Believing in Wrong Doctrine: Will I lose my salvation?

[ezrider]

The Spirit of Christ who lives in believers is not the second coming of Christ (see Matt 24:30 NIV: 'Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory'.

Then you did not receive it. Continue to wait. Not all are called to the resurection unto life, some come to the resurrection unto damnation. Both give glory to the Lord!

 

[OzSpen]

As a friend of the bridegroom, this is the word I have received of my Father.

Also, its in the scripture

ez,

Where in Scripture is it found that Christ being in the believer means Christ and the believer 'shall become one flesh'?

'Also its (sic) in scripture' is not helpful as there are 1,326 pages in my Bible. Without specific references, I cannot find such a view.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Then you did not receive it. Continue to wait. Not all are called to the resurection unto life, some come to the resurrection unto damnation. Both give glory to the Lord!

ez,

What an audacious claim!

No Scriptures are provided to support this view.

You didn't refer to the verse I provided, Matt 24:30 NIV. I wonder why?

Who are called to the resurrection of life?

Jesus said:

28 “Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and will come out—the ones who have done what is good to the resurrection resulting in life, and the ones who have done what is evil to the resurrection resulting in condemnation (John 5:28-29 NET).​

Following my repentance and forgiveness and faith in Jesus Christ alone, I 'have done what is good' and will attain 'the resurrection resulting in life' as long as I continue in the faith until my death.

Those who receive 'the resurrection resulting in condemnation' are those who do evil and are not born again.

I can guarantee you that I have no further need to wait. I'm a born from above believer in Christ.

Oz

 

[ezrider]

ez,

Where in Scripture is it found that Christ being in the believer means Christ and the believer 'shall become one flesh'?

'Also its (sic) in scripture' is not helpful as there are 1,326 pages in my Bible. Without specific references, I cannot find such a view.

Oz

Wow, that is a lot of pages to read through. And to think the Bereans did it without the advantages of digital media and search engines! Are you not up to the task?
Edited by moderator

 

[ezrider]

ez,

What an audacious claim!

Can I take that as a compliment? The Pharisees thought that Jesus made some pretty audacious claims too!

No Scriptures are provided to support this view.

No scripture to support what view?

You didn't refer to the verse I provided, Matt 24:30 NIV. I wonder why?

Because in that reference it says he returns in the glory of the Father. Just may look like a lake of fire. Well, the Israelite's did see it as a great burning mountain.

 

[ezrider]

Who are called to the resurrection of life?

Why of course, those who are written in the Lamb's book of Life.

 

[chessman]

For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 3:13


What possible good can come from you denying that “the faith”, means the faith in Christ?

I have not denied that the faith which is in Christ Jesus, means the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Why would you change what Paul explicitly said in 1 Tim 4:1-3 into something Paul didn’t actually say in 1 Tim 4:1-3?

Being double-tongued is not honorable:

Deacons similarly must be honorable, not double-tongued , not paying-attention-to much wine, not fond-of-shameful-gain,​

1 Timothy 3:8 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 3:8&version=DLNT

 

[chessman]

'Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it' (1 Cor 12:27 NIV).

Oz, not to but in to your discussion with EZ or change the subject of this thread, but do you believe each one (that is, each individual) member of the church is now (presently) a part of the body of Christ?

 

[GodsGrace]

This has not been my experience. As I grow in the Lord and in the knowledge of His Righteousness, it does not enlighten me any to any greater extent in the forgiveness that He has already granted unto me. As I grow in the Lord, I realize how much strenght I need to take the sins of others upon myself and walk in the true forgiveness of His nature.

What do you mean by taking the sins of others upon yourself?

 

[JLB]

I have not denied that the faith which is in Christ Jesus, means the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

What possible good can come from you denying that “the faith”, means the faith in Christ?



Here is the context of 1 Timothy 4:1.



For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Timothy 3:13-4:1



JLB

 

[chessman]

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Timothy 3:13-4:1

You’ve misquoted 1 Tim 4:1. That’s not even a complete sentence.

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.​

1 Timothy 4:1-3 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 4:1-3&version=NKJV

Do you have the faith that God created marriage and thus marriage is not to be rejected?

 

[JLB]

Why would you change what Paul explicitly said in 1 Tim 4:1-3 into something Paul didn’t actually say in 1 Tim 4:1-3?

Actually, I’m the one saying the term “the faith” means the same thing throughout 1 Timothy.

IOW, the meaning of the term “the faith”, doesn’t change, as it continues to mean the same thing; faith in Christ.


Please read the simple context in 1 Timothy 3:8 - 1 Timothy 4:1, and explain to all of us why you think the meaning of the term “the faith”, changes from one passage to the next.



Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 3:8-4:1




JLB

 

[JLB]

You’ve misquoted 1 Tim 4:1. That’s not even a complete sentence.

Please point out what I misquoted in 1 Timothy 4:1?


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1


This is a direct and complete quote of 1 Timothy 4:1, from the
NKJV.


Please refrain from misrepresenting me.


1.3 Do not misquote or misrepresent another member.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Do you have the faith that God created marriage and thus marriage is not to be rejected?

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 1 Timothy 4:1-4

• forbidding to marry and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

1. This passage says - commanding to abstain from foods which God created

Is does not mention God creating marriage.

It says commanding to abstain from foods which God created.

