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Can Christian faith be substantiated without works?

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unred typo said:
LOL. How humble. What can you do for God??? He doesn’t need your steenking works, Gabby.

Hey Typo,
I am a Bible-believing, Spirit-filled child of God, bought with the blood of Jesus Christ. He thought I was worth dying for.
Out of one side of your mouth you shout "OBEY" out of the other you call my obedience steenking works"?

Is this the work that you are offering up to my Lord and Saviour today?

*edit* to add Verse:
Isa 6:8 ¶ Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here [am] I; send me.
 
tblaine74 said:
Can Christian faith be substantiated without works?

2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

When the believer becomes a Christian, filled with the Spirit, It is He who does the works through us. We are simply His vessel.

In the passage about the judgements of nations where The Lord speaks of the righteous, the righteous have been serving Him without being aware that they had done so.

Mat 25:37-39 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

I like the illustration that Mutz gave earlier, about the vine and the branches. Those who are the righteousness of Christ bear the fruit of the Spirit. It comes naturally. He saves us, He begins a work in our own lives, and He uses us to reach out to others to bring them to the Cross.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

On the other hand: :biggrin
There is the story of the thief on the cross, and many testimonies of those who receive Christ on their death bed.
 
quote by Gabbylittleangel:
Hey Typo,
I am a Bible-believing, Spirit-filled child of God, bought with the blood of Jesus Christ. He thought I was worth dying for.
Out of one side of your mouth you shout "OBEY" out of the other you call my obedience steenking works"?

That’s right. He loved all mankind while we were yet sinners, and he still doesn’t ‘need’ our good works. He accepts our works because he loves us, not because he doesn‘t have enough angels to maintain law and order in the world or to feed the poor. Your works are like that chunk of greasy clay that a child makes his mother for mother’s day with the hair and dirt stuck on the bottom with the little heart and the word ‘mom’ crudely carved in it with a stick. He doesn’t need your works or your obedience done in love and faith, he accepts them in the spirit they are done in. Do you think you can do works and demand payment of eternal life for what you have done? Not hardly. Eternal life will not be given to those who think they can demand it in payment for works done. If that is your attitude, you missed the point. ( I don’t mean ‘you’ personally, btw. I am using it generally. )


quote by Gabbylittleangel:
Is this the work that you are offering up to my Lord and Saviour today?

I believe it is the word he gave me to write to you, yes. If it sounds too harsh for your tender ears, I guess he picked the wrong one to say it. :wink:


quote by Gabbylittleangel:
*edit* to add Verse:
Isa 6:8 ¶ Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here [am] I; send me.
Did God send you here to teach or did he send you here to learn? Does the Lord send us? Sure. He also commands us to obey and he says that IF we obey, walk in love and repent when we sin, he will reward us with eternal life that was bought and paid for by the blood of his son.
 
Gabbylittleangel said:
When the believer becomes a Christian, filled with the Spirit, It is He who does the works through us. We are simply His vessel.

Gabby,

I did not start this thread out of a desire to debate someone. I started it so I could learn something. With Josh’s help, I believe I have. Perhaps you should reflect on why you have posted here. If you honestly believe that your comment, noted above, addresses the focus of exchange to this point, then I suggest you reread the posts in this thread, as you have yet to understand. You are casually referring to metaphysical concepts of which I doubt you will, in any satisfactory way, be able to demonstrate. I believe your statement is true, but of what use is it here, or anywhere for that matter? I could have stated at any point that God is the cause of everything. Though I believe it to be true, there is little I can do with it in attempting to understand what has been discussed here.
 
quote by cybershark5886:
Alright Tim, I'm finally getting around to this. I'll try to break it down piece by piece and show the general idea behind this:

God says "Because of your faith I will impute the perfect righteousness of my only beloved Son on your account that you may be saved and as white as snow that you may dwell with me"

First of all,
God says


Lets look at what else God has said.

"Be Holy for I am Holy" (1 Peter 1:16; Leviticus 11:44, 19:2).

Why? "Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God" (Hebrews 12:14-15).

God also said, "I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless" (Genesis 17:1). And Jesus said, "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (Matthew 5:48).

How? "Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus" (Phillipians 3:12-15).

And what did Paul say about attaining this perfection and righteousness just prior to that? And this is a key verse which actually answers almost all parts of that composite teaching I gave, it's more explicit than I remembered, "More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith" (Phillipians 3:8-9).

The object of his faith is what has changed. Paul once trusted in the works of the law. What are the works of the law? He lists them in the dung list: Circumcision, Israelite nationality, Being a Benjaminite, a Hebrew of the Hebrews, a Pharisee in doctrine and ceremonial works, a zealot in persecuting infidels, and having kept the laws perfectly by the letter. All those things were tossed away for the excellency of knowing the faith of Christ, the high calling of God, in the following of the way of the cross.

