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Cessationism- have tongues and prophecy ceased, or are they still active?

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#1
This is split off from another thread due to being more on topic. Have miracles ceased when the canon of scripture was closed? Prophecy, Tongues, Word of Knowledge, Word of wisdom, have these gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased? Well this is a huge topic, but I believe we can all agree that the key scripture is 1 Corinthians 13:8-10. Well we can all have opinions on this passage, and I am sure we all do. However it is important to study as well what other theologians say. Wayne Grudem received his A.B. from Harvard, his honorary D.D. from Westminster Seminary, and his PhD. in New testament from Cambridge. So I think we can all agree he is definitely a modern day scholar. For my evidence against cessationism I wish to post a document to a section of his work. That we can all learn from and discuss freely. God Bless you.

This systematic theology reference by wayne grudem received nearly 5 stars on amazon with over 700 reviews.

Here you can view
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fdEaJ-JbQBEAVpPEmOhvHGsX69ut46YcGEEHbclDtFA/edit?usp=sharing
 
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#2
Wouldn't we be limiting God if we were emphatic that gifts of his sacred spirit would cease being granted unto those in his grace?
 
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#3
This is split off from another thread due to being more on topic. Have miracles ceased when the canon of scripture was closed?
I have always found that to be a less than weak argument. It requires that we conclude that the "close of the cannon" (an act of human beings) defines that which is "perfect."
Really? So would those perfect scriptures be the Greek NT? The KJV? (Requiring fluency in Late Middle English) The Aramaic version? Do I have to be fluent in English to experience this "perfection"?

AT 1 Cor 13:10 the word "perfect is the English rendering of the Greek word TELIOS.
Thayer's Lexicon defines that word at that usage as: the perfect state of all things, to be ushered in by the return of Christ from heaven, 1 Corinthians 13:10;

The notion that "TELIOS" here refers to the close of the canon or the event of the last writing of the last apostle is an obvious contrivance invented to appear to lend support to the (IMHO) completely false teaching that the gifts of the Holy Spirit (or, at least the so-called "sign" gifts) have been taken from the church.

an' that's my story an' I'm stickin' to it

iakov the fool
 

JohnDB

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#4
He makes a good case that only the Apostles we're the ones who performed miracles and speaking in tongues.

And where I disagree with his assertion that Revelations was written in 90AD instead of 68 it wasn't too important to his main points.

But he does make a good case that those prophesying and speaking in tongues today are full of baloney. But...I still disagree with it.
God does as He pleases...and where the time of signs and wonders has ceased He can and does perform miracles today.
But these "miracles" are hidden and out of sight. No one knows where, who, when, and why the next one will come.
 
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#5
He makes a good case that only the Apostles we're the ones who performed miracles and speaking in tongues.

And where I disagree with his assertion that Revelations was written in 90AD instead of 68 it wasn't too important to his main points.

But he does make a good case that those prophesying and speaking in tongues today are full of baloney. But...I still disagree with it.
God does as He pleases...and where the time of signs and wonders has ceased He can and does perform miracles today.
But these "miracles" are hidden and out of sight. No one knows where, who, when, and why the next one will come.
I didn't read that, can you quote what part says that tongues are fake, and only the apostles used miracles. Rather I read that He believe tongues to be active as well as other gifts until the second coming. Which according to him is the classic view. And that miracles and prophesy was both used in the church age.

here is a secondary reference that I am accurately describing him:
 
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#6
He makes a good case that only the Apostles we're the ones who performed miracles and speaking in tongues.

And where I disagree with his assertion that Revelations was written in 90AD instead of 68 it wasn't too important to his main points.

But he does make a good case that those prophesying and speaking in tongues today are full of baloney. But...I still disagree with it.
God does as He pleases...and where the time of signs and wonders has ceased He can and does perform miracles today.
But these "miracles" are hidden and out of sight. No one knows where, who, when, and why the next one will come.
I have always found that to be a less than weak argument. It requires that we conclude that the "close of the cannon" (an act of human beings) defines that which is "perfect."
Really? So would those perfect scriptures be the Greek NT? The KJV? (Requiring fluency in Late Middle English) The Aramaic version? Do I have to be fluent in English to experience this "perfection"?

