Believing in Wrong Doctrine: Will I lose my salvation?

[Walpole]

Exactly what Paul told Timothy it meant within the passage (you know, in the portion you continue to cut out):
That every creature of God is good and nothing being received with thanksgiving is to be rejected.

In theses later days, there are people who have departed from this faith. An example of departure from this faith is a priest who forbids marriage because he’s been deceived by deceitful spirits.

Your last sentence got my attention. A priest who forbids to marry to a couple means he is being deceived by deceitful spirits? Does your pastor marry anyone who asks him or her to? For example, if a brother and sister ask to be married and your pastor forbids the marriage, does this mean he is being deceived by deceitful spirits? Is marriage open to anyone and everyone, irregardless of impediments?

Even civil law recognizes there are some impediments to marriage.

 

[OzSpen]

I stopped at Test 2, as it is illogical. The very test it applies is self-refuting, for it states, "Sound doctrine grounds its authority within the Bible; false doctrine grounds its authority outside the Bible. The Bible is God’s inerrant, infallible, sufficient, complete, and authoritative revelation of himself to humanity. Doctrines that originate in the mind of God are recorded in the Word of God. There is a clear and necessary correlation between origin and authority, between God and his Word." - your source

Since this rule is not found in the Bible, it fails its own test and is thus self-refuting. For the Bible does not make these claims about its books, nor does it define which books themselves are to be included in the Bible. For example, declaring the book of Hebrews to be the inerrant, infallible, sufficient and authoritative revelation of God to humanity is based on an authority outside the Bible, as the book never makes that claim about itself.

Wal,

It is not illogical or self-defeating.

What does Acts 17:11 (NIV) state?

Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.​

So all teaching, preaching, scholarship, forum posts, etc must be compared with Scripture to determine their truthfulness. That's Bible!

The teaching I presented to you stated:

Sound doctrine grounds its authority within the Bible; false doctrine grounds its authority outside the Bible.​

Doesn't that statement (the first part) synchronise with Acts 17:11? Luke, under the God-breathed inspiration of the Holy Spirit, stated that to check out doctrine we go to the Scriptures.

I have moments ago submitted an article for publication in which I quoted these people:

​

(1) ‘There is no record of Caesar Augustus' decree that "all the world should be enrolled" (Lk. 2:1). The Romans kept extremely detailed records of such events’ (N F Gier 1987).​

​

(2) No records exist that Quirinius was governor of Syria when Luke wrote his Gospel. John Dominic Crossan of the Jesus Seminar stated, ‘The journey to and from Nazareth for census and tax registration is a pure fiction, a creation of Luke’s own imagination’ (Crossan 1994:20).​

Where is their authority from?

You claim:

declaring the book of Hebrews to be the inerrant, infallible, sufficient and authoritative revelation of God to humanity is based on an authority outside the Bible, as the book never makes that claim about itself.

Who gave you authority to state that? That statement is based on external authority to the Bible. Let's check!

What is the nature of God revealed in the Book of Hebrews? You are reading a different Book of Hebrews to the one I'm reading. Mine states:

16People swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged. (Heb 6:16-18 NIV).​

The God revealed in the Book of Hebrews cannot lie. So, He cannot make an error (inerrant); he cannot mislead (infallible), the sufficient one doesn't lie, and the inerrant God who cannot lie is the authoritative God who theopneustos (breathed out) the Scriptures (2 Tim 3:16).

Seems to me as though you gave us your external opinion on the lack of authority of the Book of Hebrews here. To the contrary, it is from the God who cannot lie - as revealed in Hebrews.

Oz

 

[Walpole]

The Spirit of Truth.
The Spirit of Christ.

The One who will judge each of us on that Day, according to our deeds.


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

The Truth dwells within each of us who have believed.


The Spirit of Christ dwells in us and teaches us and leads and guides us into all truth.


He will ultimately determine who believed and taught, and practiced the truth




JLB

So the "spirit of truth" or "spirit of Christ" is esoterically given to you once you choose to believe and thus each believer has the authority to declare what is right doctrine?