What is meant by this faith of Christ? It is trusting the taking up of our cross daily and setting aside our earthly gains to sacrificially give to others, in love and faith, that God will supply our needs as we supply the needs of others and that it is right to put others first and not seek for glory and rewards on earth.

The way you say it here is so esoteric that I can’t even relate to your words. It’s as if they are hollow words devoid of meaning. I’m not blaming you for this but making an observation here. They’re not real to me:

quote by cybershark5886:
It is something given only through Christ and in Christ, and it is not our righteousness but God's righteousness given to us on the basis that we have faith. And what else did Jesus say about pursuing God's righteousness? "But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness" (Matthew 6:33).

It is clear that the only way we can be holy, and blameless, and perfect, and righteous is through Christ, and not coming from ourselves but through God on the basis of faith.

This also defines the nature of our salvation, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God " (Ephesians 2:8). The Greek makes it clear that it is talking about salvation as not being of ourselves, and we see also that we obtain that only as a gift "by grace" on the basis of faith, "through faith". Thus that also covers my note I interrupted with where I said about it all being grace, that God didn't have to do it.

Because of your faith I will impute the perfect righteousness of my only beloved Son on your account that you may be saved

You are not explaining Paul’s words and putting his religious terms into understandable examples. Instead, you’re driving it further from reality by making ‘faith’ sound like a menu item served on a plate or something that could be tied with a bow. You’re removing it away from it’s true definition, which is belief in the message that Jesus taught and trust in the way that he has shown us to live.

quote by cybershark5886:
I actually covered a bit of this above. How righteousness is on the basis of faith and it comes to us through Christ, that we may be saved "not of ourselves" but as "the gift of God".

The righteousness that we ‘get’ from Christ is the righteousness that we attain by walking in the light, according to the Spirit leading us to do the right things in the right attitude. The Spirit cleanses us from unrighteousness when we confess and forsake our sin daily. Since we are then clean from sin, we have this righteousness from God, not of ourselves, lest any man should boast.

The real problem is not the pride of man wanting to take credit for being good enough to attain salvation, but the laziness of man not wanting to do good works helping his neighbor, and the greed of man not wanting to give of his wealth, and the lust of man wanting to get at his neighbor’s wife. That’s why the true gospel is rejected and the gospel-lite is preferred. No works are required for salvation. They are an add on bonus we ‘give’ to God. Lucky God. He gets us and some ‘lovely parting gifts’ for his trouble of sending his son to save mankind.



quote by cybershark5886:
Other things which speak of this are:

"What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith" (Romans 9:30).

"But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption" (1 Corinthians 1:30). Christ becomes to us righteousness, sanctification (holiness), and redemption (salvation), which is the idea behind imputation.

Good, Josh. I think you tossed a few bones in every direction. I forget. Are you a minister or leader in a church? Most of them are pretty good politicians. Everyone thinks they’re in agreement with them but no one can pin them down to just one view. Give them something really vague to say, and they’ll stand firmly on it.



quote by cybershark5886:
"For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH" (Romans 1:17). The one who lives righteous cannot be apart from faith.

"But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" (Romans 10:6-9). This is saying that we need not ask who will (or "how can I?") obtain righteousness (aka get to Christ - which here seems synonymous with obtaining righteousness and salvation - by "bringing him down" or "up"), but rather believe in the "word of faith" (the word & news that says Christ will save us on the simple & amazing basis of faith alone), and confess Jesus as Lord. And as a result we will experience the "righteousness based on faith".

I could go on and on.

I can't. That’s all I have to add here. The rest is more of the same, I'm quite disappointed.
 
vic C. said:
You really need to humble yourself before your brothers and sisters in Christ and before the Lord Himself. You just fell into the very same self righteous trap as the Pharisees. You probably didn't even realize it. :-?
It seems strange to me that any suggestion that we play some kind of a role in our ultimate justification is often met by this kind of response. Paul does not shy away from such claims. Paul is not embarrassed about making claims about the merit of his apostolic work will count to his benefit on the day of judgement. From Phillipians 2:

14Do everything without complaining or arguing, 15so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe 16as you hold out the word of life - in order that I may boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor for nothing.

