Growth Best Reply to “From Eternity Pastâ€

[netchaplain]

I wanted to share this reply because I believe it is instructionally significant to the thread’s theme concerning God’s omniscience and omnipotence.



Here's what I think:

God created everything.... including evil. If God did not create it, it wouldn't exist.

God does not do evil, but the fact that evil exists IS GOOD, because it will ultimately glorify Him through the eventual destruction of it.

Too many people want to let God off the hook for evil in the world. But the bottom line is that God does not want to be let off the hook. God is sovereign overall and nothing in the universe happens outside of God's sovereignty. He will accomplish all his purpose (Isaiah 46:9-10).

The fall of the angels in heaven was ordained by God. He was not "surprised" by it. If God did not ordain it, it wouldn't have happened.
Same for the fall of Adam and Eve. Replace them with any other couple that you know and they would have made the exact same decision. It's all good fun to call them idiots or to say "they screwed us" by sinning, but it's folly to claim that had you or I been in the garden back then that we would have made any other decision.

God does not cause the sinner to sin. He doesn't need to. The sinner will sin by default. More often, God restrains us from sinning, way more than we probably ever know (Gen 20:6).

When explaining this concept, many people use language that God "allows" sin to happen. I personally don't believe this is the best word choice because "allowing sin" implies that God is relatively unengaged and is somehow discovering humans conducting sinful acts as history plays itself out. I believe that all sin is ordained by God and is part of His design. The scripture says He declared "the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done." (Isaiah 46:9-10) He declared it! He declared all things not yet done before they would happen. He wrote every day of our lives "when as yet there were none of them." (Psalms 139:16) This is predestination. It is a script that is being played out according to His purpose and for His glory. Predestination is not a discovery of people's choices through His divine foreknowledge. It is a sovereign ordination of things not yet done.

- A Forum Member

 

[netchaplain]

Though evil came by God’s creation, this does not incur attribution to Him as doing evil. The crux of this issue concerns His foreknowledge of evil coming into creation, because that which is foreknown is that which is foreordained, thus He preplanned everything according to His “perfect will†(Rom 12:2).

He foreknew Satan would be “a murderer from the beginning,†who “abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him†(John 8:44). The fact Satan was “the anointed cherub†and “wast perfect in thy ways,†was an insignificant position because God knew eventually “iniquity†would be “found in thee†(Eze 28:14, 15).

This concept only partially parallels God’s foreknowledge of man’s iniquity, the difference being that His plans of redemption involved man only, for angels cannot be “heirs of salvation†(Heb 1:14). All angels were created, but only two humans were created and the remnant incarnated, thus bringing into reality by His preplanning, those ho would be “born of God.â€

 

[netchaplain]

I believe Satan and Adam were created apart from the sinful nature and that this nature came into being by the choice of the created, because there was a time when there was no "iniquity found" (Eze 28:15) concerning the Lucifer, and that Adam was "good" (Gen 1:31), thus also apart from the same.

The crux-issue is the fact that since God foreknew everything, He ordained (preplanned) everything to serve His purpose. This is the reason for the thread, to exhibit God's control, which in knowing, the believer can be assured that He works "all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose" (Rom 8:28).

Concerning predestination of the elect, the issue will most likely remain mostly unknown in its fullest comprehension and I believe this is the crux-passage why: "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour (Rom 9:21)?

 

[gr8grace]

Could you explain,"because that which is foreknown is that which is foreordained."

I Don't see foreknowledge as Foreordained. I See that as, making God the "cause" of.....sin,evil,hate,murder and all that is "bad."

I see Gods foreknowledge as God seeing all that will certainly happen, but His foreknowledge does not foreordain what is certain.

Foreknowledge arises from Omniscience, while election and predestination are related to Sovereignty. Foreknowledge logically preceded election and predestination, as the natural reading of Rom.8:29-30 suggests (we recognize that since God is eternal, these functions always were before or with Him, but his plan is explained to us in sequential terms to communicate to us.

