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Calvinism and Arminianism are both wrong!
- Thread starter atpollard
- Start date
Nathan
Member
This is what I found interesting about Calvinism. It does not defend limited atonement - it only defends God's ability to do so if He chose it. Its a circular defense(and a good one at that).
This is why Calvin birthed the idea of his faith. Because he could not reconcile how God 'wanted' all the world to be saved, and yet so many were not - and obviously some where totally against God. So that called God's sovereignty into question. How can God be 'all powerful' - want all men to be saved - and then some not be saved?
One idea is that all men do end up saved. But that idea is completely out of the question because there is so much against it in the Bible.
The next theory you have to come to is the idea that His grace is only for 'certain' ones. Therefore, it is 'limited' to them. Then you have to draw out the rest of the theory that they have to be called, and have to be kept, etc. But really, Calvin's thoughts all started with this idea of limited atonement.
The issue is, everyone who rejects "universalism" does not have to believe in limited atonement. I reject universalism, but I also reject limited atonement. There is a difference between 'limited' and 'available'. If its limited, then its not fully available. If its fully available, then its not limited.
I believe God's atonement is fully available to all. I believe His sovereignty gives Him the right(and power) to decide to let people choose Him or not. The reason I believe all of this is because it is all throughout the Bible.
This is why Calvin birthed the idea of his faith. Because he could not reconcile how God 'wanted' all the world to be saved, and yet so many were not - and obviously some where totally against God. So that called God's sovereignty into question. How can God be 'all powerful' - want all men to be saved - and then some not be saved?
One idea is that all men do end up saved. But that idea is completely out of the question because there is so much against it in the Bible.
The next theory you have to come to is the idea that His grace is only for 'certain' ones. Therefore, it is 'limited' to them. Then you have to draw out the rest of the theory that they have to be called, and have to be kept, etc. But really, Calvin's thoughts all started with this idea of limited atonement.
The issue is, everyone who rejects "universalism" does not have to believe in limited atonement. I reject universalism, but I also reject limited atonement. There is a difference between 'limited' and 'available'. If its limited, then its not fully available. If its fully available, then its not limited.
I believe God's atonement is fully available to all. I believe His sovereignty gives Him the right(and power) to decide to let people choose Him or not. The reason I believe all of this is because it is all throughout the Bible.
atpollard
Member
The issue is, everyone who rejects "universalism" does not have to believe in limited atonement. I reject universalism, but I also reject limited atonement. There is a difference between 'limited' and 'available'. If its limited, then its not fully available. If its fully available, then its not limited.
I believe God's atonement is fully available to all. I believe His sovereignty gives Him the right(and power) to decide to let people choose Him or not. The reason I believe all of this is because it is all throughout the Bible.
Consider the people in Matthew 7:21-23.
Did Jesus atone for their sins on the cross?
Is that sin then being punished twice?
Jesus atoning blood must be limited by either application or efficacy, because all sins are not forgiven ... some go to hell.
Why do they go to hell when Jesus died for sin?
For which sins did Jesus die?
To which sins was the blood applied?
[I really wish it was after Easter.
]
Nathan
Member
Consider the people in Matthew 7:21-23.
Did Jesus atone for their sins on the cross?
Is that sin then being punished twice?
Jesus atoning blood must be limited by either application or efficacy, because all sins are not forgiven ... some go to hell.
Why do they go to hell when Jesus died for sin?
For which sins did Jesus die?
To which sins was the blood applied?
[I really wish it was after Easter.
I really don't want to be a temptation for you. So please do not think that you have to defend anything I say. If you want, I will not post anything until after Easter also. Just look at this, if you can, as a 'pleasant' conversation.
Jesus blood is made available. It was not, and is not, imputed on someone apart from faith. Therefore, when He died, and it was "finished", the souls of yester years who died in faith, had the blood of Christ imputed on them. That is why you see the souls of the saints resurrected 'before' the resurrection of the rest of us. They couldn't have done that until that point in God's "time", because the blood of Christ had not yet been shed(even though it was applied to the OT saints already through faith).
So, the reason people go to hell is, because while the blood of Christ is available to them, they reject it.
Example; If I wrote a check to you for $10, you have the choice to take it or leave it. I am not going to force you to take it, nor am I going to tell you, its not for you, when you come to get it. Its yours. Its free. Its mine. I'm giving it to you. You did not earn it.
