Believing in Wrong Doctrine: Will I lose my salvation?

[blair032]

Hi Blair,


Welcome.


We are discussing doctrine and if believing a wrong doctrine can affect or salvation.


One of the scriptures in this discussion is -


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1


Share with us what you see in this scripture that could affect our salvation.


Thanks, JLB

Timothy didn't mean that those that apostatize ever were true Christians to begin with. but they would profess departure from true doctrine re Christian faith. Reference "seducing spirits" in this verse.

 

[WIP]

Timothy didn't mean that those that apostatize ever were true Christians to begin with. but they would profess departure from true doctrine re Christian faith. Reference "seducing spirits" in this verse.

Please clarify. I'm not sure I follow what you're trying to say.

 

[OzSpen]

Walpole , you bring up some good points and questions in light of Paul’s instructions to Timothy here in this passage about these later days where many are indeed attempting to re-define (depart from) the Biblical teaching concerning “marriage” (or eating cereal foods for that matter). I’ll repost Paul’s two examples of what it is to “depart from the faith” and discuss its application to the church in these days, addressing your questions:

​

But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will depart from the faith, paying-attention-to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons by means of the hypocrisy of liars having been seared as to their own conscience— forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created for a receiving with thanksgiving by the ones who are believers and know the truth. Because every creature of God is good. And nothing being received with thanksgiving is to be rejected, for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.​

1 Timothy 4:1-5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Timothy 4:1-5&version=DLNT


Only if he is forbidding what God has sanctified as good would this be an example of “departing from the faith”. God has sanctified marriage (not forbidden it) as being a monogamous, whole body, and sacrificial union between one man and one woman for one lifetime as “good”. Any departure from God’s sanctification concerning marriage (or food or any other teaching to include salvation) is just what it says it is; a departure from the faith. In the case of marriage, if a priest is forbidden or forbidding other to marry (and by that I mean God sanctified marriage), he (or she) has departed from the faith. Period!


No. My pastors have always insured (to the best of his ability anyway) they are requesting a God sanctified marriage. If he determines their request in not sanctified by God for whatever reason (two men, two women, unequally yoked, etc.) he will not marry them in my church.

No, because it is sanctified by God for a man to leave his father and mother (his family) to become married. It’s always been this way. If they are brother/sister, i.e. have the same parents, he’s not leaving his parents to marry her.

and said, ‘On account of this a man will leave his father and his mother and will be joined to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?​

Matthew 19:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 19:5&version=LEB

No. It’s only a marriage if it’s a God sanctified marriage. Anything else is a departure from what God had made good.

Make sense?

Now, a question for you; Are priests forbidden to marry according to Biblical teaching?

chessman,

I'm somewhat confused by your answer that your pastors won't marry 2 unbelievers. I find that unreasonable for 4 reasons:

1. Marriage is a creation ordinance (Gen 2:24 NIV). It is desired for all people (except for those with the gift of celibacy), not just believers.
2. Verses like Prov 18:22 (NLT) indicate "The man who finds a wife finds a treasure, and he receives favor from the Lord". It doesn't here speak of the believing man and a believing wife.
3. Where else in Scripture do we find God favouring or having mercy on unbelievers? According to John 3:16 (NIV), God loves the world, not a portion of the world.
4. Matt 5:45 (NLT), Jesus states, 'In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike'.

See: Would I Officiate a Wedding for Two Unbelievers? Yes

That's why throughout many years of ministry I've married unbelievers, on the condition I do marriage counselling with them prior to the wedding ceremony.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

To give more insight re OSAS vs OSNAS re the NT, it states many times, that there is one way for salvation, & not one mention how to lose salvation. Well, it does tell us blaspheming the Holy Spirit, is a way, but doing that, also tells us that a person capable of doing so, never was a true believer in the 1st place, so never qualified for salvation.

blair,

Do you mean that these verses do not warn about loss of salvation?

1. Hebrews 6:4-6 (ESV);
2. Hebrews 10:26 (ESV);
3. 1 Timothy 1:18-20 (ESV);

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

So the "spirit of truth" or "spirit of Christ" is esoterically given to you once you choose to believe and thus each believer has the authority to declare what is right doctrine?

That's gnosticism. Furthermore, this is can be disproved by simply pointing to the fact that there exists many so-called believers with differing doctrines. Just look at this thread. Based on your opinion, there should be no difference in doctrine for all the posters here.

Wal,

Does this apply to your own different doctrines also?

Oz

 

[chessman]

I'm somewhat confused by your answer that your pastors won't marry 2 unbelievers.

I didn’t say the pastors I have had wouldn’t marry two unbelivers.

I said “unequally yoke”: “ If he determines their request is not sanctified by God for whatever reason (two men, two women, unequally yoked, etc.) he will not marry them in my church.

So if two unbelievers (male and female of course) asked him to marry them, I wouldn’t necessarily see any reason he shouldn’t marry them outside of the church, but not in it. I don’t recall that type of situation specifically with my pastors’ experience. It would seem unusual, for sure, for two unbelievers to ask a pastor to marry them unless they knew him personally or something. I do know, however, my pastors have all said they wouldn’t marry a believer to an unbeliever. Even if one was a member of my church. I’ve seen that situation.