Let's be clear to avoid yet further misrepresentation: Paul also qualifies such statements to the effect that it is the Spirit that inspires and energizes such work.
 
tblaine74 said:
Gabbylittleangel said:
When the believer becomes a Christian, filled with the Spirit, It is He who does the works through us. We are simply His vessel.
Gabby,

I did not start this thread out of a desire to debate someone. I started it so I could learn something. With Josh’s help, I believe I have. Perhaps you should reflect on why you have posted here. If you honestly believe that your comment, noted above, addresses the focus of exchange to this point, then I suggest you reread the posts in this thread, as you have yet to understand. You are casually referring to metaphysical concepts of which I doubt you will, in any satisfactory way, be able to demonstrate. I believe your statement is true, but of what use is it here, or anywhere for that matter? I could have stated at any point that God is the cause of everything. Though I believe it to be true, there is little I can do with it in attempting to understand what has been discussed here.
Hi Tim, faith is often demonstrated by actions. In this case, the action was for her and I (yes, I... ) to respond to some comments made that we consider to be unscriptural and offensive to our Lord and His Word. I am sorry we have disrupted the thread, but I am not sorry for defending what we believe to be Gospel truths.

How' about this; I will be more than happy to clean up the thread. Just PM me so we may discuss what should and shouldn't stay.

Peace and God bless.

Sidenotes... Drew and unred, I have no further comments concerning our differences here.

Unred, this is the last time we will ask that you curb your sarcasm. :-?

Josh, I commend you for the way you expressed yourself and clarified what it is you believe. I apologize to you to the derailment. When you've been here as long as I, sometimes it's so hard not to say anything. I've been swallowing my tongue for a while now... unfortunately I let loose in this thread. :oops:
 
Unred,

I don't appreciate in the least your treatment of my posts. Forgive me if I take joy in the great and amazing hope and realities which surpass understanding of what our faith is rooted in and will culminate in (the object of our faith and hope). Do my words sound esoteric to you, or is it the echo of words anticipating that great reality in Christ, the assurance of those things for which I hope, and the delight in evidence of things I do not yet see (yet will see and greatly long to see)? You don't have to lecture me on works, you know that I affirm works, and the fear of the lord, and that perseverance is a must for salvation, etc. But please don't step on my words when I talk of what our hope and faith is rooted in. When this world is over and gone I will take more solace in that my faith was in the person of Christ than how many works I commited because of that faith. Faith has substance in Christ, and you cannot take away from that. There my hope stands, and there it will remain.

~Josh
 
And Unred, I am still planning to get to your post to me a page or so back, I've just been busy. I hope you understand that. And for the record the Bible when it talks of things beyond this life it shows us our future hope, but to us now is utterly impractical, only something to look forward at this point, yet instead of calling it esoteric gibberish of no use to anyone - which might make someone "so heavenly minded they're no earthly good" - instead the Bible treats it as a motivation to endure the knitty-gritty-not-so-pretty (huh, I just made that up 8-) ) of everyday life today, and Paul uses it saying, "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us" (Romans 8:18). Could that sound esoteric, meaningless, and impractical? Sure, and infact lots of things Paul says could, and I'm more than sure it does to those who don't believe the Bible, yet to me it shows my hope and realities in Christ that are far more glorious than the present, in which we only "see through a mirror dimly". I'm waiting, just as creation eagerly waits, for the unveiling of the sons of God in Christ (vs. 19). Surely you must understand that.

And there is a consistant theme of doing good works and enduring suffering for the hope we have in us. Should I never indulge in speaking of that hope? There are greater realities in Christ that we have that we do not yet realize, but will be revealed in the end. I hope one day to understand all the great things God has done, but for now I rejoice in what I do know.

God Bless,

~Josh
 
I think that the Scriptures never teach that the righteousness of Christ is imputed or in any way ascribed to the believer. The believer is indeed deemed to be righteouns but it is not the righteousness of Christ, it is the righteousness of the defendant acquitted in the Hebrew lawcourt.

Who will be the judge in the lawcourt? It will be Christ:

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge (2 Timothy 4:1)

This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

We need to take the lawcourt metaphor seriously. Jesus is the judge. How can then Jesus see "himself" in the dock if his own (Christ's) righteousness is imputed to the defendent?

In the Hebrew lawcourt, the judge had 4 main responsibilities:

1. Follow the law
2. Show no impartiality
3. Make sure the rights of the poor and weak are upheld
4. Punish evil

If we are imputed Christ's righteousness, then these things are being said of us. How sensible is that. If you are going to appeal to a lawcourt scheme and talk about imputed righteousness, then you need to be consistent. Jesus is the judge, he cannot also be the defendent. And you have to analyse what the righteousness of the judge actually consists of, in the Hebrew lawcourt, before you deploy the notion of imputation of righteousness.

The imputation model just does not seem to work - it backfires on itself when one actually analyzes the concept of the Hebrew lawcourt.

If time permits, I will comment on other Scriptures that are taken to connote imputation.
 
vic C. said:
In this case, the action was for her and I (yes, I... ) to respond to some comments made that we consider to be unscriptural and offensive to our Lord and His Word. I am sorry we have disrupted the thread, but I am not sorry for defending what we believe to be Gospel truths.