Now, I could say(if I had enough money), that I would offer this to everyone who would hear it. If I had the money, I could just have all these checks just waiting for people to come get them. I bet, many people would say "eh, that's not that big of a deal" and just not want it. Does that mean I did not offer it to them? Does that mean it was not available to them? Does that mean(again, if I had the money) I did not have the money in the bank for each check?
God has the power(money in the bank), and makes it available to all, and gives the individual the choice to receive it. That does not negate the efficacy of the power given to the individual who does receive it.
You cannot look at God's atonement as a one big check for a 'group' any more than you can look at it as one for the 'whole world'. God's atonement, Jesus blood, is an individual atonement. He died once, and covered every single sin debt there is. We just have to receive that 'payment' He made in the form of faith. The one who rejects that payment, then has to pay for the sins himself. Since a man cannot pay for the sins, himself, he will then have to suffer the judgment, which is hell.
Matthew 26:26-28
Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying,
“Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Just like they each had to drink, individually, so too do believers have to believe - individually. Jesus did not drink and say that because He drank it they are forgiven. He told them to drink it. They had to take the cup and drink it - they had to receive it.
To answer your questions in order:
"Why do they go to hell when Jesus died for sin?" - Because they reject His payment. They do not receive it.
"For which sins did Jesus die?" - For every sin, of every person, who accepts His payment. For all the sins of those who receive Christ.
"To which sins was the blood applied?" - Every sin that has been paid for by Christ. This does not include the people who reject God's payment.
atpollard
Member
I agree 100% ... and I am a 5 point Calvinist. (Does that tell you anything about the 'limitation' of the atonement in the 'Limited Atonement' of Calvinism?)
Last edited:
Nathan
Member
Yea, you lost me on that thought. lol. Maybe if I chew on it I'll get it in a bit.
After talking with you a bit, I do have a better understanding of what the belief is behind why someone goes to hell. I can say that I do understand that Calvinists do not 'think' it is because God predestines them there.
However, sometimes when you 'think' or focus on one thing, you miss what else is in your view.
Case in point, a guy I work with was looking for mushrooms(the good kind) and stared at a patch of briers for a bit. He noticed something just not right but couldn't put his finger on it. Then he saw a tiny snake coiled up not much bigger than a silver dollar. Right in front of that snake there was also a nice mushroom.
Had he not studied the thicket for a little bit, he might have missed out on everything - just walking on by. Had he seen the snake, and not the mushroom, he would have walked on. Worse yet, if he had seen the mushroom, and not the snake - ouch!
Point being - Even though Calvinists don't "think" that God predestines people to hell, the fact is, if He does not give them a chance to believe, then that means He is predestining them - because He created them.
I understand that it might not be looked at this way by Calvinists, but those standing outside the brier thicket are studying it and see both the snake and the mushroom.
atpollard
Member
Read post #80 as well.
I look forward to a polite discussion after Easter.
Jim Parker
Member
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
How unfortunate.
The idea the "god is terribly angry" makes God less than God.
It assumes:
(1) That God was unaware that man would sin.
(2) That sin is an offense against God's dignity.
(3) That God is insecure to the point that He is offended when someone doesn't show Him proper respect.
(4) That God is kike men who get angry when they don't get their way.
That's a very petty little god. (Sounds more like Kim Jong-un than the God of scripture)
By the statement "As a just judge, God will punish them both now and in eternity," Calvinism wrongly makes God responsible for suffering and death, which are evil, when there is no evil in God.
It also accuses God of consigning men to eternal punishment in Hell when it is men who choose to reject God's love and intimate union which Him, which God freely offers to all of mankind, but instead, choose eternal separation from God (which is the second death) and whatever experience Hell turns out to be. Man CHOOSES eternal death. God does not inflict it upon them because he’s so angry with man whom He loves so much that HE became a man in order to die and rise again and free mankind from the wages of sin.
Ro 1:18-21 Tells us that those who reject God are without excuse because His attributes are easily discerned in the creation. Their choice to reject God’s mercy and love results in them receiving, by their own choice, what Satan has to offer which is eternal torment. It is the wrath of God by which He punishes Satan and his angels in which the one who rejects God’s love chooses to participate.
