"Believe" in the present tense

[FreeGrace]

Your confusing this thread with the other. It's easy to do, I understand.

Pretty much the same subject.

 

[Nathan]

Pretty much the same subject.

Except we were not talking about it here.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Pretty much the same subject."

Except we were not talking about it here.

We're not talking about the same subject? How does that work?

 

[Jim Parker]

We're not talking about the same subject? How does that work?

it doesn't

 

[Seabass]

Much has been claimed about the verb "believe" in the present tense. Such as; continuous action for the rest of one's life.

The following link provides a detailed explanation of Greek tenses.
http://www.ntgreek.org/learn_nt_greek/inter-tense.htm

If one can show from this link the suggestion that the present tense indicates action to the end of one's life, please copy and paste into a response to the OP.

The present tense is used to indicate an action occurring at the present time, from the perspective of the speaker/writer. Think of "currently", or "right now". The action can be continuous, but that doesn't mean action that continues on indefinitely.

We know that can't be true, since Jesus Himself used the present tense for 'believe' in Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Note the 3 words that immediately follow the word 'believe': "for a while". If the present tense means continuous action to the end of one's life, then Jesus didn't understand grammar at all. Which I doubt very much.

Further, in the preceding verse, Jesus used the aorist tense of 'believe' to indicate salvation:
12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

So, it's clear that one is saved from a point in time belief, or a simple occurrence of belief.

In fact, Paul used the aorist tense frequently. In Acts 16:31 in his answer to the jailer's question of what he MUST DO to be saved, and in Rom 10:9.

So, the claim that the present tense means continuous action to the end of one's life is an incorrect use of the tense.

Eternal security is not a biblical teaching and meddling with Greek grammar will never make it biblical. The facts still remain, if one does not conditionally maintain a present tense "hearing" and "following" of Christ per John 10:27 then he will not be of the sheep in John 2:28 that shall not perish.

The idea a person can believe for a moment, then quit believing and yet still be saves is totally antagonistic to the bible's teachings:

Heb 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." A less than present tense belief leaves one lost, separated from God. Hebrews 10:38 "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." Colossians 1:23 "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (The verb 'continue is in the present tense - one must continue continuing)


Romans 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

Faith gives access to grace. If one can have faith for a moment then quit yet still be saved apart from faith, then why not argue one can be saved apart from grace also?


Acts 16:31 "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

The jailer did not believe for a moment and then quit nor did he have belief only.

--the verb phrase "shalt be saved" in Acts 16:31 is future tense so he would not have salvation at that moment by just a momentary belief.

---There are constative aorist tense verbs...." views the action as a whole, taking no interest in the internal workings of the action. It describes the action as bare fact" http://www.bcbsr.com/greek/gtense.html....."describes an action in its entirety"

John 2:20 "Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?"
The verb "building" is a constative aorist. They did not build for a moment and quit but continued to build until action was complete.

---Acts 16:34 "And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house."
The verb "believing" is now in the perfect tense which describes an action in the past that has a continuing effect. The jailer continued to believe unto the next day verse 35.

---also the participle "believing" includes all the jailer had just done, his repentance (washing stripes) and being baptized. So he was not saved 'belief only" for a moment. The idea one can be saved instantly, in a moment by believing only contradicts all the verses that require repentance, confession and baptism for salvation.

Lastly, those of a Calvinistic persuasion erroneously think faith is a gift in the sense that one can only have faith if God gives it to him. If this were true, then why would God give one faith for a moment, then take it back? Why is not one gifted with faith for life? What reason would there be for the jailer to be given belief for a moment by God then have it taken away?

 

[JLB]

Eternal security is not a biblical teaching and meddling with Greek grammar will never make it biblical. The facts still remain, if one does not conditionally maintain a present tense "hearing" and "following" of Christ per John 10:27 then he will not be of the sheep in John 2:28 that shall not perish.

The idea a person can believe for a moment, then quit believing and yet still be saves is totally antagonistic to the bible's teachings:

Heb 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." A less than present tense belief leaves one lost, separated from God. Hebrews 10:38 "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." Colossians 1:23 "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (The verb 'continue is in the present tense - one must continue continuing)


Romans 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

Faith gives access to grace. If one can have faith for a moment then quit yet still be saved apart from faith, then why not argue one can be saved apart from grace also?


Acts 16:31 "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

The jailer did not believe for a moment and then quit nor did he have belief only.

--the verb phrase "shalt be saved" in Acts 16:31 is future tense so he would not have salvation at that moment by just a momentary belief.

---There are constative aorist tense verbs...." views the action as a whole, taking no interest in the internal workings of the action. It describes the action as bare fact" http://www.bcbsr.com/greek/gtense.html....."describes an action in its entirety"

John 2:20 "Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?"
The verb "building" is a constative aorist. They did not build for a moment and quit but continued to build until action was complete.

