it takes. And that is where He has taken me...towards obedience.

I asked the Lord, Lord...I've wasted so much time in my life. I'm sorry, please forgive me...Where would I be right now, Lord, if I had continued to walk with you from age 12 or 13 when I first got saved...?

And you know what He said? He said, right where you are now.
I'm still digesting that one, whew!

Hi Edward,
We're all exactly where we're supposed to be.
Don't let's cry for the past...but rejoice for the future.

 

[GodsGrace]

I sure did. My Mom would tell you that, too! Lol

God answers my questions like nobody else ever has. I love it when He does that!

Yes. Kids go through the "why" phase.
It's good, it means they're curious and smart.

What I meant is more that they are able to accept what the parent answers....instead we just have more questions! Until we get to the end of a road, and then we just have to accept and believe and have faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

I understand it kinda like this.
If sin is missing the mark, then repentance is hitting the mark after missing it.
We dont always hit the mark, but with practice and endurance, we get closer.

Look at it like this. If your husband was beating you on a weekly basis, would him simply feeling sorry about it be a form of repentance. No, because feeling sorry is not an excuse to repeat bad behavior. Instead, feeling bad about ones behavior should be a motivator to not repeat the bad behavior. In religious terms, we call this obedience because we are now shooting toward the mark. But before we shoot, we have to aim toward the mark.

So we see that obedience is part of repentance.

The bigger question is this. What is your treasure, and do you love the Lord. If your treasure is the Lord, then your heart will be where your treasure is.

Do we trust Jesus enough to live the way He designed us to live? It takes faith to do what Jesus did because we first have to believe it's the best possible way to live.

Great post!

 

[chessman]

As you were preparing this reply, I wondered (get it?) if you were going to continue the conversation. A God thing??? Maybe.

I say we need to have the faith of a child.

OK, but my point is the Text of Matt 18 (or anywhere else in Scripture, for that matter) doesn’t actually teach that principle.

You say all Jesus was saying is that we need to be humble like a child.

I quoted the Text (that people sometimes refer to as support for teaching we should have child-like faith) and pointed out that Jesus was actually saying that to be the greatest in the KoH disciples are to be “humble” like that child and that it doesn’t actually say or even imply anything about having child-like faith. Then I posted several other verses that describe what it is to be “humble” so as to avoid the bias (as much as possible) of inserting my own meaning of “humble”.

So who is the greatest in the Kingdom of heaven?
Not the proud and arrogant but the humble and kind.
Those in the Kingdom do not trust on themselves but on their Father. They believe Him for all things. They know that without Him they are nothing.

Yes, there are numerous verses that show what it means to be “humble” is in contrast with being prideful/arrogant. I posted them in the post you claimed was “silly”:

everyone exalting himself will be humbled. And the one humbling himself will be exalted”.

do not call one on earth your father. For One is your Father— the heavenly One. Nor be called master-teachers, because your master-teacher is One— the Christ.

And the one most towards your disagreement is dealing specifically with “innocence” or lack thereof. Note the Pharisee’s claim (in contrast to the Tax Collector) was his innocence:

The Pharisee stood and prayed these things with reference to himself: ‘God, I give thanks to you that I am not like other people—swindlers, unrighteous people, adulterers, or even like this tax collector!​

Luke 18:11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 18:11&version=LEB

God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’

Verse 3: Jesus takes the child and says that if we do not become like children, we will not enter the KofH. How are children?

Great question, which is why I looked up the characteristic of this child Jesus specifically mentioned. And other uses of the original word translated “humble”, rather than leaning on my own definition.

Proverbs 3:5-6 comes to mind

Yes, as I said, the message of being “humble” like a child is all over the Bible:

Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear Yahweh and retreat from evil. There shall be healing for your flesh, and refreshment for your body. ...​

With those who scorn, he is scornful, but to those who are humble, he gives favor. They will inherit the honor of the wise, but stubborn fools, disgrace.​

Proverbs 3:7-8,34-35 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Proverbs 3:7-8,34-35&version=LEB

Notice the humble needs healing (not innocent).