That's gnosticism. Furthermore, this is can be disproved by simply pointing to the fact that there exists many so-called believers with differing doctrines. Just look at this thread. Based on your opinion, there should be no difference in doctrine for all the posters here.

 

[JLB]

So the "spirit of truth" or "spirit of Christ" is esoterically given to you once you choose to believe and thus each believer has the authority to declare what is right doctrine?

Esoterically?

Each believer in whom the Spirit of Christ dwells is responsible to obey what the Lord teaches them.



JLB

 

[JLB]

and thus each believer has the authority to declare what is right doctrine?

That's gnosticism.

Maybe so.

Of course I never said “each believer has the authority to declar what I s right doctrine”.

LOL!!!!

But you know that already, don’t you.



JLB

 

[chessman]

Walpole , you bring up some good points and questions in light of Paul’s instructions to Timothy here in this passage about these later days where many are indeed attempting to re-define (depart from) the Biblical teaching concerning “marriage” (or eating cereal foods for that matter). I’ll repost Paul’s two examples of what it is to “depart from the faith” and discuss its application to the church in these days, addressing your questions:

​

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will depart from the faith, paying-attention-to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons by means of the hypocrisy of liars having been seared as to their own conscience— forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created for a receiving with thanksgiving by the ones who are believers and know the truth. Because every creature of God is good. And nothing being received with thanksgiving is to be rejected, for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.​

1 Timothy 4:1-5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 4:1-5&version=DLNT

A priest who forbids to marry to a couple means he is being deceived by deceitful spirits?

Only if he is forbidding what God has sanctified as good would this be an example of “departing from the faith”. God has sanctified marriage (not forbidden it) as being a monogamous, whole body, and sacrificial union between one man and one woman for one lifetime as “good”. Any departure from God’s sanctification concerning marriage (or food or any other teaching to include salvation) is just what it says it is; a departure from the faith. In the case of marriage, if a priest is forbidden or forbidding other to marry (and by that I mean God sanctified marriage), he (or she) has departed from the faith. Period!

Does your pastor marry anyone who asks him or her to?

No. My pastors have always insured (to the best of his ability anyway) they are requesting a God sanctified marriage. If he determines their request in not sanctified by God for whatever reason (two men, two women, unequally yoked, etc.) he will not marry them in my church.

For example, if a brother and sister ask to be married and your pastor forbids the marriage, does this mean he is being deceived by deceitful spirits?

No, because it is sanctified by God for a man to leave his father and mother (his family) to become married. It’s always been this way. If they are brother/sister, i.e. have the same parents, he’s not leaving his parents to marry her.

and said, ‘On account of this a man will leave his father and his mother and will be joined to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?​

Matthew 19:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 19:5&version=LEB

Is marriage open to anyone and everyone, irregardless of impediments?

No. It’s only a marriage if it’s a God sanctified marriage. Anything else is a departure from what God had made good.

Make sense?

Now, a question for you; Are priests forbidden to marry according to Biblical teaching?

 

[JLB]

Walpole , you bring up some good points and questions in light of Paul’s instructions to Timothy here in this passage about these later days where many are indeed attempting to re-define (depart from) the Biblical teaching concerning “marriage” (or eating cereal foods for that matter). I’ll repost Paul’s two examples of what it is to “depart from the faith” and discuss its application to the church in these days, addressing your questions:

​

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will depart from the faith, paying-attention-to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons by means of the hypocrisy of liars having been seared as to their own conscience— forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created for a receiving with thanksgiving by the ones who are believers and know the truth. Because every creature of God is good. And nothing being received with thanksgiving is to be rejected, for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.​

1 Timothy 4:1-5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 4:1-5&version=DLNT


Only if he is forbidding what God has sanctified as good would this be an example of “departing from the faith”. God has sanctified marriage (not forbidden it) as being a monogamous, whole body, and sacrificial union between one man and one woman for one lifetime as “good”. Any departure from God’s sanctification concerning marriage (or food or any other teaching to include salvation) is just what it says it is; a departure from the faith. In the case of marriage, if a priest is forbidden or forbidding other to marry (and by that I mean God sanctified marriage), he (or she) has departed from the faith. Period!