Vic,

I don’t believe the thread has been disrupted. You and Gabby are welcome to respond as you please. Though, I think responses should not be expected to go unaswered.
 
Tim,

Just as a memo: I'm planning on sending you a PM later. I'm glad you were able to get some answers here. But like the old saying: "don't take my word for it", investigate the word of God yourself through diligent study.

God Bless,

~Josh
 
Drew said:
If we are imputed Christ's righteousness, then these things are being said of us. How sensible is that. If you are going to appeal to a lawcourt scheme and talk about imputed righteousness, then you need to be consistent. Jesus is the judge, he cannot also be the defendent. And you have to analyse what the righteousness of the judge actually consists of, in the Hebrew lawcourt, before you deploy the notion of imputation of righteousness.

Drew,

I understood Josh to mean that Christ’s righteousness was imputed as something of an absolution upon receipt of our judgment.

Tim
 
tblaine74 said:
Drew,

I understood Josh to mean that Christ’s righteousness was imputed as something of an absolution upon receipt of our judgment.

Tim
Fair enough. If that is what Josh is claiming - and I admit I only read one or two of the recent posts, then I indeed agree. We are indeed "imputed" righteousness in the sense of "absolution" (if I understand this word properly). What we are not imputed is Christ's own righteousness. I am aware that probably most in the reformed tradition do believe that Christ's own righteousness is imputed to us. Nevertheless, I do not think it is scriptural.
 
cybershark5886 said:
"But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" (Romans 10:6-9). This is saying that we need not ask who will (or "how can I?") obtain righteousness (aka get to Christ - which here seems synonymous with obtaining righteousness and salvation - by "bringing him down" or "up"), but rather believe in the "word of faith" (the word & news that says Christ will save us on the simple & amazing basis of faith alone), and confess Jesus as Lord. And as a result we will experience the "righteousness based on faith".
I do not share your interpretation of this material from Romans 10. As you doubtless know, Paul here is quoting something from Deuteronomy where, in respect to the matter of obedience, the writer writes:

Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

Does this ring any bells from Romans 2?

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts

I will simply assert (although I can easily support my claim) that the Deuteronomy 30 passage is a covenant renewal passage. And I will also simply assert that the death and resurrection of Jesus indeed constitutes covenant renewal.

So what is Paul really saying in this text from Romans 10? I think he wants us to understand that the promise of Deuteronomy 30 has been fulfilled. And what does that promise consist in? It consists in a promise of getting the law 'written our hearts' so that we may do it.

I think that Paul is saying that declarations to the effect that "Jesus is Lord" and believing that God raised Him from the dead function as proof that indeed this person has had the law written on their heart and they therefore will be able to do it and hence be justified as per Romans 2:7 and Romans 2:13.

And I do not mean that they will do Torah "as if by works". They will do the fundamental essence of Torah "as if by faith". But do it they must:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
 
Drew,

I can perhaps begin a new thread on imputation and see to what extent we all agree or disagree as to the Biblical definition of it and the extent of it. But I do not want to derail this thread further. And BTW the OT context of the verse does not necessarily determine the context used by a writer in the NT. Why? Well let's just say its not the first time a NT writer quoted a verse out of its original context (take Matthew for example). How they do not violate Scriptural principles is that often they see a pattern in a passage and can reapply it to a different situation (this would not allude so blatantly to achievement under the law that that OT passage you quoted did, since now we are not under law but under grace, and as Paul says in Galatians , "Christ lives within [us]") , and others I readily admit I don't know how they did it (though obviously I know they were led by the Spirit to quote it and write it down). Elsewhere in Romans Paul uses Psalm 19:1 which originally spoke of physical creation testifying to God's Glory and applied it to the Gospel to show that all men with their consciences have testimony of God, thus have no excuse. That idea was not wholely present in the original OT verse. I'm sure you see my point.

~Josh
 
cybershark5886 said:
Drew,

I can perhaps begin a new thread on imputation and see to what extent we all agree or disagree as to the Biblical definition of it and the extent of it.
I would be happy to participate in such a discussion.

cybershark5886 said:
And BTW the OT context of the verse does not necessarily determine the context used by a writer in the NT.
I agree with you 100 % on this.
 
cybershark5886 said:
Well let's just say its not the first time a NT writer quoted a verse out of its original context (take Matthew for example).

Are you referring to Matthew 16:19 in particular?
 
Are you referring to Matthew 16:19 in particular?

No I meant in general. Most of the quotes surrounding Jesus' birth are different than their original context. The son coming out of Egypt, and weeping in Ramah, etc. I believe it has something to do with pattern in biblical verses/themes that justifies this (but that's only a theory).
 
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