Bible Study Can Eternal Life exist in the Second Death?

[for_his_glory]

It's not eternal life as an eternal life with Christ, but that of an eternal torment in the sense of spending an eternal miserable life being tormented day and night. No, scripture never calls it an eternal life in the lake of fire, but the scenario would be that of the complete opposite of the eternal life with Christ. Existing is still life, whether it is a glorified life in Christ (New Jerusalem) or one of damnation and torment in the lake of fire as both are eternal.

One needs to define a word to understand what it means. Scripture never says what we will look like in the resurrection of life or damnation. Matthew 13:42 says there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth from those who are cast into the lake of fire so that one verse alone shows me they will have life, but no one knows what they will look like. The rest of these verses are pertinent to that of the resurrection of life both in the New Jerusalem and the lake of fire.

Exist: to have actual being or reality; to live
Existence: the fact or state of existing, living or occurring the manner of existing

Genesis 2:7 Dust + breath from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.
John 5:28,29; 1Corinthians 15:50-52; Matthew 13:40-42; Acts 24:15; Rev 20:12-15

One can not compare eternal life with the Father with eternal damnation in the lake of fire except that the two are opposite from each other. Those who are resurrected to be with the Lord will have an eternal life (existence) basking in Gods glory. Those who are cast in the lake of fire will not literally be consumed by an eternal literal fire as fire here means torment, destruction or as being destroyed or broken down like someone saying that we are going to destroy you and drag your name through the mud.

They are not literally destroyed, but brought down to a lower level that separates them from God forever. Those in the lake of fire will have an existence of weeping and gnashing of teeth for the destruction and torment they will face for eternity. Death means separation from God as their eternal destiny is the lake of fire. If death here meant not to exist anymore than what would be the purpose of the second death and being resurrected to stand in the great white throne judgment. Couldn't God just make them vanish as if they never existed in the first place!

We know flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God and many will be alive when Christ returns. Those who have physically died in Christ will be changed in a twinkling of an eye to meet Him in the air just as we who are physically alive will be gathered with them, but yet we do not know physically what we will look like for many will be only dust in the ground when they are resurrected to be with the Lord forever. Those who have physically died and have no part of the inheritance also will be only dust in the ground depending how long they have been asleep, but yet will be transformed and meet those who are alive to stand before God in His great white throne judgment and will be cast into the lake of fire. There existence will be an eternal life of torment being separated from God forever. Scripture also calls it outer darkness, Matthew22:13, and in my own minds eye I see it as not only being separated from God forever, but like looking through a window in all their torment seeing that God does exist and they will never be a part of His glory.

God gives us a description as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Chopper]

Wow Glory Girl. I don't know if you were around when there was a thread on this subject but there was a spiritual rodeo with lots folk being tossed around with their preconceptions.

The Scriptures speak of an everlasting life in the Lake of Fire and that's good enough for me....Brace yourself for a deluge of opinions.

 

[for_his_glory]

I hear ya Chopper, will see where it goes!!!

 

[Edward]

I thought about this before. Eternal torment in hell sorta technically means that they have eternal life...but they don't because what kind of life is that, being separated from God?! No life. So it's not true, lol...

 

[markathome]

Well the opposite of eternal life is eternal death aka 2nd death, the eternal life part has a book called the Book of Life so does the eternal death also have a book?

 

[for_his_glory]

Edward, it would be an eternity of unceasing torment and misery and yet not a life like we have now in this flesh body, but that of damnation. We who are in Christ will have new glorified bodies, but yet do not know what we will look like. It's the same with those who are cast into the lake of fire except they will not have glorified bodies as we have no clue what they will look like, but yet they will never taste that of the glory of God and stand in His presence.

 

[for_his_glory]

Well the opposite of eternal life is eternal death aka 2nd death, the eternal life part has a book called the Book of Life so does the eternal death also have a book?

can you elaborate more on that

 

[Eugene]

Well the opposite of eternal life is eternal death aka 2nd death, the eternal life part has a book called the Book of Life so does the eternal death also have a book?

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days (Jesus) did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Judgment is coming, and Jesus is the judge, (Joh 5:22) He has received His own throne in Rev 4:2, Gentile times is over
Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Rev_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Notice the difference in the description of the books above:
The book of life.
We might look at The Books as being those as the Books of Judgment; only the dead are subject to their purpose.

 

[markathome]

can you elaborate more on that

Eternal = No Beginning or End
God is Eternal
Life = Has a Beginning
Life Eternal = Has a Beginning but No End
Death Eternal = Has a Beginning but No End
Eternal Life or Life Eternal?
Eternal Death or Death Eternal?
Tree of Life gives Life Eternal Genesis 2:9 Genesis 3:22-24
Sin is not imputed when there is no Law. Romans 5:12-21

Adam had Life Eternal

Genesis 2:16–17 (KJV 1900)
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam lost his Life Eternal & replace it with Death Eternal Genesis 3:6-7
Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil resulting in Death Eternal
Tree of Life gives Life Eternal Genesis 3:22-24
Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil results in Death

Types & opposite
Book of Life, Good, Christ, God, Love, Light, Positive, Tree of Life
Sin
Book of Death, Evil, Anti-Christ, Satan, Hate, Dark, Negative, Tree of Death

 

[JLB]

It's not eternal life as an eternal life with Christ, but that of an eternal torment in the sense of spending an eternal miserable life being tormented day and night. No, scripture never calls it an eternal life in the lake of fire, but the scenario would be that of the complete opposite of the eternal life with Christ. Existing is still life, whether it is a glorified life in Christ (New Jerusalem) or one of damnation and torment in the lake of fire as both are eternal.

