Believing in Wrong Doctrine: Will I lose my salvation?

[chessman]

What does the phrase: “transgresses the doctrine of Christ”
mean to you?

Transgress means to exceed (or go ahead of) the limits of a true doctrine. An example would be to believe priests shouldn’t get married. Another example, closer to John’s here in this letter, would be to make a confession that Christ is the Father (oneness doctrine). That confession goes beyond or transgresses the true doctrine of Christ.

Can a person transgress a doctrine they have never believed and obeyed?

Of course. Can you exceed the speed limit if you don’t believe in speed limits?

 

[chessman]

Are you trying to say that 2 John 9, is the context of 1 John 5:10?

No. If I was, I would have said so.

I was showing you the contradiction with your assumption and then asking you the following question which you didn’t answer:

Fill in the blank with your answer:

The one not believing God _____ believed in the testimony?

A. has not
B. has once

 

[GodsGrace]

Exactly what Paul told Timothy it meant within the passage (you know, in the portion you continue to cut out):
That every creature of God is good and nothing being received with thanksgiving is to be rejected.

In theses later days, there are people who have departed from this faith. An example of departure from this faith is a priest who forbids marriage because he’s been deceived by deceitful spirits.

You do this Chessman...you cling to a word and fight tooth and nail to make it mean what YOU want it to mean.

I believe you and JLB are discussing what "depart from the faith" means? Sorry, I haven't read every post.

Please don't complicate what is so simple:
If one lives in India,
and they DEPART from that country...it means they have left, abandoned, removed themselves from....that country. They no longer live in India.

If I have faith and am saved by that faith
and I DEPART from THE FAITH, then I have left, abandoned, removed myself from THE FAITH.

Whenever Paul spoke of faith, he meant the faith we have in Jesus. What else could he possibly have meant?

And, much to your chagrin, please not 1 Timothy 3:15...it states that the church (small c) is the PILLAR OF THE TRUTH.
Wow. Some here don't even believe in churches.

Paul is telling Timothy what he is to teach. For instance verse 10 of 1 T 4 tells us that Jesus is our hope and the savior of all men.

In the last times,,,some will FALL AWAY from the faith and listen instead to demons that have deceitful spirits and will lie and not tell us the truth.

Jesus said the truth would set us free.
Free from what?
The bondage of sin.
The bondage to satan.

If we abandon, or leave, the faith, we no longer have the truth and we become once again entangled in the evil of the world and we're worse off than before.

John 8:32
2 Peter 2:20-22

 

[GodsGrace]

Transgress means to exceed (or go ahead of) the limits of a true doctrine. An example would be to believe priests shouldn’t get married. Another example, closer to John’s here in this letter, would be to make a confession that Christ is the Father (oneness doctrine). That confession goes beyond or transgresses the true doctrine of Christ.


Of course. Can you exceed the speed limit if you don’t believe in speed limits?

Transgress means to disobey a KNOWN law of God.

If you transgress the speed limit, it necessarily means you KNEW the speed limit and broke it anyway.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
TRANSGRESSION
trans-gresh'-un: From "transgress," to pass over or beyond; to overpass, as any rule prescribed as the limit of duty; to break or violate, as a law, civil or moral; the act of transgressing; the violation of a law or known principle of rectitude; breach of command; offense; crime; sin.

source: https://biblehub.com/topical/t/transgression.htm

 

[WIP]

Transgress means to disobey a KNOWN law of God.

If you transgress the speed limit, it necessarily means you KNEW the speed limit and broke it anyway.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
TRANSGRESSION
trans-gresh'-un: From "transgress," to pass over or beyond; to overpass, as any rule prescribed as the limit of duty; to break or violate, as a law, civil or moral; the act of transgressing; the violation of a law or known principle of rectitude; breach of command; offense; crime; sin.

source: https://biblehub.com/topical/t/transgression.htm

You beat me to it.

 

[chessman]

If one lives in India,
and they DEPART from that country.

You do this Wondering, make up your own context and exceed what is Scripture. India is not in the passage. Nor is salvation.

What else could he possibly have meant?

Exactly what he said, nothing more, nothing less.

And, much to your chagrin, please not 1 Timothy 3:15...it states that the church (small c) is the PILLAR OF THE TRUTH.
Wow.

Wow. I didn’t say nor do I think the church of the living God is not the pillar and support of the truth.

Jesus is our hope and the savior of all men

Are all men saved?

Transgress means to disobey a KNOWN law of God.