No. My pastors have always insured (to the best of his ability anyway) they are requesting a God sanctified marriage. If he determines their request in not sanctified by God for whatever reason (two men, two women, unequally yoked, etc.) he will not marry them in my church.

No, because it is sanctified by God for a man to leave his father and mother (his family) to become married. It’s always been this way. If they are brother/sister, i.e. have the same parents, he’s not leaving his parents to marry her.

and said, ‘On account of this a man will leave his father and his mother and will be joined to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?​

Matthew 19:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 19:5&version=LEB


No. It’s only a marriage if it’s a God sanctified marriage. Anything else is a departure from what God had made good.

Make sense?

Now, a question for you; Are priests forbidden to marry according to Biblical teaching?

Makes no sense at all.

It’s almost like you are expounding on another scripture, and not 1 Timothy 4:1-4



Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 1 Timothy 4:1-4

• Paul makes no mention of a God sanctified marriage in this passage.

• Paul makes no mention of what kind of marriage is good is this passage

The context refers to a person who has departed from the faith, whose conscience has become seared, hardened to the point that they are willingly complicit with teaching people demonically inspired teachings with no regret.


IOW Paul is describing what a person who has departed from the faith in Christ, is teaching because they have a seared, hardened, calloused conscience.


The only mention of marriage is not whether it’s a sanctified or ordained marriage, or good, but they simply “forbid marriage”.


That’s it!


What Paul refers to in this passage as “sanctified”, as “good”, and “to be received with thanksgiving”, is food, not marriage.




My question to you is, according to your theology, is a person who departs from faith in Christ still saved or not, since their conscience is seared, and they are teaching doctrines of demons.


Wouldn’t teaching doctrines of demons be considered heresy?





JLB

 

[chessman]

Also, if the law has a 40mph minimum speed limit and you drive 35, you have transgressed the law, whether you were aware of the law or not.

That's my point and the Biblical point as well. wondering was saying otherwise.

If you transgress the speed limit, it necessarily means you KNEW the speed limit and broke it anyway.

It IS a transgression of God's law for a man to marry another man's wife, whether he knows she's still Biblically married to another man or not. In a discussion with lawyers of Jesus's day, Jesus makes the following claim:

Some Say Get a Legal Divorce. I Say Divorcees Who Remarry Commit Adultery

31 “And it was said, ‘Whoever sends-away his wife, let him give her a divorce certificate’. 32 But I say to you that everyone sending-away his wife except for a matter of sexual-immorality is causing her to commit-adultery. And whoever marries a woman having been sent-away [from her husband] is committing-adultery.​

There IS a commitment of adultery (a transgression) if a man marries another man's wife, period. It doesn't matter if the woman is living separate from the husband or not. Although the man, or the woman or the secular legal system might think it matters whether she is living apart from her husband, it doesn't matter to God.

 

[chessman]

IOW Paul is describing what a person who has departed from the faith in Christ,

Thanks for finally admitting that to say; Paul is describing a person who has departed from the faith in Christ ..., is in other words (IOW) from that that of Paul's.

Now we're making some headway. Assuming this person was ever saved to begin with is also an assumption (IOW's from Paul's).

My question to you is, according to your theology, is a person who departs from faith in Christ still saved or not, since their conscience is seared, and they are teaching doctrines of demons.

If you will rephrase your leading and assumptive question relative to this passage such that it doesn't assume it's 'faith in Christ' (Messiah) this person departs from and that this person was once saved to begin with, I'll answer it. But as it stands, it's still (and always will be) an assumptive and leading question based on the assumptions you make with no evidence from the passage itself.

Wouldn’t teaching doctrines of demons be considered heresy?

Yes.

 

[JLB]

Thanks for finally admitting that to say; Paul is describing a person who has departed from the faith in Christ ..., is in other words (IOW) from that that of Paul's.

I have always stated that “depart from the faith” is a reference to departing from faith in Christ.

Anyone on this thread who has read my post’s will attest to this.


You on the other hand, have denied this, claiming that Paul is referring to marriage or food.


Now that you have come around to understanding the truth, I hope you are able to answer my question.