In this sense, children are innocent

Prov 3, doesn’t mention a child’s innocence, but rather shows how our paths need straightening out.

Are children humble? I haven't ever met a humble one.

Again, Jesus specifically said that child was humble.

Maybe humble meant something different in those times?

I looked at every occurrence and posted a few. To include the one you took exception with (being humble means to admit your sinfulness in contrast to claiming innocence).

Perhaps it meant THE GROUND, the bottom. I'm not getting into the Greek of this.

If you really want to know what it means to be “humble like this child”, you have lots of scholarly resources (written in English) that define what the word means. I posted several verses that shows it’s meaning.

We are to be lowly and not think highly of ourselves.

Correct. Admit your sins, NOT claim your innocence.

Not that Jesus was wrong in using this word -- WE have a difficult time translating the original words.

Really, the difficulty is in a one-word to one-word translation. Plus the cultural differences (such as how children act these days versus then). It’s just not possible sometimes for one-to-one direct translation. But the English language is perfectly capable of expressing the meanings eventually. It just might take a few words to do so.

Can we say that we are both correct?
We are to become like children.
We are to be humble like a child.

If you are saying that to be “humble like a child” means to be ‘innocent like a child’, and I am saying that to be “humble like a child” means to ‘admit our sinfulness before Christ our Savior’, then I don’t see how we both can be correct, no.

One or the other of us (or both I suppose) is wrong, and I’m humble enough to admit it might be me that’s wrong. But, like a child, you’re gonna have to show me “why” I’m wrong using Scripture.

 

[stovebolts]

Great post!

Thank you. I dont always hit the mark, but I constantly aim for it.... kinda like horseshoes and hand grenades. God ain't finished with me yet lol. About the best we can do is have a supporting community that supports, challenges and encourages us.

 

[Razeontherock]

Yes. Kids go through the "why" phase.
It's good, it means they're curious and smart.

What I meant is more that they are able to accept what the parent answers....instead we just have more questions! Until we get to the end of a road, and then we just have to accept and believe and have faith.

Worship really helps with that!

Some people worship their parents; at least I've never fallen into that "trap," lol

 

[jeremiah1five]

Are Belief and Faith the same?

If I believe in someone, I also have faith in them.
Faith, as in trust.

If I have faith in someone, I also believe in them.
Believe in, as trust in.

Right?

In my most un-humble opinion...
Your two comments are not the same, but faith is the archaic Old King's English for "trust, confidence."
And "believe/belief are cognates of the same Greek word "pistis." / "pistuo."

 

[GodsGrace]

As you were preparing this reply, I wondered (get it?) if you were going to continue the conversation. A God thing??? Maybe.

OK, but my point is the Text of Matt 18 (or anywhere else in Scripture, for that matter) doesn’t actually teach that principle.

I quoted the Text (that people sometimes refer to as support for teaching we should have child-like faith) and pointed out that Jesus was actually saying that to be the greatest in the KoH disciples are to be “humble” like that child and that it doesn’t actually say or even imply anything about having child-like faith. Then I posted several other verses that describe what it is to be “humble” so as to avoid the bias (as much as possible) of inserting my own meaning of “humble”.

So where in the bible does it teach the Trinity?

So where in the bible does it teach the difference between Justification and Sanctification if Paul, at times, used sanctification in different ways, or tenses?

Does the bible have to explicitly say that we are to have a child-like faith in order for us to understand that this is the kind of faith Jesus would have liked us to have? He took the child and said we are to have a faith as him. HOW is a child? I won't repeat. Then Jesus said we are to be humble like a child...does that exclude all the other virtues of a child? I think not.

We are to be like a child. Did Jesus mean we're to run around and play and pull pranks on our friends and say NO to our parents? No. He meant exactly what I posted and any pastor, priest or theologian will tell you this. How many sermons have you heard that spoke to this? It's your prerogative C, if this is what you want to believe, but it certainly seems correct to believe that Jesus meant to be like a child IN OUR FAITH. This might well include being humble in however they understood that word back then.