Eph 5:1-6 Contrasts the works of righteousness of those who imitate Christ and the works of unrighteousness of those who imitate Satan. By their choice, they get to join Satan and experience with Satan the wrath of God poured out on the devil.
Heb 8:26b-28 “… now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.”
By this we are told that Christ has “put away sin.” There is no longer any reason for man to experience eternal death. It is gotten only by rejecting God’s gift of eternal life. At the judgment, those who chose to follow Christ will receive eternal life while those who refused to imitate Christ will be bereft of eternal life. (Mat 25:31-46)
Gal 3:10 “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the things written in the book of the law.” is part of the teaching that the Law was never intended to be a means to salvation. That the Heidelberg Catechism would include such confusion in its apologetic reveals a severely deficient understanding of scripture in general and specifically of the meaning of “salvation”.
Sin is not the equivalent of a crime against God. The catechism assumes that sin is a criminal offense that, by necessity, must be punished. It is an artifact of the pagan, Greek view of jurisprudence that the Western Church erroneously applied to the understanding of God’s justice.
This view suffers from at least two deficiencies.
(1) It assumes that sin is a criminal offense against God. It is not. To sin literally means, “to miss the mark.” That is not a crime; it is a shortcoming that is correctable through practice. And, if one chooses not to attempt to attain to the “to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”, as Ro 8:29 and Eph 4:13 tells us is God’s purpose for mankind, then he will surely never hit the mark.
(2) It assumes that God, through the necessity of divine justice, must inflict a punishment for the alleged criminal offense. But it falls to consider that God being under necessity makes the necessity a higher power than God.
It also fails to understand that man is subject to sin because of the deceit of Satan and, therefore, it is Satan who is the guilty party, not man.
Sin is to "Fall short of the glory of God." (Rom 3:23) That is, to have failed to attain to the will of God that man is to be "in His image and likeness" (Gen 1:26-27). Sin is the failure of man to attain to the moral perfection and immortality (in God's image and likeness) as created by God to do.
And that statement, again, makes God the creator of all human affliction and death.
The statement also reveals the absurd notion that man has need to be saved FROM GOD! It is no wonder that people who are told this "gospel" want nothing to do with such a vengeful, spiteful god that afflicts people with disease and famine and even death and then sends them to hell to be tortured by fire if ever they offend its "dignity and justice."
This is certainly not the merciful God who is love revealed in scripture who "so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son that whoever would believe in Him would have eternal life." (Jhn 3:16) and not suffer the consequence of sin (not God's angry, vengeful response to sin) which is death.
Heb 10:26-31 includes the entire message of that passage. (One is liable to do damage to the scriptures by taking out a snippet to support his thesis rather than considering the whole thought expressed by the writer of the passage.)
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
This passage speaks of those who not only reject the grace of God, but who openly despise it and blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. They are those who have chosen to align their fate with the devil and his angels (“the adversaries”) and they will be given the eternal death, which is the wage of their sin, even though they were freely offered eternal life in Christ Jesus.
(Continued below)
How unfortunate.
The idea the "god is terribly angry" makes God less than God.
It assumes:
(1) That God was unaware that man would sin.
(2) That sin is an offense against God's dignity.
(3) That God is insecure to the point that He is offended when someone doesn't show Him proper respect.
(4) That God is kike men who get angry when they don't get their way.
That's a very petty little god. (Sounds more like Kim Jong-un than the God of scripture)
By the statement "As a just judge, God will punish them both now and in eternity," Calvinism wrongly makes God responsible for suffering and death, which are evil, when there is no evil in God.
It also accuses God of consigning men to eternal punishment in Hell when it is men who choose to reject God's love and intimate union which Him, which God freely offers to all of mankind, but instead, choose eternal separation from God (which is the second death) and whatever experience Hell turns out to be. Man CHOOSES eternal death. God does not inflict it upon them because he’s so angry with man whom He loves so much that HE became a man in order to die and rise again and free mankind from the wages of sin.
Ro 1:18-21 Tells us that those who reject God are without excuse because His attributes are easily discerned in the creation. Their choice to reject God’s mercy and love results in them receiving, by their own choice, what Satan has to offer which is eternal torment. It is the wrath of God by which He punishes Satan and his angels in which the one who rejects God’s love chooses to participate.