---Acts 16:34 "And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house."
The verb "believing" is now in the perfect tense which describes an action in the past done that has a continuing effect.

---also the particle "believing" includes all the jailer had just done, his repentance and being baptized. So he was not saved 'belief only" for a moment. The idea one can be saved instantly, in a moment by believing only contradicts all the verses that require repentanace, confession and baptism for salvation.

Lastly, those of a Calvinistic persuasion erroneously think faith is a gift in the sense that one can only have faith if God gives it to him. If this were true, then why would God give one faith for a moment, then take it back? Why is not one gifted with faith for life? What reason would there be for the jailer to be given belief for a moment by God then have it taken away?

 

[Seabass]

Hi,

I had this debate with Freegrace2 on another forum a few months back. (I am assuming "Freegrace" here is "Freegrace2" on the other forum)

He started a thread arguing for Eternal Security using John 10:28.

I responded by showing salvation has two sides:
1) required faithfulness on part of the Christian Revelation 2:10; 1 Corinthians 4:1-2
2) God's faithfulness to the group called Christian.

John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"
John 10:28 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand"

These two verses make up one thought and cannot be separated. Verse 27 shows #1, the required faithfulness on part of the Christian to continue to hear and follow Christ. Verse 28 shows #2, God's faithfulness to the group Christian.

So in verse 28, the "they" that shall never perish is made up of those that maintain a faithful PRESENT TENSE, CONTINUOUS hearing and following of Christ. If the Christian becomes unfaithful in his hearing and following Christ per verse 27, then he will not be of the "they" in verse 28

This is why FreeGrace attacks the present tense (and will attack the subjunctive mood also).

I do not know how popular the idea is among people that one can lose faith yet still be saved, but Charles Stanley is a promoter of it.

 

[JLB]

These two verses make up one thought and cannot be separated. Verse 27 shows #1, the required faithfulness on part of the Christian to continue to hear and follow Christ. Verse 28 shows #2, God's faithfulness to the group Christian.

I have told him this same thing over and over, in which he ignores the whole verse and context, and only quotes a part of the verse.


JLB

 

[JLB]

So in verse 28, the "they" that shall never perish is made up of those that maintain a faithful PRESENT TENSE, CONTINUOUS hearing and following of Christ. If the Christian becomes unfaithful in his hearing and following Christ per verse 27, then he will not be of the "they" in verse 28

This is why FreeGrace attacks the present tense (and will attack the subjunctive mood also).

Amen!

 

[Seabass]

I have told him this same thing over and over, in which he ignores the whole verse and context, and only quotes a part of the verse.


JLB

Those of the Eternal Security thinking will ignore the verses that require faithfulness on part of the Christian. How more unfaithful could the jailer be if he believed for a moment, then quit?

 

[Jim Parker]

Eternal security is not a biblical teaching and meddling with Greek grammar will never make it biblical.

That's right.

 

[FreeGrace]

Eternal security is not a biblical teaching and meddling with Greek grammar will never make it biblical.

Eternal security IS a biblical teaching. In fact, Jesus was very clear about it. He said those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28.

How is that NOT eternal security? Please explain.

What isn't biblical is the claim from those who think salvation can be lost that the present tense of 'believe' means one is only saved as long as they "presently believe", which isn't what the present tense means at all.

The facts still remain, if one does not conditionally maintain a present tense "hearing" and "following" of Christ per John 10:27 then he will not be of the sheep in John 2:28 that shall not perish.

These are no facts. What Jesus said in v.28 contains NO CONDITIONS for never perishing.

One may argue who the "them" and "they" are in v.28, but one thing is SURE: they will never perish because Jesus gave them eternal life.

The idea a person can believe for a moment, then quit believing and yet still be saves is totally antagonistic to the bible's teachings:

Heb 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." A less than present tense belief leaves one lost, separated from God. Hebrews 10:38 "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him." Colossians 1:23 "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (The verb 'continue is in the present tense - one must continue continuing)

Romans 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."

Faith gives access to grace. If one can have faith for a moment then quit yet still be saved apart from faith, then why not argue one can be saved apart from grace also?

Acts 16:31 "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

The jailer did not believe for a moment and then quit nor did he have belief only.

--the verb phrase "shalt be saved" in Acts 16:31 is future tense so he would not have salvation at that moment by just a momentary belief.

---There are constative aorist tense verbs...." views the action as a whole, taking no interest in the internal workings of the action. It describes the action as bare fact" http://www.bcbsr.com/greek/gtense.html....."describes an action in its entirety"

John 2:20 "Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?"
The verb "building" is a constative aorist. They did not build for a moment and quit but continued to build until action was complete.