Yes, there are numerous verses that show what it means to be “humble” is in contrast with being prideful/arrogant. I posted them in the post you claimed was “silly”:

Why did you put silly in quotation marks? I meant silly. You're well-versed in scripture and I couldn't believe you even made your statement, which was (in post no. 75):
Notice (or not) to be like what Jesus told the disciples to be like is to admit you are a sinner, not claim innocence.
OF COURSE! Who here on this forum ever claimed to be innocent!
It was just a total misunderstanding of what I said.

And the one most towards your disagreement is dealing specifically with “innocence” or lack thereof. Note the Pharisee’s claim (in contrast to the Tax Collector) was his innocence:

The Pharisee stood and prayed these things with reference to himself: ‘God, I give thanks to you that I am not like other people—swindlers, unrighteous people, adulterers, or even like this tax collector!​

Luke 18:11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 18:11&version=LEB

Great question, which is why I looked up the characteristic of this child Jesus specifically mentioned. And other uses of the original word translated “humble”, rather than leaning on my own definition.

As I said, I'd rather not get into the Greek. When I have a question on the Greek, I don't use a lexicon, I ask someone I know that reads the N.T. in koine Greek and the O.T. in Hebrew. I've noticed, at times, the problem he has in translating a particular word or phrase exactly as we would understand it today. As you've stated, sometimes it does take a whole sentence.

Yes, as I said, the message of being “humble” like a child is all over the Bible:

Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear Yahweh and retreat from evil. There shall be healing for your flesh, and refreshment for your body. ...​

With those who scorn, he is scornful, but to those who are humble, he gives favor. They will inherit the honor of the wise, but stubborn fools, disgrace.​

Proverbs 3:7-8,34-35 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Proverbs 3:7-8,34-35&version=LEB

Notice the humble needs healing (not innocent).

I don't quite understand your last sentence.
And I'm not debating that we need to be humble,,,we might understand humble as meek - as stated in the beatitudes, Mathew 5.

Prov 3, doesn’t mention a child’s innocence, but rather shows how our paths need straightening out.

My point was that Prov 3 is child-like in that we need to acknowledge God in all our ways...just like a child would ask his parents the best way to take - even though he might still go ahead and take his own path. The idea is that we are to depend on God and trust Him like a child would depend on and trust his parents.

Again, Jesus specifically said that child was humble.

Agreed. As in Mathew 18:4
But you refuse to consider Mathew 18:3
THIS is where we get the idea that we should have a child-like faith.

I looked at every occurrence and posted a few. To include the one you took exception with (being humble means to admit your sinfulness in contrast to claiming innocence).

I believe I've already addressed the above.

If you really want to know what it means to be “humble like this child”, you have lots of scholarly resources (written in English) that define what the word means. I posted several verses that shows it’s meaning.

Answered.

Correct. Admit your sins, NOT claim your innocence.

Answered.

Really, the difficulty is in a one-word to one-word translation. Plus the cultural differences (such as how children act these days versus then). It’s just not possible sometimes for one-to-one direct translation. But the English language is perfectly capable of expressing the meanings eventually. It just might take a few words to do so.

I agree that we could get the idea of the entire N.T. into English or it wouldn't be worth reading it.

BUT, could you explain these words to me?
German:
Zum Blauen Esel
It's a restaurant. What EXACTLY does Zum mean?

Italian:
Accipicchia
What EXACTLY does it mean?
(I need a whole sentence to explain it)

If you are saying that to be “humble like a child” means to be ‘innocent like a child’, and I am saying that to be “humble like a child” means to ‘admit our sinfulness before Christ our Savior’, then I don’t see how we both can be correct, no.

One or the other of us (or both I suppose) is wrong, and I’m humble enough to admit it might be me that’s wrong. But, like a child, you’re gonna have to show me “why” I’m wrong using Scripture.

Being humble, or meek, or anything like what this word means, DOES mean to understand our need for God.

It is in our FAITH, that we are to be innocent as children and trust in God.

This seems like an easy concept to me.

 

[GodsGrace]

Worship really helps with that!

Some people worship their parents; at least I've never fallen into that "trap," lol

If you worship your parents, sooner or later you'll be sorely disappointed!

