Calvinism and Arminianism are both wrong!

[childeye]

You are soo smart I'm sending a holy kiss yer way.

Romans 16:16
1 Cor. 16:20
2 Cor. 13:12
1 Thes. 5:26

Yeah I'm what the three stooges called a wise guy. Not in any real sense though. But I appreciate your Holy Kiss and give one right back. I've prayed a special blessing unto you and your loved ones. Since I'm included in that company, it's always a win win with God.

 

[MarkT]

Yes, both positions are WRONG.

How so?

Just look at the presentation Paul gave us about himself, and anyone should be able to SEE THE PROBLEMS with both Calvinism and Arminian postures. I'd call both of the positions a general accounting failure:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

This is obviously something he suffered, because the whole thing is about his sufferings, 2 Cor. 11-12 and 'in the flesh' means it is physical. A 'thorn' was given him in the flesh. What is a thorn in the flesh? Is it a source of pleasure or is it a source of pain? Paul says it keeps him from being too elated about the revelations he was having. And so he asks the Lord to relieve him. How do you explain Paul besought the Lord that it should leave him? ie. the pain/thorn/messenger of Satan.

 

[JohnDB]

This is obviously something he suffered, because the whole thing is about his sufferings, 2 Cor. 11-12 and 'in the flesh' means it is physical. A 'thorn' was given him in the flesh. What is a thorn in the flesh? Is it a source of pleasure or is it a source of pain? Paul says it keeps him from being too elated about the revelations he was having. And so he asks the Lord to relieve him. How do you explain Paul besought the Lord that it should leave him? ie. the pain/thorn/messenger of Satan.

In 2Cor 11-12 this thorn is sometimes thought of as internal scarring that was a result of beatings received from Alexander the metalworkers efforts to have Paul killed. It kept Paul somewhat crippled and weak appearing as he couldn't move as well as he once did due to constant pain...Kinda like a hernia might.

Of course it's all speculation as modern inspection of Paul's bones isn't likely to happen. No one is absolutely positive of the sarcophagus that he is contained within.

 

[smaller]

This is obviously something he suffered, because the whole thing is about his sufferings, 2 Cor. 11-12 and 'in the flesh' means it is physical. A 'thorn' was given him in the flesh. What is a thorn in the flesh? Is it a source of pleasure or is it a source of pain? Paul says it keeps him from being too elated about the revelations he was having. And so he asks the Lord to relieve him. How do you explain Paul besought the Lord that it should leave him? ie. the pain/thorn/messenger of Satan.

A messenger of Satan was a specific entity that was not Paul. Connect to Gal. 4:13-14 and we can see it was "temptation" which Paul also references in Romans 7:7-13 and Romans 7:17-21. All in direct correlation to Mark 4:15.

Ain't rocket science to figure it out.

 

[MarkT]

A messenger of Satan was a specific entity that was not Paul. Connect to Gal. 4:13-14 and we can see it was "temptation" which Paul also references in Romans 7:7-13 and Romans 7:17-21. All in direct correlation to Mark 4:15.

Ain't rocket science to figure it out.

Gal. 4:13-14, Paul talks about his bodily ailment, not temptation. Romans 7:13 is about the law and sin. Romans 7:17-21 is about the weakness of the flesh re. sin and Mark 4:15 is about the word that falls on the path. 2 Cor. 11-12 is about Paul's sufferings.

The thorn in his flesh is the messenger of Satan, figuratively speaking. So it's something physical. I can't say what it is - could be a broken bone that didn't set right - except it is painful. Considering what Paul had to endure, it could be anything. Consider what the thorn/messenger is telling Paul - if you preach the gospel, you will be stoned, for example.

 

[MarkT]

In 2Cor 11-12 this thorn is sometimes thought of as internal scarring that was a result of beatings received from Alexander the metalworkers efforts to have Paul killed. It kept Paul somewhat crippled and weak appearing as he couldn't move as well as he once did due to constant pain...Kinda like a hernia might.

Of course it's all speculation as modern inspection of Paul's bones isn't likely to happen. No one is absolutely positive of the sarcophagus that he is contained within.

Paul tells us he received the forty lashes less one five times at the hands of the Jews, and three times he was beaten with rods, and once he was stoned. 2 Cor. 11:24-25 I believe him, so I don't see any point in inspecting his bones.

