"Believe" in the present tense

[Edward]

Okay, let's work with this. Those who deny, forsake, or walk away may have been believers but not born of the Spirit believers.
Those people sitting in the churches. Believers? I'd say yeah, but not many born agains.

But not many born agains...You mean like, they stopped believing after bring born again, or...hasn't been born again.

I heard a pastor (theorize) before that maybe people do not become born again immediately when they say the sinners prayers and give their life to the Lord...but later at a time when the Lord deems that their belief is real and sincere...I kind of understand what he was trying to say, I don't necessarily buy into it because I'm not sure...but what you said sort've sounds like he was talking...?or do I have that wrong?

 

[Jim Parker]

Okay, let's work with this. Those who deny, forsake, or walk away may have been believers but not born of the Spirit believers.

Consider Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
If a person is a "partaker of the Spirit" he was born of the spirit.
According to the writer of Hebrews, that person can "fall away."

 

[LovethroughDove]

Will the Spirit bring someone to believe, and the person believe, but then the Spirit not dwell in them?

I have been there and probably everyone else. I believed certain things of the gospel, but not until I believed "God raised Jesus from the dead"........did I become Spirit filled.

Would you call me a believer before I became Spirit filled? I'd say yes, cause I was on that path of belief.

John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

See, you can have the Spirit with you until you are born again and he is "in" you.

 

[Nathan]

I have been there and probably everyone else. I believed certain things of the gospel, but not until I believed "God raised Jesus from the dead"........did I become Spirit filled.

Would you call be a believer before I became Spirit filled? I'd say yes, cause I was on that path of belief.

John 14:17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

See, you can have the Spirit with you until you are born again and he is "in" you.

True, the Spirit is always at work in the world. So you could say He is with us.

I think we could say a person who believes in some things is a "believer", but is that how the Bible defines a believer?

Here is a question. At what point does a person receive the Spirit in them? Do they have to do something specific?

 

[LovethroughDove]

Consider Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
If a person is a "partaker of the Spirit" he was born of the spirit.
According to the writer of Hebrews, that person can "fall away."

I see it only as a warning. Cause he puts the word "if" they fall away.

 

[LovethroughDove]

But not many born agains...You mean like, they stopped believing after bring born again, or...hasn't been born again.

I heard a pastor (theorize) before that maybe people do not become born again immediately when they say the sinners prayers and give their life to the Lord...but later at a time when the Lord deems that their belief is real and sincere...I kind of understand what he was trying to say, I don't necessarily buy into it because I'm not sure...but what you said sort've sounds like he was talking...?or do I have that wrong?

Haven't been born again

When the Lord deems that their belief is real and sincere, he will give total revelation and you will be born again.

 

[Nathan]

Haven't been born again

When the Lord deems that their belief is real and sincere, he will give total revelation and you will be born again.

This can be taken negatively I think. The way you said this makes me think that a person has to believe for a while, to prove to God their belief is real, before He accepts them.

I don't think you meant it that way. Could you explain your post more?

 

[LovethroughDove]

True, the Spirit is always at work in the world. So you could say He is with us.

I think we could say a person who believes in some things is a "believer", but is that how the Bible defines a believer?

Here is a question. At what point does a person receive the Spirit in them? Do they have to do something specific?

Yes, they have to believe something specific to receive the Spirit
Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord", and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

With me, I was thinking about DNA and what Jesus's DNA was made of and the Jesus is Lord revelation came to me.........shortly after that I was in an argument with my sister about Jesus and she said he didn't die on the cross but traveled around Europe. At that moment I 100% knew in my heart the resurrection is true and I became Spirit filled.

 

[LovethroughDove]

This can be taken negatively I think. The way you said this makes me think that a person has to believe for a while, to prove to God their belief is real, before He accepts them.

I don't think you meant it that way. Could you explain your post more?

Your love for him has to be sincere. The more I got to know of him, I fell more in love with him and then he totally revealed himself to me.
John 14:15-16 "If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of truth

 

[chessman]

They leave the truth because times of testing prove harder than they want.

That's not the reason Jesus said they "fell away" nor does He say they ever had the truth in the first place. In fact, they never understood the word. Yes, they "fell away" during a time of testing, BUT, He doesn't say it was "because" the times of testing proved to hard, that they fell away. People assume that, contrary to the Text.

Mark 12:24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God?
​

Is it necessary that someone understand the Scriptures and the power of God in order to not hold mistaken beliefs??? Yes!

Matthew 13:20-21 (ESV) As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
​

Did the rock have any root in himself??? No!

Matthew 13:23 (ESV) As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”
​

Did the rock understand the word??? No! The good soil was the one that understood the word.