1 Pet 1:2~~according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Since foreknowledge logically preceded election and predestination and Evil. And foreknowledge just sees what is certain and does not "make" it certain. Gods Sovereignty will deal with the volition of man and angels through His foreknowledge.

Maybe you can shed some light for me if I am not seeing this right?

 

[Deborah13]

I Don't see foreknowledge as Foreordained. I See that as, making God the "cause" of.....sin,evil,hate,murder and all that is "bad."

I agree. There is a scripture that I believe clearly shows that God does not foreordain all the individual evil acts of man.
Jeremiah 19:5
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

God said, He didn't command it, He didn't speak it, it didn't enter His mind to tell them to do this abomination. He said, that They caused Judah to sin. God makes it pretty clear He did not have anything to do with this sin.
I believe if He foreordained (decreed) this at any time He would not have said what He did.

 

[netchaplain]

Could you explain,"because that which is foreknown is that which is foreordained."

I Don't see foreknowledge as Foreordained. I See that as, making God the "cause" of.....sin,evil,hate,murder and all that is "bad."

I see Gods foreknowledge as God seeing all that will certainly happen, but His foreknowledge does not foreordain what is certain.

Foreknowledge arises from Omniscience, while election and predestination are related to Sovereignty. Foreknowledge logically preceded election and predestination, as the natural reading of Rom.8:29-30 suggests (we recognize that since God is eternal, these functions always were before or with Him, but his plan is explained to us in sequential terms to communicate to us.

Maybe you can shed some light for me if I am not seeing this right?

Hi GG - Thanks for asking and for your concern for the thread. If God had to change His plan or mind concerning anything He foreknew, it would mean there's something He did not know, which would conflict with the meaning of omniscience.

Everything is foreknown and unless it is interrupted, it is foreordained, and there is never a reason for God to interrupt or change anything He foreknows, because He has preplanned it all before creation.

 

[netchaplain]

I Don't see foreknowledge as Foreordained. I See that as, making God the "cause" of.....sin,evil,hate,murder and all that is "bad."

I agree. There is a scripture that I believe clearly shows that God does not foreordain all the individual evil acts of man.
Jeremiah 19:5
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

God said, He didn't command it, He didn't speak it, it didn't enter His mind to tell them to do this abomination. He said, that They caused Judah to sin. God makes it pretty clear He did not have anything to do with this sin.
I believe if He foreordained (decreed) this at any time He would not have said what He did.

Hi Deb - Thanks for your reply too. It's almost too difficult to answer differently that I did GG. The phrase "neither came it into my mind" means that it was not His desire, or as the Young's Literal Translation writes, "nor did it come up on My heart." It couldn't mean God did not know about it or even that He didn't know they were conceiving it. This would also conflict with omniscience, which means "all knowing." I do not think allowing something to transpire is the same as causing it to transpire, and this concept is where I am.

Another thought is that though God is omniscient, that doesn't necessarily mean He's thinking on everything simultaneously, which Scripture does not address.

All one can do is to understand the meaning of omniscience to use as a basis for some degree of comprehension and reasoning.

 

[Deborah13]

I Don't see foreknowledge as Foreordained. I See that as, making God the "cause" of.....sin,evil,hate,murder and all that is "bad."

I agree. There is a scripture that I believe clearly shows that God does not foreordain all the individual evil acts of man.
Jeremiah 19:5
They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

God said, He didn't command it, He didn't speak it, it didn't enter His mind to tell them to do this abomination. He said, that They caused Judah to sin. God makes it pretty clear He did not have anything to do with this sin.
I believe if He foreordained (decreed) this at any time He would not have said what He did.

Hi Deb - Thanks for your reply too. It's almost too difficult to answer differently that I did GG. The phrase "neither came it into my mind" means that it was not His desire, or as the Young's Literal Translation writes, "nor did it come up on My heart." It couldn't mean God did not know about it or even that He didn't know they were conceiving it. This would also conflict with omniscience, which means "all knowing." I do not think allowing something to transpire is the same as causing it to transpire, and this concept is where I am.