 

[OzSpen]

Well, it does tell us blaspheming the Holy Spirit, is a way, but doing that, also tells us that a person capable of doing so, never was a true believer in the 1st place, so never qualified for salvation.

Blair,

I'd appreciate it if you provided exegetical (out of the text) support for your statement that such a person 'never was a true believer'.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I didn’t say the pastors I have had wouldn’t marry two unbelivers.

I said “unequally yoke”: “ If he determines their request is not sanctified by God for whatever reason (two men, two women, unequally yoked, etc.) he will not marry them in my church.

So if two unbelievers (male and female of course) asked him to marry them, I wouldn’t necessarily see any reason he shouldn’t marry them outside of the church, but not in it. I don’t recall that type of situation specifically with my pastors’ experience. It would seem unusual, for sure, for two unbelievers to ask a pastor to marry them unless they knew him personally or something. I do know, however, my pastors have all said they wouldn’t marry a believer to an unbeliever. Even if one was a member of my church. I’ve seen that situation.

Thanks chessman for your further clarification.

What makes 'the church' building so sanctified that your pastor wouldn't marry 2 unbelievers in it? The church is the body of Christian believers and has never been the building to my knowledge.

In the early church, people met in houses. See: Acts 2:46-47; 12:10-17).
Paul wrote about a church in the house of Aquila and Priscilla (1 Cor. 16:19; Rom. 16:3, 5), of Philemon (Philemon 1-2), and of Nympha in Laodicea (Col. 4:15).

Were these house churches as 'sacred' as a church building today?

Oz

 

[JLB]

Checking, checking ... yep your question still is assuming two things not in evidence from 1Tim 4:1-4. My theology is based on Scripture, not assumptions.

No assumption in understanding that “the faith” is a reference to faith in Christ.


Here’s the context again, for you just in case you have forgotten.


From post 216 -


Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 3:8-4:1


The term “the faith” is contextually referring to faith in Jesus Christ, in 1 Timothy 4:1.


Paul’s opening in his first letter to Timothy -

To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Timothy 1:2


If you don’t believe it is, please tell us what
“The faith” does refer to?


I’m sure everyone in this thread would like to know, which includes the mod’s, because they are about to start working on the statement of faith, with a glossary of biblical definitions.


I’m sure your definition of what the biblical term “the faith” means will be something everyone will want to consider.


Here are some other verses that contain the term “the faith”, for your consideration.



Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith. Acts 6:7


But Elymas the sorcerer (for so his name is translated) withstood them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. Acts 13:8


strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.” Acts 14:22


So the churches were strengthened in the faith, and increased in number daily.
Acts 16:5


And after some days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish, he sent for Paul and heard him concerning the faith in Christ. Acts 24:24



Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,
Romans 1:5



Watch, stand fast in the faith, be brave, be strong. 1 Corinthians 16:13



Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.
2 Corinthians 13:5



But they were hearing only, “He who formerly persecuted us now preaches the faith which he once tried to destroy.” Galatians 1:23


But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Galatians 3:23


till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; Ephesians 4:13


Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, Philippians 1:27



JLB

 

[chessman]

What makes 'the church' building so sanctified that your pastor wouldn't marry 2 unbelievers in it?

I didn’t say the building is so sanctified nor do I believe it is. Although It is owned by members and managed by bylaws thereof. One of which, for very practical reasons, can only be reserved and used by its members.

The church is the body of Christian believers and has never been the building to my knowledge.

Your knowledge in keen.

Were these house churches as 'sacred' as a church building today?

Neither were/are sacred. But the electricity bill, cleaning services, insurance and scheduling wasn’t governed by a bunch of members back then as it is now.

 

[chessman]

Here’s the context again, for you just in case you have forgotten.

I noticed you chopped Paul’s sentence off again (mid-sentence) of what departing from the faith really means in this Scripture.

If you don’t believe it is, please tell us what
“The faith” does refer to?

Asked and answered already. Just post the rest of his sentence, you’ll find it.

 

[JLB]

Asked and answered already. Just post the rest of his sentence, you’ll find it.

I don’t want to assume what you define the term “the faith” as meaning.

It would be better for you yourself, to explain clearly in your own words, what the term
“The faith” means, so we can all benefit from your definition of this biblical term.


Here are the times Paul mentions this term is his letter to Timothy.


To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. 1 Timothy 1:2



having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 1 Timothy 1:19


holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. 1 Timothy 3:9


For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 1 Timothy 3:13



Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1



But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. 1 Timothy 5:8



For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
1 Timothy 6:10



by professing it some have strayed concerning the faith. Grace be with you. Amen. 1 Timothy 6:21



JLB

 

[JLB]

Asked and answered already. Just post the rest of his sentence, you’ll find it.

I don’t see how posting verses 2-4 is going to change what the context shows us as to what the term the faith means, but I will add it to the context that I posted of
1 Timothy 4:1.