One needs to define a word to understand what it means. Scripture never says what we will look like in the resurrection of life or damnation. Matthew 13:42 says there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth from those who are cast into the lake of fire so that one verse alone shows me they will have life, but no one knows what they will look like. The rest of these verses are pertinent to that of the resurrection of life both in the New Jerusalem and the lake of fire.

Exist: to have actual being or reality; to live
Existence: the fact or state of existing, living or occurring the manner of existing

Genesis 2:7 Dust + breath from God = a living soul. When the flesh dies physically it returns back to the dust of the ground and our spirit is preserved with God for final judgment.
John 5:28,29; 1Corinthians 15:50-52; Matthew 13:40-42; Acts 24:15; Rev 20:12-15

One can not compare eternal life with the Father with eternal damnation in the lake of fire except that the two are opposite from each other. Those who are resurrected to be with the Lord will have an eternal life (existence) basking in Gods glory. Those who are cast in the lake of fire will not literally be consumed by an eternal literal fire as fire here means torment, destruction or as being destroyed or broken down like someone saying that we are going to destroy you and drag your name through the mud.

They are not literally destroyed, but brought down to a lower level that separates them from God forever. Those in the lake of fire will have an existence of weeping and gnashing of teeth for the destruction and torment they will face for eternity. Death means separation from God as their eternal destiny is the lake of fire. If death here meant not to exist anymore than what would be the purpose of the second death and being resurrected to stand in the great white throne judgment. Couldn't God just make them vanish as if they never existed in the first place!

We know flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of God and many will be alive when Christ returns. Those who have physically died in Christ will be changed in a twinkling of an eye to meet Him in the air just as we who are physically alive will be gathered with them, but yet we do not know physically what we will look like for many will be only dust in the ground when they are resurrected to be with the Lord forever. Those who have physically died and have no part of the inheritance also will be only dust in the ground depending how long they have been asleep, but yet will be transformed and meet those who are alive to stand before God in His great white throne judgment and will be cast into the lake of fire. There existence will be an eternal life of torment being separated from God forever. Scripture also calls it outer darkness, Matthew22:13, and in my own minds eye I see it as not only being separated from God forever, but like looking through a window in all their torment seeing that God does exist and they will never be a part of His glory.

God gives us a description as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Eternal Death.
Everlasting Destruction


Not good!

 

[Jim Parker]

"Can Eternal Life exist in the Second Death?"
After the resurrection, all mankind will be judged.
The two outcomes will be that some will have eternal life and some will have the second death.
The two are mutually exclusive.

 

[for_his_glory]

Eternal = No Beginning or End
God is Eternal
Life = Has a Beginning
Life Eternal = Has a Beginning but No End
Death Eternal = Has a Beginning but No End
Eternal Life or Life Eternal?
Eternal Death or Death Eternal?
Tree of Life gives Life Eternal Genesis 2:9 Genesis 3:22-24
Sin is not imputed when there is no Law. Romans 5:12-21

Adam had Life Eternal

Genesis 2:16–17 (KJV 1900)
16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam lost his Life Eternal & replace it with Death Eternal Genesis 3:6-7
Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil resulting in Death Eternal
Tree of Life gives Life Eternal Genesis 3:22-24
Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil results in Death

Types & opposite
Book of Life, Good, Christ, God, Love, Light, Positive, Tree of Life
Sin
Book of Death, Evil, Anti-Christ, Satan, Hate, Dark, Negative, Tree of Death

Ty and I agree

 

[for_his_glory]

This body/flesh dies and deteriorates as it turns back to dust while in the ground. The breath/spirit goes back to God who gave it, Ecc 12:7. The soul which makes up the conscious part of ones being is that of thought, action and emotion. The spiritual nature of man regarded as immortal and separable from the body at death and susceptible to happiness or misery in a future state.

Without the spirit/breath from God our soul would not be alive as spirit and soul are connected, Genesis 2:7. When we physically die our soul also dies as the breath goes back to God who gave it. 1Cor 15 speaks of the resurrection of the dead. We will not be raised from the grave in our old physical bodies, but will be changed into that likeness of Christ in all His glory

Death and hell (grave) are destroyed before the unrighteous are thrown into the lake of fire, Rev 20:13-15, as the sea, death and Hades gave up those who were asleep in the grave (righteous and unrighteous), 1Thess 4:13, to stand in judgment as we will either stand in Jesus judgment or the great white throne judgment.