Is a person who has departed from the faith in Christ, still saved?



JLB

 

[Northman]

I have always stated that “depart from the faith” is a reference to departing from faith in Christ.

Anyone on this thread who has read my post’s will attest to this.

We can all see it plain as day.

You on the other hand, have denied this, claiming that Paul is referring to marriage or food.

I've been reading and what I saw was him try and show is that a descriptor for someone who departed from the faith is forbidding marriage and eating certain foods, which 1 Timothy 4:1-3(it's all one sentence) reveals as following doctrines of demons. One person so far has told him that forbidding marriage is simply a wrong doctrine. You did put a like on that post.

This is where a question can be asked. Is a person teaching abstinence from certain foods and forbidding marriage not saved because they are clearly following the doctrines of demons? This is the type of thing which causes your assessment of departing the faith to mean loss of salvation to come into question.

Not trying to side with anyone but you/we know chessman by now. Loss of salvation has to be plainly said. What I don't understand is why you haven't met him on his own terms yet and given him something really hard to chew on.

 

[chessman]

Paul makes no mention of a God sanctified marriage in this passage.

Actually, he does.

4 Because every creature of God is good. And nothing being received with thanksgiving is to be rejected, 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.​

A good study Bible (see the ESV study Bible for one example) will point out the language being used by Paul here (in the original Greek and along with the LXX) is specifically meant to be an allusion back to Gen 1's creation account to include Adam and Eve's sanctified marriage being call "Good" by God’s word. I’m not just making this up.

Paul makes no mention of what kind of marriage is good is this passage

Actually, he does. Nothing God has created is not good. This includes marriage and food as two specific examples.

 

[JLB]

We can all see it plain as day.


I've been reading and what I saw was him try and show is that a descriptor for someone who departed from the faith is forbidding marriage and eating certain foods, which 1 Timothy 4:1-3(it's all one sentence) reveals as following doctrines of demons. One person so far has told him that forbidding marriage is simply a wrong doctrine. You did put a like on that post.

This is where a question can be asked. Is a person teaching abstinence from certain foods and forbidding marriage not saved because they are clearly following the doctrines of demons? This is the type of thing which causes your assessment of departing the faith to mean loss of salvation to come into question.

Not trying to side with anyone but you/we know chessman by now. Loss of salvation has to be plainly said. What I don't understand is why you haven't met him on his own terms yet and given him something really hard to chew on.

Thanks bro.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Actually, he does.

4 Because every creature of God is good. And nothing being received with thanksgiving is to be rejected, 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
A good study Bible (see the ESV study Bible for one example) will point out the language being used by Paul here (in the original Greek and along with the LXX) is specifically meant to be an allusion back to Gen 1's creation account to include Adam and Eve's sanctified marriage being call "Good" by God’s word. I’m not just making this up.

Actually if a person reads what Paul writing by the Spirit has plainly written, they will understand that some people will “depart from the faith”, because they gave heed to doctrines of demons.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 1 Timothy 4:1-4


According to your theology, if a person who departs from the faith in Christ, are they still saved?


My answer is no, they are not still saved.


What is your answer?




JLB

 

[JLB]

If you will rephrase your leading and assumptive question relative to this passage such that it doesn't assume it's 'faith in Christ' (Messiah) this person departs from

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1


What does “the faith” refer to here, if not faith in Christ?




JLB

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

To Walpole

Since you've put skeptism in the bible as being an authoritive source, and skeptism that the Holy Spirit (or conversely a spirit within us) as being an authoritive source; then what do you hold as an authority for knowing what is from God?

I ask because usually people either 1) side that both the bible is a source of Knowing God, and the Holy Spirit is a source of knowing God; or 2) argue in favor of one side (the bible or the Holy Spirit) as being how we know God and what's from Him. If you don't agree with either of those stances then what do you count as an authority to know what's from God and what's Not?

 

[blair032]

Salvation is selfishly hoped for, for ourselves. And just as selfishlyly pushed on others so to save them. But then there's the worry. Who's right and who's wrong. In the war of ideas, where people fight for their beliefs, anyone can fight on the wrong side and not even know it.