Eph 5:1-6 Contrasts the works of righteousness of those who imitate Christ and the works of unrighteousness of those who imitate Satan. By their choice, they get to join Satan and experience with Satan the wrath of God poured out on the devil.
Heb 8:26b-28 “… now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.”
By this we are told that Christ has “put away sin.” There is no longer any reason for man to experience eternal death. It is gotten only by rejecting God’s gift of eternal life. At the judgment, those who chose to follow Christ will receive eternal life while those who refused to imitate Christ will be bereft of eternal life. (Mat 25:31-46)
Gal 3:10 “Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the things written in the book of the law.” is part of the teaching that the Law was never intended to be a means to salvation. That the Heidelberg Catechism would include such confusion in its apologetic reveals a severely deficient understanding of scripture in general and specifically of the meaning of “salvation”.
The statement, "God’s justice demands that sin, committed against his supreme majesty, be punished with the supreme penalty— eternal punishment of body and soul." reveals more confusion.
Sin is not the equivalent of a crime against God. The catechism assumes that sin is a criminal offense that, by necessity, must be punished. It is an artifact of the pagan, Greek view of jurisprudence that the Western Church erroneously applied to the understanding of God’s justice.
This view suffers from at least two deficiencies.
(1) It assumes that sin is a criminal offense against God. It is not. To sin literally means, “to miss the mark.” That is not a crime; it is a shortcoming that is correctable through practice. And, if one chooses not to attempt to attain to the “to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”, as Ro 8:29 and Eph 4:13 tells us is God’s purpose for mankind, then he will surely never hit the mark.
(2) It assumes that God, through the necessity of divine justice, must inflict a punishment for the alleged criminal offense. But it falls to consider that God being under necessity makes the necessity a higher power than God.
It also fails to understand that man is subject to sin because of the deceit of Satan and, therefore, it is Satan who is the guilty party, not man.
Sin is to "Fall short of the glory of God." (Rom 3:23) That is, to have failed to attain to the will of God that man is to be "in His image and likeness" (Gen 1:26-27). Sin is the failure of man to attain to the moral perfection and immortality (in God's image and likeness) as created by God to do.
And that statement, again, makes God the creator of all human affliction and death.
The statement also reveals the absurd notion that man has need to be saved FROM GOD! It is no wonder that people who are told this "gospel" want nothing to do with such a vengeful, spiteful god that afflicts people with disease and famine and even death and then sends them to hell to be tortured by fire if ever they offend its "dignity and justice."
This is certainly not the merciful God who is love revealed in scripture who "so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son that whoever would believe in Him would have eternal life." (Jhn 3:16) and not suffer the consequence of sin (not God's angry, vengeful response to sin) which is death.
Heb 10:26-31 includes the entire message of that passage. (One is liable to do damage to the scriptures by taking out a snippet to support his thesis rather than considering the whole thought expressed by the writer of the passage.)
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
This passage speaks of those who not only reject the grace of God, but who openly despise it and blaspheme against the Holy Spirit. They are those who have chosen to align their fate with the devil and his angels (“the adversaries”) and they will be given the eternal death, which is the wage of their sin, even though they were freely offered eternal life in Christ Jesus.
(Continued below)
Jim Parker
Member
This Q&A begs the question, “Saved from what?”
Jesus’ death and resurrection was not to save man from God who was angry with all mankind.
Jesus death and resurrection destroyed the power which death held over man. Jesus abolished death and, therefore, all of mankind is saved from death.
2 Tim 1:8-10 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
But there is yet a judgment to come for all of mankind when God will “will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.” (Ro 6:2-10)
That passage clearly states that (1) everyone’s eternal station (eternal life or eternal 2nd death) will be based on their works and (2) those works are the result of each person’s personal choice. (SEEK immortality vs. OBEY unrighteousness)
The Q&A is based on the false assumption that “being saved” refers to being saved from God’s wrath. But the enemy of God is not the sinning man; it is death which, by His passion and resurrection Jesus destroyed. (1Cor 15:26; 51-57)
Rom 6:23 "... the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Sin results in death.
And death is not God's punishment for the crime of insulting His holy dignity. It is what happens when someone separates himself from the only entity who has life in his essence, from the One who IS life.
God's gift is the eternal life which was, from the beginning, what God created man to attain as attested to by the fact that, when man was created, he had communion with God (Gen 2 and 3) and had free access to the "tree of life."
