but we will all be changed - in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet

[keptandprotected]

I've never completely settled on the notion of pre tribulation rapture, and I haven't known why until I started to put pieces together from Scripture. I'm not going to make any claims like "This is it!", but this is the way it seems to me. It seems that there would be a mid trib rapture, to me.

In 1 Cor 15:52 and in 1 Thes 4:16, Paul speaks of believers being changed at the blinking of an eye and caught up or seized up into the air at the last trumpet. Isn't this last trumpet the last of the 7 trumpets being blown in the book of Revelation, Rev 11:15? Aren't there 7 seals broken (Rev 6-8) and 7 trumpets blown (Rev 8-11) before the dead are raised for judgment, and the servants, prophets and saints are rewarded (Rev 11:18)? Doesn't this imply the 7th trumpet follows all the broken seals and previous trumpets? Part of the tribulation, right? So if part of the tribulation is before Rev 11:15 and part of it is after Rev 12 (the 7 Bowl Judgments), it must be a mid tribulation rapture.


I'm very interested in this mid tribulation theory because it makes sense to me. Any comments or suggestions?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Assuming that the tribulation comprises the seal, the trumpet, and bowl judgments, that's the conclusion I've come to as well.
Just another example of why we need to read the Bible for ourselves.

It's so simple. It's been right under our noses all along.

 

[Eugene]

Dear Brother struggling, would it be farfetched to state that if there is to be a last trump there must be preceding trumps?
We read in Rev 4:1 of things that must come hereafter the beginning of the Lord's Day, and in the same chapter John observes the 24 elders and four beasts with Jesus prior to the tribulation beginning. How'd they get there if not translated? Pretrib?

After that same hereafter of the beginning of the Lord's Day in Rev 4:1 we see a great multitude arrive in heaven that came out of great tribulation. How'd they get there? Midtrib?

The last trump is at the end of the millennium when our last enemy death is destroyed according to 1 Cor 15:26.
Below is an excerpt from a study I have that may be of help on the subject.
http://www.gracegod.com/Study Books/Corinthians - Devine order Established1 - Copy.pdf

"The resurrection of all believers is called “The first resurrection,” in distinction from the resurrection of the wicked dead, or “second resurrection” - Rev. 20:14. But not all believers will be raised at exactly the same moment, or twinkle; “but every man in his own rank.” The phrase “last trump,” requires that there shall be more than one trumpet blast. The appearance of Jesus to different companies at distinct times (vs. 5-8) and the distinct visions that John had at successive times of distinct companies in heaven agree with this view, and demand the resurrection to take place at different stages. Paul's yearning for “the resurrection out from dead ones” (Phil. 3:11) and the warning of I Thes. 5:4-8 teach the same stirring truth. The “last trump,” of necessity sounds at the end of the millennium. “This corruptible and this mortal” of verse 54 includes believers on earth during the millennium, at the end of which, “death is swallowed up in victory.” Compare Isa 65:20 with 25:8. The triumphant question of verse 55 (Hos. 13:14) cannot be sounded out till the last trumpet sound has died away in eternal victory. When there is actually no more sin, there will be no more death."

 

[smaller]

I've grown to detest "escapism" eschatology.

If we observe what transpires, we'll see what happens:

Matthew 13:
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The above is "how" it will go down.

 

[JLB]

I've never completely settled on the notion of pre tribulation rapture, and I haven't known why until I started to put pieces together from Scripture. I'm not going to make any claims like "This is it!", but this is the way it seems to me. It seems that there would be a mid trib rapture, to me.

In 1 Cor 15:52 and in 1 Thes 4:16, Paul speaks of believers being changed at the blinking of an eye and caught up or seized up into the air at the last trumpet. Isn't this last trumpet the last of the 7 trumpets being blown in the book of Revelation, Rev 11:15? Aren't there 7 seals broken (Rev 6-8) and 7 trumpets blown (Rev 8-11) before the dead are raised for judgment, and the servants, prophets and saints are rewarded (Rev 11:18)? Doesn't this imply the 7th trumpet follows all the broken seals and previous trumpets? Part of the tribulation, right? So if part of the tribulation is before Rev 11:15 and part of it is after Rev 12 (the 7 Bowl Judgments), it must be a mid tribulation rapture.


I'm very interested in this mid tribulation theory because it makes sense to me. Any comments or suggestions?

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

If you will study all the scripture surrounding the resurrection of the dead in Christ, it will become crystal clear as to when we will be caught up to be with Him.