My grandma and my uncle have tried to save my dad. And I selfishly hope that he is saved even though He is not Christian. My hope, as small as it is is that God is more trustworthy then our understanding. That He is greater and more able to save us then our being right in our doctrine. More then that though. This idea requires us to seek God and to strive for Him.

That's where this idea gets dicey, and the rationale to hope that we are all saved even if we don't believe moves into the territory of allowing and accepting very wrong beliefs because we want to believe the ones we love are going to be ok. I think there's a reason why God had the death penalty to false prophets in His laws to Israel.

On the other side of the coin is where we divide our beliefs up to say one kind of Christian is saved and another is not. On that level it seems even less reliable. We'd all need to be scholars to have any hope of being saved.

In the end, the only way I think if can be is of we trust God, seek Him, and try our best from there. No more rationalization of how and why we are saved, if indeed we are saved, because our rationalizations aren't God's rationalizations. Our thoughts aren't His. Trust in Him, even if we don't know the reasons or the outcomes of our fate.

After that we can move towards what are real doctrines from God and which ones aren't. Be each other's foundation if we can, and help each other be right with God. Then just hope and trust that God can help us on our journey and not leave us lost.

That's where I leave my hope. For my dad who's a different faith but loves God, and for so many others I know. It has to be in God's hands.

According to the NT, there is only one sure path for salvation. & that is a belief Jesus is God, & He died for our sins (we know live in grace not works), ask for help with changing one's life (repentance), & continued honest attempt with changing one's life.

Thing is, we are told to leave it all up to God re the rest. So why worry about others when we can only control our own destiny re life after death. Do we ever, absolutely 100%, know what others' true beliefs are? We can/should live our own lives as Jesus taught to the best of our ability, & in doing that, others may come to see this is the way to live & believe. We can also only present the case to others re Jesus, & hope tthey open their hearts to Him.

So, the bible shows how to guarantee salvation, but it also says to leave the rest to God. Yes, it also says other things re non belief, but many times OT & NT, it tells us of God's perfect justice. So ........... I know of my salvation, but cannot be sure of others 100% of the time, so why worry about it?

 

[JLB]

According to the NT, there is only one sure path for salvation. & that is a belief Jesus is God, & He died for our sins (we know live in grace not works), ask for help with changing one's life (repentance), & continued honest attempt with changing one's life.

Thing is, we are told to leave it all up to God re the rest. So why worry about others when we can only control our own destiny re life after death. Do we ever, absolutely 100%, know what others' true beliefs are? We can/should live our own lives as Jesus taught to the best of our ability, & in doing that, others may come to see this is the way to live & believe. We can also only present the case to others re Jesus, & hope tthey open their hearts to Him.

So, the bible shows how to guarantee salvation, but it also says to leave the rest to God. Yes, it also says other things re non belief, but many times OT & NT, it tells us of God's perfect justice. So ........... I know of my salvation, but cannot be sure of others 100% of the time, so why worry about it?

Hi Blair,


Welcome.


We are discussing doctrine and if believing a wrong doctrine can affect or salvation.


One of the scriptures in this discussion is -


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1


Share with us what you see in this scripture that could affect our salvation.


Thanks, JLB

 

[blair032]

Senior,

I consider there is a word that suits all of the verses for and against.

I am not convinced OSAS or OSNAS is taught in the Bible.

I find the better language to be 'endurance' or 'perseverance' to the end.

Traditionally, this has been called perseverance of the saints and is supported by Matt 24:13 (ESV), 'The one who endures to the end will be saved'.

Oz

To give more insight re OSAS vs OSNAS re the NT, it states many times, that there is one way for salvation, & not one mention how to lose salvation. Well, it does tell us blaspheming the Holy Spirit, is a way, but doing that, also tells us that a person capable of doing so, never was a true believer in the 1st place, so never qualified for salvation.

 

[chessman]

According to your theology, if a person who departs from the faith in Christ, are they still saved?

Checking, checking ... yep your question still is assuming two things not in evidence from 1Tim 4:1-4. My theology is based on Scripture, not assumptions.

What does “the faith” refer to here, if not faith in Christ?

Asked and answered.