Better to just respect them and love them.

 

[GodsGrace]

In my most un-humble opinion...
Your two comments are not the same, but faith is the archaic Old King's English for "trust, confidence."
And "believe/belief are cognates of the same Greek word "pistis." / "pistuo."

Hi J,
Nice to have you aboard.
Here are my two comments:
If I believe in someone, I also have faith in them.
Faith, as in trust.

If I have faith in someone, I also believe in them.
Believe in, as trust in.

1. Don't both the words faith and believe end up in trust?
Could you explain why they're different?

2. What are cognates?

3. What does pistis, pistuo mean?

4. Do you agree that OBEY is in the word BELIEVE?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Well, if you're wondering....
QUOTE: If I believe in someone, I also have faith in them.
Faith, as in trust.
If I have faith in someone, I also believe in them.
Believe in, as trust in.
1. Don't both the words faith and believe end up in trust?
Could you explain why they're different?
RESPONSE: My error. I should have been clearer. When I see these words I know the part of speech is in play. One is noun-feminine, the other is a verb. And this is important when studying the Scripture.

QUOTE: 2. What are cognates?
RESPONSE: A word is cognate with another if both derive from the same word in an ancestral language. In this case "peitho" is the root word and the other two derive from it.

QUOTE: 3. What does pistis, pistuo mean?
RESPONSE: Pistis and pistuo are two Koinonia Greek words that are in the KJV. First, "pistis….."

Greek Word: πίστις
Transliteration: pistis [G#4102]
Part of Speech: noun feminine
[note: the underlined words are the definition. Each Greek and Hebrew word in this reference book is numbered. (G=Greek, H=Hebrew).]

From the root (peitho) [G#3982];
"pistis" [G#4102] is defined as persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstract constancy in such profession; by extensive the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself.

"Pistis" is found here:

Matthew 8:10 (KJV) When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith [pistis], no, not in Israel.

Now, "pistuo"
Greek Word: πιστεύω
Transliteration: pisteuō
Part of Speech: verb

from [G#4102] (pistis); to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ.)

"Pistuo" is found here:

Matthew 8:13 (KJV) And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

QUOTE: 4. Do you agree that OBEY is in the word BELIEVE?
RESPONSE: You would have to do some grammarly-gymnastics to get there, but no.

 

[chessman]

Does the bible have to explicitly say that we are to have a child-like faith in order for us to understand that this is the kind of faith Jesus would have liked us to have?

The Bible, in numerous Scriptures, tells us what kind of faith Jesus would like His disciples to have. And it’s not child-like, in the sense of claiming innocence (that’s my point). It’s actually the opposite sense. Admitting your guilt.

He took the child and said we are to have a faith as him.

No He didn’t say that.

HOW is a child?

THIS child was humble (not innocent).

Then Jesus said we are to be humble like a child...does that exclude all the other virtues of a child? I think not.

You can think it includes all sorts of likenesses to children, but Jesus’s point was in the sense of this child’s humbleness (turning from considering yourself great as His disciples were doing at the time).

Why did you put silly in quotation marks?

I was quoting you.

Who here on this forum ever claimed to be innocent!

Children are innocent.

It was just a total misunderstanding of what I said.

Okay, sorry. I understood you to mean “children are innocent”.

I don't quite understand your last sentence.

I said: “Notice the humble needs healing (not innocent).” Prov 3 is consistent with my point about Jesus’s teaching in Matt 18. To be humble like the child Jesus referred to is to recognize your sinfulness (or as this Proverb puts it, your flesh needs healing).

Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear Yahweh and retreat from evil. There shall be healing for your flesh, and refreshment for your body.​

Proverbs 3:7-8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Proverbs 3:7-8&version=LEB

But you refuse to consider Mathew 18:3
THIS is where we get the idea that we should have a child-like faith.

Actually, I’m the one that has posted it and commented on what it says in this thread.
The verse doesn’t say or even imply disciples are to have a child-like faith and it for sure doesn’t say children are innocent.

Children in 1st Century Jewish society considered themselves humble (which includes the sense of their sinfulness), not innocent.