AT 1 Cor 13:10 the word "perfect is the English rendering of the Greek word TELIOS.
Thayer's Lexicon defines that word at that usage as: the perfect state of all things, to be ushered in by the return of Christ from heaven, 1 Corinthians 13:10;

The notion that "TELIOS" here refers to the close of the canon or the event of the last writing of the last apostle is an obvious contrivance invented to appear to lend support to the (IMHO) completely false teaching that the gifts of the Holy Spirit (or, at least the so-called "sign" gifts) have been taken from the church.

an' that's my story an' I'm stickin' to it

iakov the fool
grudem believes "that which is perfect" is the second coming of Christ. And others have argued that the canon of scripture is not perfect because the seven thunders of revelation 10:4 are still sealed. Meaning that those things will one day be known, so the Bible is not complete.

Revelation 10:4New King James Version (NKJV)
4 Now when the seven thunders uttered their voices, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Seal up the things which the seven thunders uttered, and do not write them.”
 
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#7
He makes a good case that only the Apostles we're the ones who performed miracles and speaking in tongues.
That is false.
Act 6:8 And Stephen, (not an apostle) full of faith and power, did great wonders and signs among the people.
Act 21:8-10 On the next day we who were Paul’s companions departed and came to Caesarea, and entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him. Now this man had four virgin daughters who prophesied. (not apostles) And as we stayed many days, a certain prophet named Agabus (not an apostle) came down from Judea.
Act 13:1 Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets
Act 8:5-6 Then Philip (Not an apostle) went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

Re: speaking in tongues:
Act 10:44-46 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them (Gentiles, not apostles) speak with tongues and magnify God.
Act 19:5-6 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they (Gentiles, not apostles) spoke with tongues and prophesied.
lokjg
God does as He pleases...and where the time of signs and wonders has ceased He can and does perform miracles today.
So, Jesus has changes. He's not the same yesterday, today and forever?
But these "miracles" are hidden and out of sight. No one knows where, who, when, and why the next one will come.
Your personal lack of personal experience in the area of what are called "miracles" does not invalidate the miracles which others have experienced.

However, if a person does not believe that God does miracles any more then God will not do any miracles in that person's life.
Mat 13:58 Now He (Jesus) did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
Mat 17:19-20a Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?" So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief."

But for those who have faith that God can do "miracles":
Mat 9:22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour.
Mat 9:29 Then He touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith let it be to you.”
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Luk 17:19 And He said to him, “Arise, go your way. Your faith has made you well.”
Luk 18:42 Then Jesus said to him, “Receive your sight; your faith has made you well.”

The following is either true of false:
Mar 16:17-18 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.

True? or False?

iakov the fool
 
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#8
grudem believes "that which is perfect" is the second coming of Christ. And others have argued that the canon of scripture is not perfect because the seven thunders of revelation 10:4 are still sealed. Meaning that those things will one day be known, so the Bible is not complete.

Revelation 10:4New King James Version (NKJV)
4 Now when the seven thunders uttered their voices, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Seal up the things which the seven thunders uttered, and do not write them.”
I'd say that the restoration of heaven and earth (or the advent of the new heavens and the new earth) in which Christ reigns eternally is that which is perfect. (Essentially the 2nd coming)

7 thunders - hmmmmm - interesting.

iakov the fool
 
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#9
I am gonna try to see both sides of this.....
To say that tongues has ceased for some is true to the extent
That not all believers speak in tongues....
In the 1st century it was this way....
1 corintians 12:30
I will also say that imo with the fall of jerusalem in 70ad and the jews as a whole rejecting Christ
There was a diminishing of the Holy Spirit...after the apostles died and the gospel
Was taken to mainly gentiles....

Probably during the dark ages around 1000ad there was so much darkness in the church
That any gifts were difficult to see...although i am sure they existed to a smaller degree...

But with azuzu street and the resurgance of jewish believers back into the land, charismatic renewal of 70s and other revival movements.......it would be difficult to say that these gifts have ceased for all believers!!!!