 

[smaller]

Gal. 4:13-14, Paul talks about his bodily ailment, not temptation.

I'll have to go with the obvious statement of facts.

Gal. 4:
13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Romans 7:13 is about the law and sin.

Indeed. Specifically how indwelling sin results in evil thoughts, in the case of Romans 7:7-13, concupiscent thoughts, specifically, sexual thoughts and lusts.

Starting to get the picture yet?

Romans 7:17-21 is about the weakness of the flesh re. sin

Romans 7:17 & 20 is about the actions of "NO MORE I" in Paul's flesh. Romans 7:21 is about EVIL present with Paul. Are you seeing it yet?

and Mark 4:15 is about the word that falls on the path.

Don't know what Bible you're reading but Mark 4:15 is very specifically about Satan stealing the Word from people's hearts so they couldn't believe. Just like Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 and many other scriptures likewise.

2 Cor. 11-12 is about Paul's sufferings.

It's a direct statement related to a messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh.

But, when you have people like you who's positions make people devils, they tend not to see well. Romans 11:8.

The thorn in his flesh is the messenger of Satan, figuratively speaking.

A messenger of Satan is a real adverse spirit entity that was not Paul. The same verbiage is deployed in the O.T. linking Satan to thorns and briers. Isa. 27:1-4.

So it's something physical. I can't say what it is - could be a broken bone that didn't set right - except it is painful. Considering what Paul had to endure, it could be anything. Consider what the thorn/messenger is telling Paul - if you preach the gospel, you will be stoned, for example.

A messenger of Satan CERTAINLY can't be an obvious MESSENGER OF SATAN though, huh?

Take a much closer LOOK at Mark 4:15 for what might be going on with you.

 

[MarkT]

I'll have to go with the obvious statement of facts.

Gal. 4:
13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

Which Bible are you using?

The RSV has it,
Galatians 4:12-14Revised Standard Version (RSV)
12 Brethren, I beseech you, become as I am, for I also have become as you are. You did me no wrong; 13 you know it was because of a bodily ailment that I preached the gospel to you at first; 14 and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me, but received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus.

So Paul is talking about his physical condition when he preached the gospel to the Galatians at first, and he said they didn't despise him at that time, rather they received him as an angel of God. So then he said, 'what has become of the satisfaction you felt?' I don't see the word 'temptation'.

Indeed. Specifically how indwelling sin results in evil thoughts, in the case of Romans 7:7-13, concupiscent thoughts, specifically, sexual thoughts and lusts.

Starting to get the picture yet?

Romans 7:7-13 is about the law and the effect of the law on the carnal man, speaking of the desire of the flesh to do evil. So Paul said, I know nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. Romans 7:18

Romans 7:17 & 20 is about the actions of "NO MORE I" in Paul's flesh. Romans 7:21 is about EVIL present with Paul. Are you seeing it yet?

Nope. No connection at all. We are not discussing what he said about the flesh re.sin. We're talking about the thorn in Paul's flesh which was causing him pain. And he asked the Lord to take it away. He's not asking the Lord to take away a spiritual entity.

Don't know what Bible you're reading but Mark 4:15 is very specifically about Satan stealing the Word from people's hearts so they couldn't believe. Just like Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 and many other scriptures likewise.

Actually, if anyone hears the word of the kingdom and doesn't understand it, the evil one, Satan, comes and snatches away what is sown. Matthew 13:19 But we're not discussing the parable of the sower.

It's a direct statement related to a messenger of Satan in Paul's flesh.

But, when you have people like you who's positions make people devils, they tend not to see well. Romans 11:8.

It's got nothing to do with what Paul said about the thorn in his flesh. Mark 4:15 is about the word landing on the path, which suggests a hardness of the heart. These people hear but they don't understand because their hearts are hardened.

And if you don't believe the Jews were devils, what can I say? Jesus said they were of their father the devil. It means they had the devil's spirit. Their will was to do their father's will.
John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

A messenger of Satan is a real adverse spirit entity

that was not Paul. The same verbiage is deployed in the O.T. linking Satan to thorns and briers. Isa. 27:1-4.

Thorns and weeds are the sons of the evil one. ie. false teachers and false prophets.
Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.