Here’s an on-topic question for you; If a child believes he/she is innocent, do you think they will believe they need forgiveness?

 

[JLB]

QUOTE: 4. Do you agree that OBEY is in the word BELIEVE?
RESPONSE: You would have to do some grammarly-gymnastics to get there, but no.

Can you commit to follow someone without at some point obeying them.


I think we can get lost sometimes in our zeal to study to show ourselves approved unto God, in the multitude of words and their meanings, in which we are painstakingly pouring over lexicons and Greek and Hebrew dictionary’s which in the end are the commentaries of men, and may cause us to get tangled up in reconciling the different understandings of a language that was transliterated and translated into our own, while possibly missing the context in which a word is used.

Missing the proverbial forest for the trees.


We know that unbelief is also the same word for disobedience.


Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, Hebrews 4:6 NKJV


Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV


We also know that it is to those who believe the Gospel that are saved.

While also knowing it is to those who obey the Gospel that are saved.


We know one can believe yet not obey, in which their believing alone will not save.

• You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! James 2:19

It is the concept of both believing and demonstrating our belief by obeying that one is saved.

Understanding the principle of faith and how faith is dormant or inactive (dead), and must be activated by our obedience for it to produce the intended divine result, will bring a greater clarity to understanding the relationship that obedience has with believing.


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16




JLB

 

[WIP]

You can think it includes all sorts of likenesses to children, but Jesus’s point was in the sense of this child’s humbleness (turning from considering yourself great as His disciples were doing at the time).

I understand the humble part but when I read your statement above, a thought occurred to me. Are you saying that a truly humble atheist has, as in right now, a place in heaven or does it take something else?

 

[Razeontherock]

. When I have a question on the Greek, I don't use a lexicon, I ask someone I know that reads the N.T. in koine Greek and the O.T. in Hebrew. I've noticed, at times, the problem he has in translating a particular word or phrase exactly as we would understand it today. As you've stated, sometimes it does take a whole sentence.

.

This alone needs to be addressed. In your absence we've seen people base entire treatises on the meaning of one word from the Bible, in English, having no understanding that there isn't always a word-for-word translation. Sometimes a translation difficulty can be explained in a sentence, but some things require much more: perhaps learning about their culture, or geography, or their humor, knowing enough details to know why it was funny.
Other sections were written as poetry, which would also inform our interpretation ...

 

[jeremiah1five]

Can you commit to follow someone without at some point obeying them.

Hello JLB. (I'm going to copy/paste these codes to reply, but if it gets complicated - and it will after a couple replies back and forth, I'll have to step away or go back to my method because I get confused in the text box when I multi-quote or whatever that is)
Yes, you can. But it will be sporadic. Taking this into the world an boss can commit to a subordinate and not obey him/her.
In the Church millions say they are committed to God but also do not obey Him.

I think we can get lost sometimes in our zeal to study to show ourselves approved unto God, in the multitude of words and their meanings, in which we are painstakingly pouring over lexicons and Greek and Hebrew dictionary’s which in the end are the commentaries of men, and may cause us to get tangled up in reconciling the different understandings of a language that was transliterated and translated into our own, while possibly missing the context in which a word is used.

If that's a point towards me, the zeal was when I was studying, but I trashed my commentary and use only one teacher (besides the Holy Spirit) and that would be Strong for my Greek and Hebrew. The Spirit of Truth will not use lies to grow me. Never has, never will. I don't open my mouth or post a thing unless I KNOW it was a Truth He taught me. But there are things I don't know of Scripture and this "so-great salvation" which in that case I defer to those who may know, or I keep quiet, but that's where my brethren come in with their call and gift, and to them I am committed - and don't snitch them out like Judas snitched out His Master - and do obey my brethren when they say the same thing as God. The Spirit in me bears witness. I do not "pour over such books" anymore. Been about twenty years. The foundation was laid, I put away childish things, and now I am a man of God, not a man of men.

Missing the proverbial forest for the trees.[?QUOTE]
I was never in the forest. At one TIME I was in the desert and also the wilderness. But never in the forest. God would not do that to me - nor any of His kids.