Matthew 13:13 (ESV) For this reason I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand,​

The rocky soil:
1. didn't understand the word,
2. had no root
3. held mistaken belief

For these reasons, they immediately fall away.


Only soil that is rooted in the Root and thus understands the power of God, proves to be His. The rest, hear something they just don't understand and hold mistaken beliefs.

 

[Nathan]

That's not the reason Jesus said they "fell away" nor does He say they ever had the truth in the first place. In fact, they never understood the word. Yes, they "fell away" during a time of testing, BUT, He doesn't say it was "because" the times of testing proved to hard, that they fell away. People assume that, contrary to the Text.

Mark 12:24 Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God?
​

Is it necessary that someone understand the Scriptures and the power of God in order to not hold mistaken beliefs??? Yes!

Matthew 13:20-21 (ESV) As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
​

Did the rock have any root in himself??? No!

Matthew 13:23 (ESV) As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”
​

Did the rock understand the word??? No! The good soil was the one that understood the word.

Matthew 13:13 (ESV) For this reason I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand,​

The rocky soil:
1. didn't understand the word,
2. had no root
3. held mistaken belief

For these reasons, they immediately fall away.


Only soil that is rooted in the Root and thus understands the power of God, proves to be His. The rest, hear something they just don't understand and hold mistaken beliefs.

The rock is the soil that the truth falls on. Even good soil has no root. Only a plant has a root.

The soil is the condition of ones heart. Some have hard hearts and cannot endure sound doctrine.

2 Timothy 4:3 (ESV) 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,

2 Timothy 4:4 (ESV) 4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Sometimes it's "hard" to hear the truth. Those that deny it do not deny the ones teaching it, they only deny the one from who the truth comes from. These people will most certainly fall away unless they turn from wondering off, turning back to the shepherd.

Hebrews 3:15 (ESV)
As it is said, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion."

Hebrews 4:7 (ESV)
again he appoints a certain day, "Today," saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The TENSE determines the time aspect of the verb, not the verse."

That's not what D. A. Carson says and, since he's an expert and we're not, I will defer to his analysis.

Well, I sic'ed Daniel Wallace on Carson, and Wallace won.

 

[FreeGrace]

You posted scripture for what I believe which is: The condition for a person to be saved is to believe.

So far, so good.

Your belief is that a person is still saved if they no longer believe, having returned to unbelieving.

Because the Bible makes that abundantly clear.

The gifts of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:29
Eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23
Having believed, the person is sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit, a deposit guaranteeing the day of redemption. Eph 1;13,14
Those who RECEIVE eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28

Please post the scripture for your belief which teaches that a person is still saved, even though the don't believe anymore.
JLB

See above.

 

[FreeGrace]

The point being that the narrow path is narrow. I've said over and over again on these threads that it "seems" to me that we need to narrow our definition of what makes a born again believer. Just because someone may believe certain things about Christ, doesn't automatically make them born again.......it makes them a believer but not born again.

OK, so what makes one "born again"?

 

[FreeGrace]

Oh, and a born again Spirit will always believe.

Please follow forum rules and provide Scripture that supports this claim.

 

[FreeGrace]

Amen! Good word.

Judas showed he continued to believe, because he continued to follow Him.
JLB

He followed because he was an opportunist. Kinda like a stalker. Only more subtle.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Let me be as clear as Scripture is clear about who the Holy Spirit dwells in.

Eph 1:13,14 -
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed (aorist tense), you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

All who have ever believed in a point of time are sealed with the Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance.

That is plain language."

You can deny all the passages you want in order to believe what you want.

This is kind of an odd comment from what I posted above. What Scripture did I deny in my statement?

What I showed was the plain language of Scripture about who the Holy Spirit indwells. Who would deny what Eph 1:13 says?

 

[FreeGrace]

IMO, there is not enough information in scripture to come to the conclusion that Judas was never saved.
Would Jesus have made him an apostle if he were not sincere in his faith?
We have more questions than answers.

iakov the fool

We also have the answer to WHY Judas was chosen. John 6:70,71 - Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

 

[FreeGrace]

There is plenty of scripture to prove Judas was a believer... for a while.

Not at all.

Jesus empowered Judas to preach the Gospel to the lost, and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cleanse the lepers.

And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.
Matthew 10:1-4

He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease.

This only demonstrates that Jesus has the authority to give power to anyone He wants to. And it had nothing to do with believing.

 

[FreeGrace]

Haven't been born again

When the Lord deems that their belief is real and sincere, he will give total revelation and you will be born again.

I see, so not what Paul told the Galatians in ch 3?
2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

How can one not be born again but be indwelt with the Holy Spirit? Eph 1:13 tells us WHEN one is sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit. Having believed. Simple occurrence (aorist tense).