Actually no. From your link:

(n.) The act of transgressing, or of passing over or beyond any law​

Any law means it could be a known law or and unknown law. If a cop pulls you over for going 55 in a 45 zone you thought was 55, you’ve still transgressed the law.

 

[JLB]

Exactly what Paul told Timothy it meant within the passage (you know, in the portion you continue to cut out):
That every creature of God is good and nothing being received with thanksgiving is to be rejected.

In theses later days, there are people who have departed from this faith. An example of departure from this faith is a priest who forbids marriage because he’s been deceived by deceitful spirits.

So you believe when Paul says “the faith”, it refers to faith in marriage, not faith in Christ?


JLB

 

[WIP]

Any law means it could be a known law or and unknown law. If a cop pulls you over for going 55 in a 45 zone you thought was 55, you’ve still transgressed the law.

Also, if the law has a 40mph minimum speed limit and you drive 35, you have transgressed the law, whether you were aware of the law or not.

 

[chessman]

So you believe when Paul says “the faith”, it refers to faith in marriage, not faith in Christ?

Yes, they are still saved even though they no longer have faith in Christ for salvation.

 

[JLB]

Transgress means to exceed (or go ahead of) the limits of a true doctrine. An example would be to believe priests shouldn’t get married. Another example, closer to John’s here in this letter, would be to make a confession that Christ is the Father (oneness doctrine). That confession goes beyond or transgresses the true doctrine of Christ.

The doctrine (teaching) of Christ is what Christ taught to His disciples to teach to their disciples, which is found in the New Testament. It’s also referred to as the “truth”, because Jesus is the Truth, everything that comes out of His mouth is the truth.

Whether His Gospel, His Commandments or His Doctrine.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


See that word “abides”, it means to remain or continue.


Those who do not remain in or continue in what Christ taught and commanded, does not have God any longer.


Christ teaching and what He commanded can be summed up in loving God and loving our neighbor.

Those who violate or transgress His teaching and commandments, in which they do not continue to love by obeying His teaching or commandments, do not have or posses Him, which means they do not have or possess eternal life.


He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
1 John 5:12


I pray you consider this soberly.


Here is some context for 2 John 9



This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it.
For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.
Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 6-9




JLB

 

[Northman]

known principle of rectitude

This is a term in itself. Universal type principles like murder, don't pee on the floor in someones house, stealing, etc.

 

[GodsGrace]

You do this Wondering, make up your own context and exceed what is Scripture. India is not in the passage. Nor is salvation.

You see, sometimes it's good to use EXAMPLES.
This is done when something is difficult to understand....
Like, for instance, DEPART. What does depart mean anyway?

It means to leave something or somewhere. It means you had it or were there before and now you ARE NOT anymore.

Depart the faith requires no context...
It's just tOO simple.
Thus the example.....

Wow. I didn’t say nor do I think the church of the living God is not the pillar and support of the truth.

No Chessman. Take the time to read what I post please.
I said the church (small c) YOU are talking about the Church (capital C). The organizational church,,,the bldg,,,the church theologians, THEY have figured out the truth. Are you a theologian or biblical scholar? Neither am I. Maybe we should listen to them just a little bit?

Are all men saved?

Jesus is the savior of all men.
Not just some men, like some theology believes.
God desires all men to be saved....
of course, they have to WANT to be saved.
John 3:16

Actually no. From your link:

(n.) The act of transgressing, or of passing over or beyond any law​

Any law means it could be a known law or and unknown law. If a cop pulls you over for going 55 in a 45 zone you thought was 55, you’ve still transgressed the law.

Maybe you could read my post no. 203 again and actually answer it.

How about posting ALL of it so my statements are not taken out of context?

Could you answer to the verses I posted instead of discussing laws of speed and the such?

We were discussing what depart means....
we could get back to that, or we could stop here.

A priest saying we cannot get married does not mean he departed the faith...it means he got some doctrine wrong.
Also, if you stick to scripture it'll be easier to discuss.

What does DEPART FROM THE FAITH mean to you?
What is faith in the bible?
What does Ephesians 2:8 mean about having faith?

 

[JLB]

No. If I was, I would have said so.

I was showing you the contradiction with your assumption and then asking you the following question which you didn’t answer:

Fill in the blank with your answer:

The one not believing God _____ believed in the testimony?

A. has not
B. has once

I have no idea what you are talking about here.


As far as your claim I didn’t answer your question, I’m still waiting for an answer to my original question that you say is confusing.


Here it is with the scripture and question.



Here is the scripture. -

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1

• some will depart from the faith,

Here is my question that comes directly from the scripture.


According to your theology, if someone departs from the faith are they still saved?