We know that unbelief is also the same word for disobedience.

Unbelief is the same as REJECT.

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

Ow. New King James Version. Now there's disobedience.

Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV

We also know that it is to those who believe the Gospel that are saved.

And we also know that it was Christ's belief, not men's, by which anyone is saved.

While also knowing it is to those who obey the Gospel that are saved.

One cannot be saved unless God first grants repentance (Acts 11:18 KJV)

We know one can believe yet not obey, in which their believing alone will not save.

I know that no one can believe nor obey unless granted leave by the King to do so.
Kingdom Principle.

You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! James 2:19

There are four spirits the Discerning of spirits (1 Cor. 12:10) is exercised to discern are the four spirits in creation.
1. the spirit of Elect angels
2. the spirit of non-Elect angels
3. the spirit of man
4. the Spirit of God.
These four and no more.
"Demons" are human attitudes. The originate from man.

It is the concept of both believing and demonstrating our belief by obeying that one is saved.

Not sure who the "one" is, but if I disobey am I then demonstrating I am not saved?
Although Peter wasn't saved until Acts 2, he was both in unbelief/reject and disobedience when he gathered the ten and they chose out Matthias to replace Judas - the Lord commanded them all to return to Jerusalem and tarry/WAIT until they were endued with power from on high. He didn't wait.

Understanding the principle of faith and how faith is dormant or inactive (dead), and must be activated by our obedience for it to produce the intended divine result, will bring a greater clarity to understanding the relationship that obedience has with believing.

Once a person is born again EVERYTHING is lit up. Everything the Holy Spirit is can and in His TIME manifested at the appointed TIMES in accordance to the Will and Word of God. Nothing is 'dead' in a believer - only the body.
But that will succumb under the weight of sin in TIME or until the Lord returns.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” Romans 10:16JLB

Post-cross and post-Advent of the Holy Spirit, those who are ordained to eternal life have believed such a report. And since Paul was addressing a people at Rome already saved, his quote of Isaiah 53:1 was to encourage them in their new lives.
What follows in Romans 10 is not a formula for salvation. There is no "accept Jesus into your 'heart.'"
Thanks to Charles Finney we also have an "altar call."
Thanks to Finney.

 

[chessman]

I had thought of this same point or example this AM.

Are you saying that a truly humble atheist has, as in right now, a place in heaven ...

No, which is precisely why I posted the passage of the Pharisee versus the tax collector. Jesus accepted the tax collector’s “humbleness” in admitting himself to be a sinner. Which is completely opposite of claiming one’s innocence. And this is exactly why I don’t think my conversation has been trivial, silly or quibbling over a word’s meaning.

or does it take something else?

It takes something else, repentance!
Repentance is a turning from sin, Biblically speaking. If a child or an atheist thinks himself innocent, can they truly repent?

 

[JLB]

Hello JLB. (I'm going to copy/paste these codes to reply, but if it gets complicated - and it will after a couple replies back and forth, I'll have to step away or go back to my method because I get confused in the text box when I multi-quote or whatever that is)
Yes, you can. But it will be sporadic. Taking this into the world an boss can commit to a subordinate and not obey him/her.
In the Church millions say they are committed to God but also do not obey Him.


If that's a point towards me, the zeal was when I was studying, but I trashed my commentary and use only one teacher (besides the Holy Spirit) and that would be Strong for my Greek and Hebrew. The Spirit of Truth will not use lies to grow me. Never has, never will. I don't open my mouth or post a thing unless I KNOW it was a Truth He taught me. But there are things I don't know of Scripture and this "so-great salvation" which in that case I defer to those who may know, or I keep quiet, but that's where my brethren come in with their call and gift, and to them I am committed - and don't snitch them out like Judas snitched out His Master - and do obey my brethren when they say the same thing as God. The Spirit in me bears witness. I do not "pour over such books" anymore. Been about twenty years. The foundation was laid, I put away childish things, and now I am a man of God, not a man of men.

A lot of your response got tied up in the quote.


How about this to simplify -


Can a person be saved without obeying the Gospel?



JLB