A messenger of Satan CERTAINLY can't be an obvious MESSENGER OF SATAN though, huh?

Take a much closer LOOK at Mark 4:15 for what might be going on with you.

He's not talking about a spiritual entity. The thorn is in his flesh. It's got nothing to do with the desire of the flesh and sin. It's got nothing to do with Satan taking away what is sown.

Paul calls it a weakness, and he asked the Lord to take it away, but the Lord said,
2 Corinthians 12:9
but he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” I will all the more gladly boast of my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Why did Paul say he was content with his weaknesses? and "for when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Cor. 12:10 Is he boasting of this spiritual entity you see?

 

[civilwarbuff]

I'll have to go with the obvious statement of facts.

Gal. 4:
13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

KJ2000 says "trial which was in my flesh" so it is dependent on the translation.....

 

[smaller]

Which Bible are you using?

The good old KJV. The majority of versions translate it as "temptation."

The RSV has it,
Galatians 4:12-14Revised Standard Version (RSV)
12 Brethren, I beseech you, become as I am, for I also have become as you are. You did me no wrong; 13 you know it was because of a bodily ailment that I preached the gospel to you at first; 14 and though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me, but received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus.

So Paul is talking about his physical condition when he preached the gospel to the Galatians at first, and he said they didn't despise him at that time, rather they received him as an angel of God. So then he said, 'what has become of the satisfaction you felt?' I don't see the word 'temptation'.

I don't doubt that blinded translators produce blinded translations.

A simple litmus test is this: Is the tempter real and does the tempter tempt internally? IF any believer answers yes, as they should, the answer should be openly obvious. IF they say that isn't the case they are more than likely blinded by that working/entity and are, as such blinded, blatant heretics if we dig around their ash pile for a bit to find it.

Since you think mankind are devils I pretty much know your brand already.

Romans 7:7-13 is about the law and the effect of the law on the carnal man, speaking of the desire of the flesh to do evil. So Paul said, I know nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. Romans 7:18

Paul defined the sin indwelling his flesh as "NO MORE I" twice in Romans 7:17 & 20. We also know from 1 John 3:8 that SIN IS OF THE DEVIL.

There is no legitimately escaping the scriptural math here with sin being of the devil OR a messenger of Satan in the flesh of Paul, 2 Cor. 12:7.

Nope. No connection at all. We are not discussing what he said about the flesh re.sin. We're talking about the thorn in Paul's flesh which was causing him pain. And he asked the Lord to take it away. He's not asking the Lord to take away a spiritual entity.

What version do you use that eliminates "messenger of Satan" from 2 Cor. 12:7???

55 versions of the BIBLE are consistent on this count, that a messenger of Satan tormented or buffeted Paul.

Actually, if anyone hears the word of the kingdom and doesn't understand it, the evil one, Satan, comes and snatches away what is sown. Matthew 13:19 But we're not discussing the parable of the sower.

At least you acknowledge the principle of another entity that is NOT MAN is stealing from their heart. The same statements are found in Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4,
Eph. 2:2 etc.

And if you don't believe the Jews were devils, what can I say?

I'd say you're spiritually blinded and under the influence of an anti-semetic spirit to boot. Jews are Gods children. Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6, Matt. 23:9

 

[ezra]

messenger of satan was all the so called religious people who despised him every place he went he found opposition. he spent time i cold dungeons stoned left for dead stripped

 

[atpollard]

The good old KJV. The majority of versions translate it as "temptation."

I am fairly certain that this statement is inaccurate. There are several translations that render Galatians 4:14 as 'temptation' (KJV and Darby IIRC) but many more do not. I seem to recall one translation used 'temptation' but applied it to the Galations rather than Paul in that verse.

The RKJV changed it from temptation (as already noted by another poster).
(I am not commenting on the substance of your basic argument. Just questioning the word 'majority' with respect to translations.)

 

[MarkT]

The good old KJV. The majority of versions translate it as "temptation."

That's not true at all. The RSV is the best translation. The NKJV also has it, - 13 You know that because of physical infirmity I preached the gospel to you at the first. 14 And my trial which was in my flesh you did not despise or reject, but you received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus. Gal. 4:13-14 The ESV also has it, - 'because of a bodily ailment', and 'though my condition was a trial to you.'