Another thought is that though God is omniscient, that doesn't necessarily mean He's thinking on everything simultaneously, which Scripture does not address.

All one can do is to understand the meaning of omniscience to use as a basis for some degree of comprehension and reasoning.

I completely agree with you. There is nothing in this scripture that indicates that He didn't know what they were going to do.

Only that He didn't decree it and never even thought of decreeing it.
"He didn't command it, He didn't speak it, it didn't enter His mind to tell them to do this abomination"

I like Young's "heart" rather than "mind". It speaks more towards my own understanding of God's nature.

Not being any of the omnis ourselves it's very difficult, at least for me, to even imagine what that may be like or how it works.

 

[netchaplain]

I completely agree with you. There is nothing in this scripture that indicates that He didn't know what they were going to do.

Only that He didn't decree it and never even thought of decreeing it.
"He didn't command it, He didn't speak it, it didn't enter His mind to tell them to do this abomination"

I like Young's "heart" rather than "mind". It speaks more towards my own understanding of God's nature.

Not being any of the omnis ourselves it's very difficult, at least for me, to even imagine what that may be like or how it works.

Nice reply and very reasonable for encouragement. Yes, only Deity can fully understand omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. Good thoughts Sis!

 

[Deborah13]

If God did not ordain it, it wouldn't have happened.

I believe that all sin is ordained by God and is part of His design.

God does not cause the sinner to sin.

Explain this please in layman's terms. Thank you.

 

[netchaplain]

I believe that all sin is ordained by God and is part of His design.

Sin ordained to come from man, not only because He knew it would and allowed it, but because I believe it's the way God chose to teach man in bringing him to Himself.

For the most part I have received good replies on all the sites (12) on which I post. But I'm now thinking the information may not have been necessary for spiritual growth, which is always my reason for posting.

 

[netchaplain]

I believe that all sin is ordained by God and is part of His design. The scripture says He declared "the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done." (Isaiah 46:9-10) He declared it! He declared all things not yet done before they would happen. He wrote every day of our lives "when as yet there were none of them." (Psalms 139:16) This is predestination. It is a script that is being played out according to His purpose and for His glory. Predestination is not a discovery of people's choices through His divine foreknowledge. It is a sovereign ordination of things not yet done.

If this is so, then wouldn't that mean that sin is Gods will for it to happen?

Hi Edward - I have to apologize for the unorthodox post and as I mentioned to Debrah, I believe I may have misjudged whether or not it should be posted. Not because of its concept, but because it can only indirectly be conducive to instruction.

I would like to repeat my earlier question in the thread to attempt to address your comment. Can God say Adam and Eve were not suppose to sin?

I have a term called "the Adam's Itch," which would replace the Adams Apple, for explanatory purposes. When God told Adam not to eat of the Tree He could have said, "Adam, I know you're going to, but don't eat of the Tree!" Adam may have have been scratching his head due to confusion for quite some time, and instead of the Adam's Apple (which typifies the bite sticking in his throat) we would be going around scratching our head.

The term "ordained" is where the difficulty lies. Ordained in the sense of being foreknown and allowed to transpire. There are a few who have replied that God does not foreknow everything, and that concept has no basis to explain anything concerning omniscience.

 

[netchaplain]

For the most part I have received good replies on all the sites (12) on which I post. But I'm now thinking the information may not have been necessary for spiritual growth, which is always my reason for posting.

Did I miss your intended point, brother? Because I can't see where this is scriptural and in that light would not cause growth but error.

Edward - I'm not sure what you mean by "intended point" but we should not be accusative in anything (unless this is not your intent), even if we believe error is intended, because we cannot know this for certain coming from someone on the internet. To me, error isn't necessarily just something untrue, but more so something intently untrue, because we can believe something and be unaware that it is untrue.

I believe the issue is intent or motive concerning posting, and please forgive me if this reply seems conflicting with yours, which is not my intent.

God's blessings to your Family!