To be 100% cesationist you would have to believe all gifts ceased.....that would include administration, helps, music teaching and preaching..gifts of mercy, counsel, Wisdom........these are all gifts of the HS

Also it is possible for grnerrations and times and seasons to experience diferent giftings....
As these gifts were not under the old covenant..at least tongues....
But it was prophesied in joel 2:28-32
For these gifts to appear
Also in isaiah 28:11
And repeated in 1 corinthians 14:21

Since the scriptures prophesied these gifts in the OT then there would have to be scriptures that
Say that these gifts would be taken away.....??????
 

JohnDB

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#10
That is false.
Act 6:8 And Stephen, (not an apostle) full of faith and power, did great wonders and signs among the people.
Act 21:8-10 On the next day we who were Paul’s companions departed and came to Caesarea, and entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him. Now this man had four virgin daughters who prophesied. (not apostles) And as we stayed many days, a certain prophet named Agabus (not an apostle) came down from Judea.
Act 13:1 Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets
Act 8:5-6 Then Philip (Not an apostle) went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them. And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

Re: speaking in tongues:
Act 10:44-46 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them (Gentiles, not apostles) speak with tongues and magnify God.
Act 19:5-6 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they (Gentiles, not apostles) spoke with tongues and prophesied.
lokjg

So, Jesus has changes. He's not the same yesterday, today and forever?

Your personal lack of personal experience in the area of what are called "miracles" does not invalidate the miracles which others have experienced.

However, if a person does not believe that God does miracles any more then God will not do any miracles in that person's life.
Mat 13:58 Now He (Jesus) did not do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
Mat 17:19-20a Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?" So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief."

But for those who have faith that God can do "miracles":
Mat 9:22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour.
Mat 9:29 Then He touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith let it be to you.”
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
Luk 17:19 And He said to him, “Arise, go your way. Your faith has made you well.”
Luk 18:42 Then Jesus said to him, “Receive your sight; your faith has made you well.”

The following is either true of false:
Mar 16:17-18 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.

True? or False?

iakov the fool
Actually I have spoken in tongues. It wasn't in church. So I do have personal experience with it. And the person I was speaking to understood me perfectly for the first time. I didn't know that I was and he was shocked that he understood everything I said.

But I just endorsed the paper by agreeing with his assessment, more accurately said that the Apostles and close friends performed miracles.
 
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#11
But he does make a good case that those prophesying and speaking in tongues today are full of baloney. But...I still disagree with it.
so you believe all gifts of the spirit are for today? It did not sound like that in this post, it sounded like a mixed cessationist reply. however if you are saying that some occasions of speaking in tongues is false, I would agree. There is a lot of false hype regarding some pentecostals, namely word faith among some other denominations.
 

JohnDB

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#12
so you believe all gifts of the spirit are for today? It did not sound like that in this post, it sounded like a mixed cessationist reply. however if you are saying that some occasions of speaking in tongues is false, I would agree. There is a lot of false hype regarding some pentecostals, namely word faith among some other denominations.
What I said was that the time of signs and wonders is over. That miracles performed by God are no longer available for public spectacle. The real ones that occur today are done by God for purposes of His own but not done for the public eye.
Many of the "speaking in tongues" occurrences in today's modern church makes no sense, is disconcerting to visitors, tends to drive people away. I have not witnessed anyone or personally known anyone healed from ailments like the people at a Benny Hinn service claim. The prophesies I've heard are always tidings of good things in the future like wealth and happiness and success instead of the standard form of bad news but surviving. (And none of it in pithy poetry)
On top of this many times the churches that these grand displays occur in are rife with shady dealings and politics behind the scenes. The truth is never said in public about even the most simple maintenance tasks or needs. Making their entire character questionable at best. The congregants also having issues with character tend to have blowups every few years as well.
(I have been involved with many Charismatic churches)

So I personally tend to avoid all Charismatic churches (coast to coast). When you get burned every time you suspect that something is going to burn you every time. We won't discuss the sheer volume of scandals and Congressional hearings that many Charismatic leaders have been involved with.
 