A simple litmus test is this: Is the tempter real and does the tempter tempt internally? IF any believer answers yes, as they should, the answer should be openly obvious. IF they say that isn't the case they are more than likely blinded by that working/entity and are, as such blinded, blatant heretics if we dig around their ash pile for a bit to find it.

Was the tempter present in Jesus' flesh? Matthew 4:3 says, 'And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.” So Satan spoke. We even have his words.
Was the tempter present in Eve's flesh? No. The Serpent/Satan spoke to Eve. So it is wrong to say there is an entity present in the flesh. I agree with James - but each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. James 1:14

Since you think mankind are devils I pretty much know your brand already.

I didn't say mankind are devils. I said the Jews who wanted to stone Jesus were devils - they had the devil's spirit.
John 8:44
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Paul defined the sin indwelling his flesh as "NO MORE I" twice in Romans 7:17 & 20. We also know from 1 John 3:8 that SIN IS OF THE DEVIL.

There is no legitimately escaping the scriptural math here with sin being of the devil OR a messenger of Satan in the flesh of Paul, 2 Cor. 12:7.

But Paul isn't talking about sin in 2 Cor. 12:7. Follow his train of thought. The Jews (Satan in spirit) beat him, stoned him, left him weak and in pain - disabled. Gal. 4 supports the idea Paul had a bodily ailment, a disability. The KJV calls it an infirmity. Paul asked the Lord to take it away.

Where do you see the word 'sin?' What makes you think he is talking about sin?

At least you acknowledge the principle of another entity that is NOT MAN is stealing from their heart. The same statements are found in Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4,
Eph. 2:2 etc.

I'd say you're spiritually blinded and under the influence of an anti-semetic spirit to boot. Jews are Gods children. Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6, Matt. 23:9

See. I have to be insulted too.

 

[smaller]

I am fairly certain that this statement is inaccurate. There are several translations that render Galatians 4:14 as 'temptation' (KJV and Darby IIRC) but many more do not. I seem to recall one translation used 'temptation' but applied it to the Galations rather than Paul in that verse.

Seriously the majority of translations state "temptation."

The observation is not made in a vacuum. Satan tempts, bottom line.

The RKJV changed it from temptation (as already noted by another poster).
(I am not commenting on the substance of your basic argument. Just questioning the word 'majority' with respect to translations.)

I'm only surprised how many translations miss the mark entirely based on their inability to see the reality of Mark 4:15, 1 John 3:8, 2 Cor. 11:3, Romans 11:8, Romans 7:17-21, Romans 11:32 etc etc.

Modern translations generally tend to diminish the "other party that is not MAN" factor of the scriptures JUST AS Mr. Calvin and Arminius likewise did.

 

[MarkT]

The messenger of Satan was IN Paul's flesh. 2 Cor. 12:7. I doubt that another person was IN Paul's flesh.

Here's the drill again: Mark 4:15, Romans 7:17-21, Romans 11:32, 1 John 3:8.

To see just Paul IS Spiritual blindness caused by SATAN.

The thorn was in his flesh. So he sees the thing he has to suffer is akin to Satan sending a message. The messenger is the thorn that is causing him pain.

 

[smaller]

The thorn was in his flesh. So he sees the thing he has to suffer is akin to Satan sending a message. The messenger is the thorn that is causing him pain.

A messenger of Satan is a specific adverse ENTITY/AGENT.

There is a superabundance of scriptural evidence of the engagements of these agents withIN mankind in the Gospels. This factor is one of the outstanding hallmarks of Christianity, the OBSERVATIONS of these interactions and the presentation of them as REAL ADVERSE TO MANKIND AGENTS, to which Mr. Calvin, Mr. Arminius and large number of believers are also somewhat blinded to in lesser or greater degrees. Your positional sights are just an extension of similar shortsightedness, which scriptures propose are IMPOSED on people by those agents.

Mark 4:15 is and has been a reality for everyone who has ever lived other than God in Christ Himself. So is Romans 7:21, a reality for everyone who has ever lived. And yes, these scriptural facts are directly related and are also related to Paul's statements of fact in 2 Cor. 12:7, Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17 & 20, Romans 7:23, 1 Tim. 1:15, 2 Tim. 2:20-21 and many others likewise.