 

[Sparkey]

When I first began to be instructed in various matters that were often the source of heated discussions, one of my instructors (considered wise by me and others) had cautioned me, saying, "These are matters that many stumble in..."

Now this instructor was in fact a Teacher who (again, according to my belief) was ordained of God (as well as by man in the lessor sense of academic accreditation). The things that he spoke of were given a witness in my spirit by the Holy Spirit. So then, I thought to myself, "I will abide in this instruction and will refrain from forming an opinion in such matters, shall instead dedicate myself to listening," and listen I did.

Today? I do have a profound understanding that is well-balanced, but this "today" is more than 40 years after that one, who being a Teacher, had accepted that from him would be required double judgment and taught with great care. I do ponder the less thorny issues found in the general epistles and often speak of the Book of James where we hear the admonition, "Let there be masters few," and have understood that the term "master" may apply to teachers and/or rabbi's of that day. It applies today as well. Those things that have been said of Paul's writings? Especially those many things that are said to be difficult? After forty years or so, I do feel that I have a much better foundation to stand upon while considering them, but I do not think that I am myself qualified to teach.

Now this isn't something that is said with guile, it is an observation about me, from me. Regarding my older brothers? Those who have studied and those who speak well on such things? I very much enjoy listening and gleaning from the fields where I am allowed to eat that which I have not planted. It's a blessing. My thanks are offered.

 

[Deborah13]

I believe that all sin is ordained by God and is part of His design.

Sin ordained to come from man, not only because He knew it would and allowed it, but because I believe it's the way God chose to teach man in bringing him to Himself.

For the most part I have received good replies on all the sites (12) on which I post. But I'm now thinking the information may not have been necessary for spiritual growth, which is always my reason for posting.

Good morning, Chaplain. I hope you have a wonderful day with the Lord and your family today.

First please consider that I think this discussion can be quite beneficial in sorting out this important aspect of God and His intentions towards us. I don't think I will ever completely understand why God does things the way He does but I don't think His intent is to leave us completely in the dark. He created us with minds to think with, not robots, and to bring our minds into agreement with Him. So at least some of the answers are found in the scriptures.

"Sin ordained to come from man." I think I'm agreeing with you.
God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden. He knew what Adam and Eve would do. He also created Adam with an ability to think thoughts that are not in accordance with God's thoughts and to act on those thoughts. I believe in this way He ordained sin.

"because I believe it's the way God chose to teach man in bringing him to Himself"
I also agree with this part of your statement.
Frankly, I can't imagine how else He could have done this. If man could not think any thoughts other than God's thoughts and therefore not sin there wouldn't be any "bringing him to Himself". I don't know how to clearly express what I am thinking, I apologize for that. Maybe this is a little better... How would we ever come to really appreciate God if we never knew sin? Could we ever love Him as deeply if we never made mistakes, felt remorse, and knew His forgiveness, His mercy and grace towards us?

Blessings to you and yours.

 

[Sparkey]

God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden. He knew what Adam and Eve would do.

Not posting here to disagree in any way, let The Holy Spirit guide each personally is what I say. Here then a thought that I don't understand but love to dwell on:

Consider 1Cor 13 while pondering what it is that God "thinks". It is beyond me, but then, I am told that His ways are beyond mine too, so that comes as no surprise. Not gonna quote, I know you already know. What is LOVE? Who is LOVE? What does LOVE do? "Hopes all things, believes all things..." and etc.

The Lord planned for all contingencies or in another way of saying, He is our every sufficiency, and works toward the good of all who love Him. Some things were closely held secrets. Consider 1Cor 2:8 "If they had known"

 

[netchaplain]

Oh, well, see that's the thing, I can't believe that you would be one to ever intentionally lead one astray, and you're usually right on the money with your posts, so I suspected that I may have somehow missed your point! I wasn't accusing you brother! I have a lot of respect for you.

Thank you for the blessings, and blessings to you and yours also.

Thanks Edward letting me know what you meant. It's reasonable that misunderstandings will arise from the concept of the OP, which a few have, and the experiences we encounter from unfamiliar concepts aren't as significant as to what we do about them. Thanks Brother and I respect you too!