Salvation is not being delivered from the wrath of an angry God who is intent on torturing all sinners in hell forever.
Salvation is being freed from death and corruption by Jesus' defeat of death and sin, and being conformed to God’s original purpose in man that he acquires the same moral perfection as God (Eph 1:3-4; Mat 5:48) and the immortality and incorruption that is essential to God.
Anyway, that's my opinion. (See disclaimer)
iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)
DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.
Jim Parker
Member
Nathan
Member
I'm not sure you meant this like it reads; but this is very close to, and could be interpreted as - eternal life is earned by works of man, rather than a gift because of the work of God.
Jim Parker
Member
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
he who does not obey the Son shall not see life,
but the wrath of God rests upon him.
and John 5:28-29 (NKJV)
… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth
—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Paul said: Ro 6:2-10 (NKJV)
(God) will render to each one according to his deeds;
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness
—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
I say what those verses say: Eternal life is not "earned" but no one will be given eternal life who refuses to obey the Lord and who continues in sin.
By His death and resurrection, Jesus gave mankind immortality. (1Cor 15:52ff)
"Immortality" is not the same as "eternal life."
Because Jesus is life, (John 1:4) "eternal life" is the state of being "in Christ Jesus." (Rom 6:23)
Those who are not 'In Christ", by definition, do not have eternal life.
"Believing" includes acting like you believe which means "obeying". Obeying requires "doing" and "doing" means doing the good works for which you were created. (Eph 2:10)
Just believing that Jesus is who he says he is won't get you eternal life. All the demons know exactly who Jesus is and it won't do any of them a bit of good because they don't obey him.
A comment in the introduction to 2 Peter in the Orthodox Study Bible says: “The church had been infiltrated by Gnostic-sounding, antinomian (Lit., “against the law”) teachers, who taught that faith saves apart from repentance, works or virtue.” That same antinomian teaching still infects the minds of believers today.
Heb 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)
DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.
Here's what Jesus said:
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
he who does not obey the Son shall not see life,
but the wrath of God rests upon him.
and John 5:28-29 (NKJV)
… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth
—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Paul said: Ro 6:2-10 (NKJV)
(God) will render to each one according to his deeds;
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness
—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
I say what those verses say: Eternal life is not "earned" but no one will be given eternal life who refuses to obey the Lord and who continues in sin.
By His death and resurrection, Jesus gave mankind immortality. (1Cor 15:52ff)
"Immortality" is not the same as "eternal life."
Because Jesus is life, (John 1:4) "eternal life" is the state of being "in Christ Jesus." (Rom 6:23)
Those who are not 'In Christ", by definition, do not have eternal life.
"Believing" includes acting like you believe which means "obeying". Obeying requires "doing" and "doing" means doing the good works for which you were created. (Eph 2:10)
Just believing that Jesus is who he says he is won't get you eternal life. All the demons know exactly who Jesus is and it won't do any of them a bit of good because they don't obey him.
A comment in the introduction to 2 Peter in the Orthodox Study Bible says: “The church had been infiltrated by Gnostic-sounding, antinomian (Lit., “against the law”) teachers, who taught that faith saves apart from repentance, works or virtue.” That same antinomian teaching still infects the minds of believers today.
Heb 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.
iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)
DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.
I was thinking along the lines of our unworthiness and how we don't deserve salvation or anything good for that matter.
“There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit;
The poison of asps is under their lips;
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.
Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Destruction and misery are in their ways;
And the way of peace they have not known.
There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Romans 3:10-18 NKJV
Nathan
Member
Jim Parker
Member
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
It is God's will that every last human being be saved (2 Pete 3:9) and God has done everything necessary for that to happen. In God's love for all mankind, all that is necessary for everyone to have eternal life is to believe (which includes acting like he believes) and accept the gift.
Eternal life being a "free gift" doesn't mean we can just keep on doing whatever we were doing before being born again. We are told that a person is enslaved to whoever/whatever he he yields himself to obey.
Rom 6:16-23
Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification.
When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But then what return did you get from the things of which you are now ashamed? The end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
We are not to allow ourselves to become enslaved again to the demands of the flesh which is sin. We are to imitate Christ.