In fact this specific matter is soooo entirely obvious it's amazing that it's brushed off, ignored and overlooked continually, particularly when the information is to be personally applied. I can only attribute those efforts to very real spiritual blindness being forced/imposed on the observers by adverse agents, to which Mark 4:15 speaks of.

Your positions blow off and disregard the principles that scripture revolve around.

Where the Word is sown, Satan DOES steal same from the heart.

This means Satan is MOVED by scriptures, to resist, IN MAN.

Now, ask me how many believers are cognizant of this fact and I'd say a very large number of same are completely clueless. And if that information has to be personally applied, instant denial and obfuscation bursts forth in the most predictable fashions, to which your sights are just another example.

Jews are devils? Really?

smh at such blindness. sad sad sad

 

[MarkT]

A messenger of Satan is a specific adverse ENTITY/AGENT.

There is a superabundance of scriptural evidence of the engagements of these agents withIN mankind in the Gospels. This factor is one of the outstanding hallmarks of Christianity, the OBSERVATIONS of these interactions and the presentation of them as REAL ADVERSE TO MANKIND AGENTS, to which Mr. Calvin, Mr. Arminius and large number of believers are also somewhat blinded to in lesser or greater degrees. Your positional sights are just an extension of similar shortsightedness, which scriptures propose are IMPOSED on people by those agents.

Mark 4:15 is and has been a reality for everyone who has ever lived other than God in Christ Himself. So is Romans 7:21, a reality for everyone who has ever lived. And yes, these scriptural facts are directly related and are also related to Paul's statements of fact in 2 Cor. 12:7, Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17 & 20, Romans 7:23, 1 Tim. 1:15, 2 Tim. 2:20-21 and many others likewise.

In fact this specific matter is soooo entirely obvious it's amazing that it's brushed off, ignored and overlooked continually, particularly when the information is to be personally applied. I can only attribute those efforts to very real spiritual blindness being forced/imposed on the observers by adverse agents, to which Mark 4:15 speaks of.

Your positions blow off and disregard the principles that scripture revolve around.

Where the Word is sown, Satan DOES steal same from the heart.

This means Satan is MOVED by scriptures, to resist, IN MAN.

Now, ask me how many believers are cognizant of this fact and I'd say a very large number of same are completely clueless. And if that information has to be personally applied, instant denial and obfuscation bursts forth in the most predictable fashions, to which your sights are just another example.

Jews are devils? Really?

smh at such blindness. sad sad sad

Now you're getting me angry. The men who wanted to stone Jesus were devils. I don't care if they were Jews, Russians, pigmies, tall, short, Republican or Democrat, they were of their father, the devil.

 

[smaller]

Now you're getting me angry. The men who wanted to stone Jesus were devils. I don't care if they were Jews, Russians, pigmies, tall, short, Republican or Democrat.

You're not getting the picture whatsoever. Devils are not people. This is not a hard concept to understand. Satan and his messengers are not humans. They're wicked spirits, UNSEEN.

It's amazing that people can arrive at your conclusion because it's nowhere to be found in scripture. Yet there you sit, claiming Jews are devils. bizarre. out there.

For the record, these are not/were not people or Jews:

Eph. 6:
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

What Mr. Calvin, Arminius and apparently you don't understand is that the wrestling match transpires within:

Romans 7:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

When believers don't know or perceive this matter, they are in fact stolen from by that which we war against. Mark 4:15. Your position, case in point of fact.

 

[Anto9us]

I am not convinced that Paul's thorn in the flesh was physical only.

Maybe he had GUILT about some of his own statements in epistles concerning predestination -- maybe he could see into the future and see that it would result in Calvinism...

Peter wrote of Paul that "in his epistles are some things hard to be understood, which those who are unstable wrestle with to their own destruction"

 

[civilwarbuff]

Now you're getting me angry. The men who wanted to stone Jesus were devils. I don't care if they were Jews, Russians, pigmies, tall, short, Republican or Democrat, they were of their father, the devil.

I really doubt that those men were devils/demons. No doubt they believed they were upholding the Mosiac Law by stoning what they saw as a blasphemer.
Romans 11
18 Boast not against the branches. But if you boast, you bear not the root, but the root you.
19 You will say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not arrogant, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also not spare you.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, who are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. KJ2000