If there was one "this is it" scripture in the bible it would be 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

Of course, it would only be a "this is it" scripture if you had an understanding of the coming of the Lord and the resurrection, and when that happens... in relation to the tribulation.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


The resurrection comes first at the coming of the Lord, then those who are alive and remain [rapture], will be caught up together with them.


The resurrection/rapture is one event that occurs at the coming of the Lord.

Do you know what else occurs at the coming of the Lord?




JLB

 

[Rondmon]

I've never completely settled on the notion of pre tribulation rapture, and I haven't known why until I started to put pieces together from Scripture. I'm not going to make any claims like "This is it!", but this is the way it seems to me. It seems that there would be a mid trib rapture, to me.

In 1 Cor 15:52 and in 1 Thes 4:16, Paul speaks of believers being changed at the blinking of an eye and caught up or seized up into the air at the last trumpet. Isn't this last trumpet the last of the 7 trumpets being blown in the book of Revelation, Rev 11:15? Aren't there 7 seals broken (Rev 6-8) and 7 trumpets blown (Rev 8-11) before the dead are raised for judgment, and the servants, prophets and saints are rewarded (Rev 11:18)? Doesn't this imply the 7th trumpet follows all the broken seals and previous trumpets? Part of the tribulation, right? So if part of the tribulation is before Rev 11:15 and part of it is after Rev 12 (the 7 Bowl Judgments), it must be a mid tribulation rapture.


I'm very interested in this mid tribulation theory because it makes sense to me. Any comments or suggestions?

I am like you brother. I say this is my belief, I do not say that I have to be right on everything, but I try to put in my due diligence on each subject and to come to a Godly understanding. However if someone disagrees, I refuse to brow beat others opinions. Here is an understanding that I have come to in the last year on this "Last Trump" and Tribulation point. I think the Tribulation is pre and that God has showed us a pattern in Leviticus 23 on how things will go. Tell me what you think of this: There was Seven Feast in Leviticus 23:

The Three Spring Feasts were fulfilled by Jesus' Death
Passover (Paid the price for our sins)
First-fruits (First of the Dead raised)
Unleavened Bread (Without sin)

Then you have the Feast of Pentecost ( It is separated from the three Spring Feasts and the three Fall Feasts, it is the Church Age. Or age of Pentecost/Harvesting souls so to speak )

Now we have the final three Fall Feasts, the Feast of Trumpets in Leviticus did basically, NOTHING, except to sound the Trumpet/Alarm telling Israel that Feast of Pentecost was over and that the Feast of Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacle were on their way.

So the Trumpet (shofar) sounds (last trump), Pentecost (Church Age) is over, the Church is called home to be with Jesus in the Twinkling of an eye. Then Israels clock starts again, there is One Week (7 years) left in this age. What is next ?

Feast of Atonement !! ( Israel has to be atoned, so says the 70th Week Decree made by Daniel. )

Feast of Tabernacle ( Tabernacle means to "Dwell with God". So Israel is Atoned, then they Dwell with God Daniels 70th Week Decree/Prophecy is fulfilled. )

I think the last trumpet sound is us being called to Heaven just before God deals with Israels Atonement.

 

[ezrider]

"The resurrection of all believers is called “The first resurrection,” in distinction from the resurrection of the wicked dead, or “second resurrection” - Rev. 20:14.

I do not necessarily see the "first resurrection" in quite the same manner as you have described here. You said the first resurrection is the resurrection of all believers, but is this truly so? Have you considered that the "first resurrection" is the resurrection of Jesus Christ? And all of those who abide in Christ and He in them believe through faith that Christ is the resurrection, and on such the second death has no power? But those who are awaiting the first resurrection in what you called the resurrection of all believers, could it be that because they have not believed in Christ as the resurrection, they find themselves instead awaiting their judgement at the second death?

 

[Eugene]

Have you considered that the "first resurrection" is the resurrection of Jesus Christ? And all of those who abide in Christ and He in them believe through faith that Christ is the resurrection, and on such the second death has no power?

Dear Brother ezrider, you are correct in my opinion of Jesus being part of the first resurrection, the firstborn among many brethren (Rom 8:29)
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

Now to me we who were dead are made alive and will be physically caught up into our Savior’s very presence in different ranks just as John was shown them from the perspective of Revelation Chapter Four forward. Beginning the Lord’s Day Jesus receives His own throne in Rev 4:2. the elders (Those that remain faithful unto death) appear with Him in Rev 4:4 round about His throne, and the beasts or four living ones of Rev 4:6 are also seen in the midst and round about the throne because they faithfully kept the word of God. To be in the first resurrection would they have to be born of God as opposed to them that will face the Great White Throne judgment of Rev 20:11-12?