---Acts 16:34 "And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house."
The verb "believing" is now in the perfect tense which describes an action in the past that has a continuing effect. The jailer continued to believe unto the next day verse 35.

---also the participle "believing" includes all the jailer had just done, his repentance (washing stripes) and being baptized. So he was not saved 'belief only" for a moment. The idea one can be saved instantly, in a moment by believing only contradicts all the verses that require repentance, confession and baptism for salvation.

Interesting to note that NONE of these verses just quoted says anything about losing salvation or eternal life. Or having to continuously believe in order to stay saved.

And Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life in John 10:28. By the plain FACT that He gives them eternal life, they will never perish. That's eternal security!!

Lastly, those of a Calvinistic persuasion erroneously think faith is a gift in the sense that one can only have faith if God gives it to him. If this were true, then why would God give one faith for a moment, then take it back? Why is not one gifted with faith for life? What reason would there be for the jailer to be given belief for a moment by God then have it taken away?

I agree with you regarding the Calvinistic persuasion. I'm not one of them any more than I'm of the Arminian persuasion. I'm of the biblical persuasion.

But the real problem is that the teaching that one can lose salvation goes directly against what Jesus said in John 10:28.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is why FreeGrace attacks the present tense (and will attack the subjunctive mood also).

What a hoot!! I've never attacked the present tense. I HAVE shown the Arminian abuse of the present tense, though.

I do not know how popular the idea is among people that one can lose faith yet still be saved, but Charles Stanley is a promoter of it.

Please explain WHY Jesus gave NO CONDITIONS for recipients of eternal life for never perishing.

Just the FACT that those He gives eternal life will never perish.

John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Black.and.white.

He gives, they will never perish.

It couldn't be any more clear than that.

Salvation has always been based on what Jesus did for us. All we can do is receive it.

 

[FreeGrace]

I have told him this same thing over and over, in which he ignores the whole verse and context, and only quotes a part of the verse.

JLB

Why hasn't there EVER been any explanation of HOW "only quoting a part of the verse" changes ANYTHING I've claimed about the verse??

 

[FreeGrace]

Those of the Eternal Security thinking will ignore the verses that require faithfulness on part of the Christian.

Nonsense. of course the believer is commanded to remain faithful. But not for salvation. For reward and blessings.

How more unfaithful could the jailer be if he believed for a moment, then quit?

It would be unfaithful, of course. But Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish. John 10:28

The challenge is to either believe what He said or not.

 

[FreeGrace]

Seabass said: ↑
Eternal security is not a biblical teaching and meddling with Greek grammar will never make it biblical.

That's right.

No, that's wrong.

Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28.

 

[JLB]

Those of the Eternal Security thinking will ignore the verses that require faithfulness on part of the Christian. How more unfaithful could the jailer be if he believed for a moment, then quit?

Agreed.


JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

Those of the Eternal Security thinking will ignore the verses that require faithfulness on part of the Christian. How more unfaithful could the jailer be if he believed for a moment, then quit?

We do not ignore those verses. We ignore the false interpretations of those verses.

Being unfaithful or going apostate after we are saved is a BIG deal. We lose our chance to Glorify Him in time and lose tremendous, tremendous rewards and blessings. Not to mention the heavy hand of discipline From our Father IF we don't continue in His faith.

To Grow in His grace knowledge requires faithfulness(STUDY<STUDY and STUDY His Mind.) If we don't, there are HUGE consequences.


But Salvation is simply believing and He seals us with His Spirit...........forever. Acts 16:31.

 

[Jim Parker]

Seabass said: ↑
Eternal security is not a biblical teaching and meddling with Greek grammar will never make it biblical.
No, that's wrong.
Jesus said those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28.

I am aware of your view.
I do not believe it is supported by scripture.
I'm not going to argue with you

 

[Seabass]

We do not ignore those verses. We ignore the false interpretations of those verses.

Being unfaithful or going apostate after we are saved is a BIG deal. We lose our chance to Glorify Him in time and lose tremendous, tremendous rewards and blessings. Not to mention the heavy hand of discipline From our Father IF we don't continue in His faith.

To Grow in His grace knowledge requires faithfulness(STUDY<STUDY and STUDY His Mind.) If we don't, there are HUGE consequences.


But Salvation is simply believing and He seals us with His Spirit...........forever. Acts 16:31.

1) There is a "false interpretation" given to John 10:28 when verse 27 gets ignored as it is happening in this thread.

2) where does the bible teach if one loses, casts aside his faith he will still be saved but just lose rewards?

3) do you agree with FreeGrace a Christian can quit believing, cast aside his faith turn his back on Christ and still be saved?