 

[Sparkey]

I crave His touch. Want the Lamb of God to touch me. To heal me, to let me become more and more the man He wants me to be. Somewhere inside I know that I must still myself, must cease from my labors and prepare by becoming quiet in the inner man.

"Let that earth become fallow for it is in Rest and in that quiet place where I shall show you what it is you need... Do not miss this."

So, today as I work on ceasing from work (strange, isn't it?) there is also a prayer request, that the prayers of the saints be joined to mine and that this earnest desire leads and guides me toward the place where we are drawn to.

Be still and know that I am God.

Pardon my off topic comment, PM's are welcome so as to not sway this thread too much off topic.
~Sparrow

 

[netchaplain]

When I first began to be instructed in various matters that were often the source of heated discussions, one of my instructors (considered wise by me and others) had cautioned me, saying, "These are matters that many stumble in..."

Now this instructor was in fact a Teacher who (again, according to my belief) was ordained of God (as well as by man in the lessor sense of academic accreditation). The things that he spoke of were given a witness in my spirit by the Holy Spirit. So then, I thought to myself, "I will abide in this instruction and will refrain from forming an opinion in such matters, shall instead dedicate myself to listening," and listen I did.

Today? I do have a profound understanding that is well-balanced, but this "today" is more than 40 years after that one, who being a Teacher, had accepted that from him would be required double judgment and taught with great care. I do ponder the less thorny issues found in the general epistles and often speak of the Book of James where we hear the admonition, "Let there be masters few," and have understood that the term "master" may apply to teachers and/or rabbi's of that day. It applies today as well. Those things that have been said of Paul's writings? Especially those many things that are said to be difficult? After forty years or so, I do feel that I have a much better foundation to stand upon while considering them, but I do not think that I am myself qualified to teach.

Now this isn't something that is said with guile, it is an observation about me, from me. Regarding my older brothers? Those who have studied and those who speak well on such things? I very much enjoy listening and gleaning from the fields where I am allowed to eat that which I have not planted. It's a blessing. My thanks are offered.

Hi SH - Thanks for the interesting reply and my thanks too for reaping where I have not sowed.

 

[netchaplain]

I believe that all sin is ordained by God and is part of His design.

Sin ordained to come from man, not only because He knew it would and allowed it, but because I believe it's the way God chose to teach man in bringing him to Himself.

For the most part I have received good replies on all the sites (12) on which I post. But I'm now thinking the information may not have been necessary for spiritual growth, which is always my reason for posting.

Good morning, Chaplain. I hope you have a wonderful day with the Lord and your family today.

First please consider that I think this discussion can be quite beneficial in sorting out this important aspect of God and His intentions towards us. I don't think I will ever completely understand why God does things the way He does but I don't think His intent is to leave us completely in the dark. He created us with minds to think with, not robots, and to bring our minds into agreement with Him. So at least some of the answers are found in the scriptures.

"Sin ordained to come from man." I think I'm agreeing with you.
God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden. He knew what Adam and Eve would do. He also created Adam with an ability to think thoughts that are not in accordance with God's thoughts and to act on those thoughts. I believe in this way He ordained sin.

"because I believe it's the way God chose to teach man in bringing him to Himself"
I also agree with this part of your statement.
Frankly, I can't imagine how else He could have done this. If man could not think any thoughts other than God's thoughts and therefore not sin there wouldn't be any "bringing him to Himself". I don't know how to clearly express what I am thinking, I apologize for that. Maybe this is a little better... How would we ever come to really appreciate God if we never knew sin? Could we ever love Him as deeply if we never made mistakes, felt remorse, and knew His forgiveness, His mercy and grace towards us?

Blessings to you and yours.

Thanks again Deb for sharing your thoughts, which is I believe one of the reasons for blogging. The concept of the OP is something I've been contemplating for the last twenty years of my thirty-five year walk with Christ and finally decided to share it within this last year.