Now as pertaining to the catching up of saints I see three separate instances John is shown. To bring my thinking forward if there is a last trump at the end of the millennium, there by necessity must be preceding trumps, and any caught up to Christ will be in their own order. (1 Cor 15:22-23)
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (Is there but one coming of Christ? To me it is evident proof that for the elders to be with Jesus He had to come for them according to the method shown us in 1 Thes 4:16-17, the dead in Christ first and then we which remain alive.)

Now let’s consider those that come out of great tribulation according to Rev 7:9 which will be caught up according to the same plan of 1 Thes 4:16-17. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes (righteous) and palms in their hands.

Third in Rev 14:1 we see an hundred and hundred forty and four thousand on the mount Sion (The heavenly Jerusalem - Heb 12:22.) with the elders and Living ones. They were sealed in Rev 7:4-8.
Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth, and all tis will occur just prior to the revealing of the Man of sin at the middle of the week.

These are my thoughts and I appreciate your question.

 

[marie glen]

I am like you brother. I say this is my belief, I do not say that I have to be right on everything, but I try to put in my due diligence on each subject and to come to a Godly understanding. However if someone disagrees, I refuse to brow beat others opinions. Here is an understanding that I have come to in the last year on this "Last Trump" and Tribulation point. I think the Tribulation is pre and that God has showed us a pattern in Leviticus 23 on how things will go. Tell me what you think of this: There was Seven Feast in Leviticus 23:

The Three Spring Feasts were fulfilled by Jesus' Death
Passover (Paid the price for our sins)
First-fruits (First of the Dead raised)
Unleavened Bread (Without sin)

Then you have the Feast of Pentecost ( It is separated from the three Spring Feasts and the three Fall Feasts, it is the Church Age. Or age of Pentecost/Harvesting souls so to speak )

Now we have the final three Fall Feasts, the Feast of Trumpets in Leviticus did basically, NOTHING, except to sound the Trumpet/Alarm telling Israel that Feast of Pentecost was over and that the Feast of Atonement and the Feast of Tabernacle were on their way.

So the Trumpet (shofar) sounds (last trump), Pentecost (Church Age) is over, the Church is called home to be with Jesus in the Twinkling of an eye. Then Israels clock starts again, there is One Week (7 years) left in this age. What is next ?

Feast of Atonement !! ( Israel has to be atoned, so says the 70th Week Decree made by Daniel. )

Feast of Tabernacle ( Tabernacle means to "Dwell with God". So Israel is Atoned, then they Dwell with God Daniels 70th Week Decree/Prophecy is fulfilled. )

I think the last trumpet sound is us being called to Heaven just before God deals with Israels Atonement.

Hi.. I've never thought of it like that! I've gotten it pretty fixed in my head that His first advent fulfilled the Spring Holy Days of Lev 23, so then, surely(?) the fall ones will be fulfilled by His long 2nd advent.. Trumpets being those perilous trumpets and the last one being His return, and within which are the 7 bowls quickly poured out (concurrent?) thus He comes in fire and with His angels to gather His elect from one end under heaven to the other.. the resurrection of all believers and catching away of those who remain (survive) on earth. [At the 7th trump, that is, previous saints in heaven visions being in Spirit, like Paul said, even now, we sit in heavenly places with Jesus. Revelation being a simple story basically, but interspersed with Spirit, like in prayer visions.. one or two inserts which can stand all on their own, and a few curtains closing and opening.. and a little distracting dust from the hooves of the 4 horses of apocalypse, keeping it mysterious so we must ask Him(?) interact w Him on it.. we all love a mystery do we not?]

Then 10 days/1000 years later DOA (Day of Atonement/Judgment - great national/collective day of weeping and repentance, for the DOA (dead on arrival/still in their sins) and whosoever is not a believer, or that is, written in the book of life will go to the corrective lake of fire "aionian".. Then is Tabernacles! When God becomes "all in all" making all, things new.

"All things in heaven and earth being gathered into Jesus" - Ephesians 1:10; Col 1:20.

The three Fall Holy Days corresponding with the three peaks of His long 2nd advent.

A very interesting topic/thing to ponder.. Lots of interesting views on this!

God bless!