Read Rev 20:13, 14 as it is death and hell thrown into the lake of fire that is the second death, not the unrighteous being the second death as while they were delivered up for judgment death and Hades was being thrown into the lake of fire. Death is now taken out before the torment of the unrighteous begins.

 

[netchaplain]

If this can add anything to the OP, both the saved and unsaved will resurrect with an indestructible body (Jhn 5:29). "Resurrection" has to do with a new, incorruptible (cannot decay) body. I think MAH has the closest comment to the issue, in that the unbelievers resurrect not unto eternal life but eternal death (opposite as mentioned).

 

[for_his_glory]

If this can add anything to the OP, both the saved and unsaved will resurrect with an indestructible body (Jhn 5:29). "Resurrection" has to do with a new, incorruptible (cannot decay) body. I think MAH has the closest comment to the issue, in that the unbelievers resurrect not unto eternal life but eternal death (opposite as mentioned).

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1Corinthians 15: 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
(Read 1Corinthians 15:35-54)

Nowhere in scripture does it say what we will look like (saint or sinner) other than those who are in Christ will be resurrect with a spiritual body as flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Our resurrected bodies will not need physical sustenance or depend on natural means of supporting life. No one knows what our spiritual bodies will look like other than we will be like Jesus as we will see Him as He is.
John 5:28; 1Corinthians 15:35-54

It would stand to reason that we will be raised with an incoruptable spiritual body and those who are cast into the lake of fire will first be raised with a corruptible spiritual body as scripture says all will hear the voice of Christ and raise from their graves some to be with Christ and those who are condemned to the lake of fire.

 

[netchaplain]

It would stand to reason that we will be raised with an incoruptable spiritual body and those who are cast into the lake of fire will first be raised with a corruptible spiritual body as scripture says all will hear the voice of Christ and raise from their graves some to be with Christ and those who are condemned to the lake of fire.

I see no reason to think the bodies of the lost who will be raised are the same ones they died with. I do not think a spiritual body means not physical but like Christ's resurrected body, which was physical and not just "spirit", for a spirit only "does not have flesh and bone as you see I have" (Luke 24:39). Our new body will "be fashioned like unto His glorious body" (Phil 3:21).

The "flesh and blood" in 1 Co 15:50 is a different type of flesh, etc. than that in Luke 24:39!

 

[for_his_glory]

I see no reason to think the bodies of the lost who will be raised are the same ones they died with. I do not think a spiritual body means not physical but like Christ's resurrected body, which was physical and not just "spirit", for a spirit only "does not have flesh and bone as you see I have" (Luke 24:39). Our new body will "be fashioned like unto His glorious body" (Phil 3:21).

The "flesh and blood" in 1 Co 15:50 is a different type of flesh, etc. than that in Luke 24:39!

Thank you for pointing the physical body as I left that out and should have put it in what I said. When we are changed we will be like Christ who has a spiritual physical glorified body.

 

[calvin]

Hello calvin here.

If death here meant not to exist anymore than what would be the purpose of the second death and being resurrected to stand in the great white throne judgment. Couldn't God just make them vanish as if they never existed in the first place!

I think you have covered the topic very well.
The purpose (I think)of raising some to face judgement as opposed to auto delete, is God's righteousness must and will be satisfied.
For those who are not of the household of God to just appear in a state of eternal damnation would be unjust.
Consider; at the great white throne judgement, not all are said to be condemned to the fire, but some (most?) are and those who are will know exactly why.
Something that I think has not been explored, is the personal nature of eternal damnation.

Image copied from http://helltruth.blogspot.com.au/2014/01/shall-have-their-part-in-lake-which.html
This picture suggests a communal type of end torment, however I believe just as the first death is personal, so will the second death be.
To finally see the glory of the Lord, and be shut out forever from His glory and left in a sort of solitary confinement with only memories of one's own evil deeds as company, might be descriptive of the lake of fire. From that estate, and knowing from what one is eternally barred would be torment eternal.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hello calvin here.
I think you have covered the topic very well.
The purpose (I think)of raising some to face judgement as opposed to auto delete, is God's righteousness must and will be satisfied.
For those who are not of the household of God to just appear in a state of eternal damnation would be unjust.
Consider; at the great white throne judgement, not all are said to be condemned to the fire, but some (most?) are and those who are will know exactly why.
Something that I think has not been explored, is the personal nature of eternal damnation.

Image copied from http://helltruth.blogspot.com.au/2014/01/shall-have-their-part-in-lake-which.html
This picture suggests a communal type of end torment, however I believe just as the first death is personal, so will the second death be.
To finally see the glory of the Lord, and be shut out forever from His glory and left in a sort of solitary confinement with only memories of one's own evil deeds as company, might be descriptive of the lake of fire. From that estate, and knowing from what one is eternally barred would be torment eternal.

No one could ever fathom what it will be like in the New Jerusalem or the lake of fire other than knowing one is a place of eternal glory and the other a place of eternal torment.