• Yes, they are still saved even though they no longer have faith in Christ for salvation.

• No, they are not still saved.

(By the way, my answer is no, a person who is saved through faith in Christ, is no longer saved if they depart from the very faith through which they were saved.)




JLB

 

[ezra]

I'm sorry to say that I agree with you because I do read from some that this is possible; although most will say that they cannot lose their salvation however, they understand that sinning is not biblically acceptable.

that is a fine line we have security to many go beyond scriptures if one saying i can not but fails to live the life walk in the light as he is in the light .. odd would be against them in being saved

 

[JLB]

You do this Chessman...you cling to a word and fight tooth and nail to make it mean what YOU want it to mean.

I believe you and JLB are discussing what "depart from the faith" means? Sorry, I haven't read every post.

Please don't complicate what is so simple:
If one lives in India,
and they DEPART from that country...it means they have left, abandoned, removed themselves from....that country. They no longer live in India.

If I have faith and am saved by that faith
and I DEPART from THE FAITH, then I have left, abandoned, removed myself from THE FAITH.

Whenever Paul spoke of faith, he meant the faith we have in Jesus. What else could he possibly have meant?

And, much to your chagrin, please not 1 Timothy 3:15...it states that the church (small c) is the PILLAR OF THE TRUTH.
Wow. Some here don't even believe in churches.

Paul is telling Timothy what he is to teach. For instance verse 10 of 1 T 4 tells us that Jesus is our hope and the savior of all men.

In the last times,,,some will FALL AWAY from the faith and listen instead to demons that have deceitful spirits and will lie and not tell us the truth.

Jesus said the truth would set us free.
Free from what?
The bondage of sin.
The bondage to satan.

If we abandon, or leave, the faith, we no longer have the truth and we become once again entangled in the evil of the world and we're worse off than before.

John 8:32
2 Peter 2:20-22

What a wonderfully refreshing, simple and straightforward post.



Thank you.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Depart the faith requires no context...
It's just tOO simple.

Amen. It’s very simple.


However, I have posted the context many times when discussing this scripture, only to have it ignored.

So I don’t bother anymore.


For the sake of this thread, though I will post the context again, so there is no doubt in anyone’s mind.



Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 3:8-4:1



The Point:


In 1 Timothy 4:1, Paul uses the phrase “some will depart from the faith,” in reference to departing from the faith in Jesus Christ.



Very very simple.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Transgress means to exceed (or go ahead of) the limits of a true doctrine.

Yes. To go beyond the truth. The doctrine of Christ.

To promote false doctrine, which is heresy.

Making up things the scriptures don’t teach.

Teaching doctrines that cause people to depart from the faith.


Paul teaches that those who practice such things as heresy, will not inherit the kingdom of God.


Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21



JLB

 

[Walpole]

Hi Walpole, Welcome to the forum.

Very important questions!

I would say that the original church should have the authority to decide what is the correct doctrine.


But then it becomes a complicated discussion...

Indeed, for there has to be some body, organ or mechanism to declare what is or is not the Christian faith.

It only becomes complicated when one supplants this authority with him or herself.

 

[Walpole]

Wal,

How would you respond to this answer to your questions?

The Five Tests of False Doctrine - Tim Challies

Oz

I stopped at Test 2, as it is illogical. The very test it applies is self-refuting, for it states, "Sound doctrine grounds its authority within the Bible; false doctrine grounds its authority outside the Bible. The Bible is God’s inerrant, infallible, sufficient, complete, and authoritative revelation of himself to humanity. Doctrines that originate in the mind of God are recorded in the Word of God. There is a clear and necessary correlation between origin and authority, between God and his Word." - your source

Since this rule is not found in the Bible, it fails its own test and is thus self-refuting. For the Bible does not make these claims about its books, nor does it define which books themselves are to be included in the Bible. For example, declaring the book of Hebrews to be the inerrant, infallible, sufficient and authoritative revelation of God to humanity is based on an authority outside the Bible, as the book never makes that claim about itself.

Thus I did not proceed past Test 2.

Your link does not answer the question I posed...


---> Who or what has the authority to declare what is right doctrine?

Asked another way, how does one know what is or is not the Christian faith?

 

[JLB]

Who or what has the authority to declare what is right doctrine?

The Spirit of Truth.
The Spirit of Christ.

The One who will judge each of us on that Day, according to our deeds.


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

The Truth dwells within each of us who have believed.


The Spirit of Christ dwells in us and teaches us and leads and guides us into all truth.


He will ultimately determine who believed and taught, and practiced the truth




JLB