Rom 13:13-14 let us conduct ourselves becomingly as in the day, not in reveling and drunkenness, not in debauchery and licentiousness, not in quarreling and jealousy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.
Doing these things STILL doesn't mean we deserve eternal life because "we've been good." (As if God were Santa Clause rewarding good little boys and girls with lots of toys.)
But no one who is impure or defiled can be united to Christ as His bride. THEREFORE, in faith, we "press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus." (Phl 3:14) knowing that "He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." (Heb 11:6)
Eph 5:1-5
Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.
But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Once a person is determined to follow Christ with all his heart, mind and strength, (Deut 6:5) then he is living within God's will and has begun the journey in which he is "predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son." (Ro 8:28)
Rev 2:10b-11 Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. ... He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.
iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)
DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.
It's not about what we deserve; it's about whom we love and serve.
It is God's will that every last human being be saved (2 Pete 3:9) and God has done everything necessary for that to happen. In God's love for all mankind, all that is necessary for everyone to have eternal life is to believe (which includes acting like he believes) and accept the gift.
Eternal life being a "free gift" doesn't mean we can just keep on doing whatever we were doing before being born again. We are told that a person is enslaved to whoever/whatever he he yields himself to obey.
Rom 6:16-23
Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification.
When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But then what return did you get from the things of which you are now ashamed? The end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
We are not to allow ourselves to become enslaved again to the demands of the flesh which is sin. We are to imitate Christ.
Rom 13:13-14 let us conduct ourselves becomingly as in the day, not in reveling and drunkenness, not in debauchery and licentiousness, not in quarreling and jealousy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires.
Doing these things STILL doesn't mean we deserve eternal life because "we've been good." (As if God were Santa Clause rewarding good little boys and girls with lots of toys.)
But no one who is impure or defiled can be united to Christ as His bride. THEREFORE, in faith, we "press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus." (Phl 3:14) knowing that "He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." (Heb 11:6)
Eph 5:1-5
Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.
But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Once a person is determined to follow Christ with all his heart, mind and strength, (Deut 6:5) then he is living within God's will and has begun the journey in which he is "predestined to be conformed to the image of God's Son." (Ro 8:28)
Rev 2:10b-11 Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. ... He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.
iakov the fool
(beaucoup dien cai dau)
DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.
That was my point.
Jim Parker
Member
Yes! Those horrible theologian people who make it their life's work to study and expound the scriptures and upset all the dilettantes and dabblers who are much more capable than they because they "have the Holy Spirit" which, as everyone knows, no theologian could possible have.
And yes, I was being sarcastic.
It is an example of arrogance on the part of those who despise the work of those who dedicate their lives to the study of scripture along with the original languages and culture in which the scriptures arose. It is arrogant to assume that one is specially anointed with wisdom and understanding by the Holy Spirit and that others, who devote their lives to that same study, because they have Th.D. after their names, do not have any such anointing.
And from some ( not all ) of those same "Holy Spirit led," self-appointed, Bible experts comes some of the most absurd, babbling nonsense. It was just such a self decllared ignorant person who, claiming to be the sole possessor of the "Spirit of prophesy" founded the 7th Day Adventist church from which spun off the Watchtower Society Bible and tract society of Jehovah's Witnesses which was founded by another fraud who had absolutely no theological training.
One wonders how many of the "Spirit led" part-time, unschooled, theologian despising, Bible experts have run across the verse that says, "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you." (Mat 7:1-2)
But, you are also correct in that some very highly educated, Th.D. theologians have also come out with utter garbage and have influenced, no, "contaminated" and "infected" large sections of the Church with their errors.
Just sayin': let's try to avoid painting with too broad a brush, eh?
iakov the fool
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atpollard
Member
This thread was originally CREATED because people kept posting statements like yours in other discussions, but never really offering anything substantive to back up their bold positions. I wanted to hear what evidence existed for BOTH Arminianism and Calvinism being wrong, without crapping all over any other threads. So far, only one real taker who claims that neither properly addresses the issue of "Paul's thorn in the flesh, a messenger from Satan".
Everyone else has preferred to weigh in with either "one side is right" or just present unsupported claims that "both sides are wrong" without any real examples of how or why. If you think you can show where both Calvinism and Arminianism are wrong on any of the points presented in the OP (which is just a summary of what the two views actually believe), I would love to see it.