2. Furthermore, the passage does not say faith that God created marriage. ​

I believe God instituted or ordained marriage, because of what I read in the scriptures.

Also, He does forbid marriage between unbelievers and believers, as well as between the same sex.


Believe and faith are two different words.




JLB

 

[chessman]

the meaning of the term “the faith”, doesn’t change, as it continues to mean the same thing; faith in Christ.

It’s purely your imagination that “the faith” always means “faith in Christ”.

Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things.​

1 Timothy 3:11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 3:11&version=NKJV

Deacons, just like a deacon’s wife, are to be “faithful in all things”, not just in Christ. Some people departing from the faith that God created both marriage and food as good things, does not a de-salvation passage make.

Paul didn’t say departing from the faith is departing from the faith in Christ. You do, not him.

Please point out what I misquoted in 1 Timothy 4:1?

I did and have before as well. You ended 1 Tim 4:1 with a period. The NKJV doesn’t have a period at 4:1 because that’s not even a complete sentence.

 

[JLB]

It’s purely your imagination that “the faith” always means “faith in Christ”.

Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things.1 Timothy 3:11 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 3:11&version=NKJV

Deacons, just like a deacon’s wife, are to be “faithful in all things”, not just in Christ. Some people departing from the faith that God created both marriage and food as good things, does not a de-salvation passage make.

Paul didn’t say departing from the faith is departing from the faith in Christ. You do, not him.

We are discussing the term “the faith”; a noun.

We are not discussing the word “faithful” an adjective.

Now you are attempting to change the discussion topic because you can not explain why you think the term the faith changes from passage to passage.


The meaning of the term “the faith”, doesn’t change, as it continues to mean the same thing; faith in Christ.


Please read the simple context in 1 Timothy 3:8 - 1 Timothy 4:1, and explain to all of us why you think the meaning of the term “the faith”, changes from one passage to the next.



Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 3:8-4:1




JLB

 

[JosephT]

The words of the book were not given to the servants to understand. Servants were meant to carry the message to the Son, to whom were given the words.

If by this statement you mean to say that the book was given to the servants of Jesus Christ for the mere purpose of handing it on to the next generation, without understanding, without reasoning in the content of the book borders on the absurdity. The bible tells us to come to know God, else religion becomes mythical nonsense. Dogma, is the reasoning in belief, without which faith becomes an ascension to our own emotions, a delusional irrational faith.

. . . dogma has been the fundamental principle of my religion: I know no other religion; I cannot enter into the idea of any other sort of religion; religion, as a mere sentiment, is to me a dream and a mockery. As well can there be filial love without the fact of a father, as devotion without the fact of a Supreme Being. [Henry Cardinal Newman, Apologia (1865), 2]​

Faith, however, is found in the knowledge of the things we hope for but as yet attained. [Cf. Hebrews 11:1]. The virtue of faith is reasoning in our hope and strength to believe when our goal yet to be sighted. It is not the Gnostic faith where all reason and reality are set aside to worship a book apart from God; where grace itself a substance falls from the heavens to enveloping us in really good feeling vibes.

We do not love a God locked within a book to be brought forth at opportune times. Such a thing is the worship of book.

JosephT

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually, that is not what verse 24 is saying. In fact, it is quite the opposite. God is wearied, h He is sick and tired of the people bringing their sins before Him continually. For His own sake, for the sake of Mercy and not Wrath, He has blotted out your sins. He doesn't want to hear about them any more. If you sin against your brother, then seek forgiveness from your brother.

Verse 26 continues as He says he has already blotted them out and will remember them no more, so why do you keep bringing to me your sins and asking me to remember them? If you want to argue about it, then state your cause so you may be justified. This is akin to the lawyer answere and then seeking to justify himself when he asked of Jesus who is my neighbor (Luke 10:25-29).

I don't understand these verses as you do. This is why it's important to have a biblical scholar when reading...especially the O.T.

Isaiah 43:24-26
Verse 22 says that Israel has not called upon the Lord. They have not wearied themselves for God --- the Israelites.

verse 23 They haven't brought God any sheep as offerings and they have not honored Him with sacrifices.

OTOH, God has not burdened them with HIS demands.

Verse 24 means that Israel has sinned and burdened God with these sins NOT that He is burdened by hearing of the sins, but burdened by the actual sinning. God is telling them that He's had enough of their sinning. They have forgotten to honor God with offerings.

verse 25 God's compassion comes through, as always. Even though He is tired of their sins, He is the one who blots out the sins and remembers them no more.

This is my understanding.
We'll have to agree to disagree...

 

[GodsGrace]

Isaiah 30:1
Woe to the rebellious children, saith the Lord,
that take counsel, but not of me;
and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit,
that they may add sin to sin:

They cover their sins in BLOOD to that they can add sin unto sin. They create new sins for themselves daily so that they may continue to cover themselves in blood and then justify themselves by it. Covering ones sins with blood does not make for a marriage and relationship with the Spirit of the Lord.

Where does Isaiah 30:1 speak about covering sins in blood?
It's plainly saying that they do not plan according to God's will and that they pile sin upon sin.

Where does it speak of the blood??

 

[WIP]

This discussion has gone completely off topic and there are too many personal comments that if left to continue will result in a negative spiral in the tone of this discussion. I had twice asked that the discussion be brought back on topic but this has not been done. For these reasons, I am locking it for further replies.