“The faith” is mentioned many times throughout Psuls letter to Timothy, so that should tell you that the definition is not found in verses 2-4 of 1 Timothy 4.

Ok so here it is with the verses added, so please gives us your definition of what the term “the faith” refers to, if not faith in Christ.


Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 1 Timothy 3:8-4:4



JLB

 

[chessman]

I don’t want to assume what you define the term “the faith” as meaning.

Then simply read my previous answer. Or better yet, Paul’s complete sentence to Timothy (without assumption) as to what it means to “depart from the faith” in this passage.

Here are the times Paul mentions this term is his letter to Timothy.

How many examples does Paul give Timothy of what it means to “depart from the faith”?

 

[OzSpen]

I didn’t say the building is so sanctified nor do I believe it is. Although It is owned by members and managed by bylaws thereof. One of which, for very practical reasons, can only be reserved and used by its members.

Your knowledge in keen.

Neither were/are sacred. But the electricity bill, cleaning services, insurance and scheduling wasn’t governed by a bunch of members back then as it is now.

chessman,

Could that approach be unique to your church and its building? When I attended churches while a student in the USA, they rented their buildings or parts of their buildings to outside groups.

Here in Brisbane, the church I used to attend rented its auditorium to Weight Watchers for one evening a week.

All of that was covered under our church's insurance policies, etc.

Oz

 

[chessman]

Could that approach be unique to your church and its building?

I’m sure it is. But that was the question I was asked. What my pastor would do, not other churches. As a member of our church council, I saw/heard many of the issues that can and do occur with renting out the facility to non-members. Some can be significant issues, some not so significant but a controversy nonetheless. We thought it best to simply limit it to use by members only, as scheduled by the church council. All the issues went away (at least the significant ones). You’d probably be surprised at what people in my church can ‘find’ to complain about. Marrying two unbelievers or even two non-members in the building would not be an exception (although that situation had nothing really to do with our policy). As the linked article pointed out, different people have different beliefs about the subject.

 

[GodsGrace]

that is a fine line we have security to many go beyond scriptures if one saying i can not but fails to live the life walk in the light as he is in the light .. odd would be against them in being saved

Hi Ezra,
You make a very good point. I have seen those that do this...go beyond scripture, I mean.

So isn't it a good idea to show this to them...even though these persons like to hold tight to their idea of doing whatever they want AND still be saved. I mean, we should at the least be making an effort. I don't even see this in some persons. And the fact that they preach what they do might lead others astray.

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen. It’s very simple.


However, I have posted the context many times when discussing this scripture, only to have it ignored.

So I don’t bother anymore.


For the sake of this thread, though I will post the context again, so there is no doubt in anyone’s mind.



Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 3:8-4:1



The Point:


In 1 Timothy 4:1, Paul uses the phrase “some will depart from the faith,” in reference to departing from the faith in Jesus Christ.

Very very simple.

JLB

Thanks for repeating.
When the bible speaks of faith...it's absolutely speaking of faith in God...faith in Jesus...faith in the Word of God.

If we DEPART the faith...
We depart from our faith .... thus
We abandon our trust in God and our Savior.
We are left with no other means of salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

Indeed, for there has to be some body, organ or mechanism to declare what is or is not the Christian faith.

It only becomes complicated when one supplants this authority with him or herself.

I agree.
I also believe we read the Word of God, or maybe hear a sermon, and can get a special message from God that is only for us. The problem I have is that too many want to share these revelations and they are NOT meant for everyone...and so we end up with some weird doctrine...not too much on this forum, I must say.

I also look to the Early church theologians when I have a question...however, I do have to be convinced myself of everything I believe - and in what I may have a doubt, I trust God will be a merciful God.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's my point and the Biblical point as well. wondering was saying otherwise.



It IS a transgression of God's law for a man to marry another man's wife, whether he knows she's still Biblically married to another man or not. In a discussion with lawyers of Jesus's day, Jesus makes the following claim:

Some Say Get a Legal Divorce. I Say Divorcees Who Remarry Commit Adultery

31 “And it was said, ‘Whoever sends-away his wife, let him give her a divorce certificate’. 32 But I say to you that everyone sending-away his wife except for a matter of sexual-immorality is causing her to commit-adultery. And whoever marries a woman having been sent-away [from her husband] is committing-adultery.​

There IS a commitment of adultery (a transgression) if a man marries another man's wife, period. It doesn't matter if the woman is living separate from the husband or not. Although the man, or the woman or the secular legal system might think it matters whether she is living apart from her husband, it doesn't matter to God.

Did you just change the subject?
This must be some kind of fallacy that I'm not familiar with.

If I marry another man and I didn't know it's a sin,,,
God would not hold me responsible for it.

You only sin when you KNOW it's a sin.
For a sin to be a sin, you must have knowledge that it's a sin.

Man always sinned,,,but it's not until God made rules that the law was transgressed. Where there is no law, there is no transgression. There was always the Natural Law...but not only big things are sin...also many little things man may not have known about.

This is faith 101 Chessman. Don't argue all the time!