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#13
What I said was that the time of signs and wonders is over. That miracles performed by God are no longer available for public spectacle. The real ones that occur today are done by God for purposes of His own but not done for the public eye.
Many of the "speaking in tongues" occurrences in today's modern church makes no sense, is disconcerting to visitors, tends to drive people away. I have not witnessed anyone or personally known anyone healed from ailments like the people at a Benny Hinn service claim. The prophesies I've heard are always tidings of good things in the future like wealth and happiness and success instead of the standard form of bad news but surviving. (And none of it in pithy poetry)
On top of this many times the churches that these grand displays occur in are rife with shady dealings and politics behind the scenes. The truth is never said in public about even the most simple maintenance tasks or needs. Making their entire character questionable at best. The congregants also having issues with character tend to have blowups every few years as well.
(I have been involved with many Charismatic churches)

So I personally tend to avoid all Charismatic churches (coast to coast). When you get burned every time you suspect that something is going to burn you every time. We won't discuss the sheer volume of scandals and Congressional hearings that many Charismatic leaders have been involved with.
our church is charismatic but they don't allow for any gifts of the holy spirit in the service. A special afterglow is used for the gifts. (calvary chapel). This is unique among the pentecostal churches I have been to. I have been to three. Normally they are too emotional and touchy feely, and I don't like that. Or they ask for too much money. Our pastor doesn't use prophecy or such, only has one offering in the morning, low key.
We are not a very charismatic church. If anything we are on the low side of the spectrum. But I like the charisma that is there.
 
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#14
Actually I have spoken in tongues. It wasn't in church. So I do have personal experience with it. And the person I was speaking to understood me perfectly for the first time. I didn't know that I was and he was shocked that he understood everything I said.

But I just endorsed the paper by agreeing with his assessment, more accurately said that the Apostles and close friends performed miracles.
So did I totally misread your post????
I've done it before.....
 
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#15
What I said was that the time of signs and wonders is over. That miracles performed by God are no longer available for public spectacle. The real ones that occur today are done by God for purposes of His own but not done for the public eye.
Many of the "speaking in tongues" occurrences in today's modern church makes no sense, is disconcerting to visitors, tends to drive people away. I have not witnessed anyone or personally known anyone healed from ailments like the people at a Benny Hinn service claim. The prophesies I've heard are always tidings of good things in the future like wealth and happiness and success instead of the standard form of bad news but surviving. (And none of it in pithy poetry)
On top of this many times the churches that these grand displays occur in are rife with shady dealings and politics behind the scenes. The truth is never said in public about even the most simple maintenance tasks or needs. Making their entire character questionable at best. The congregants also having issues with character tend to have blowups every few years as well.
(I have been involved with many Charismatic churches)

So I personally tend to avoid all Charismatic churches (coast to coast). When you get burned every time you suspect that something is going to burn you every time. We won't discuss the sheer volume of scandals and Congressional hearings that many Charismatic leaders have been involved with.
I think I disagree that miracles are not done in the public eye. In a day an age of email, video chat, and instant messaging, our eyes are everywhere. If there are legitimate miracles, like I have posted, social media not unlike this forum, will relay the miracle to the public eye. Then again if I was healed I would not want to make a spectacle of it.
 
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#16
What I said was that the time of signs and wonders is over. That miracles performed by God are no longer available for public spectacle. The real ones that occur today are done by God for purposes of His own but not done for the public eye.
Many of the "speaking in tongues" occurrences in today's modern church makes no sense, is disconcerting to visitors, tends to drive people away. I have not witnessed anyone or personally known anyone healed from ailments like the people at a Benny Hinn service claim. The prophesies I've heard are always tidings of good things in the future like wealth and happiness and success instead of the standard form of bad news but surviving. (And none of it in pithy poetry)
On top of this many times the churches that these grand displays occur in are rife with shady dealings and politics behind the scenes. The truth is never said in public about even the most simple maintenance tasks or needs. Making their entire character questionable at best. The congregants also having issues with character tend to have blowups every few years as well.
(I have been involved with many Charismatic churches)

So I personally tend to avoid all Charismatic churches (coast to coast). When you get burned every time you suspect that something is going to burn you every time. We won't discuss the sheer volume of scandals and Congressional hearings that many Charismatic leaders have been involved with.
oh yeah I forgot to mention about my church, since it is lower on the charisma scale that it sees less miracles, I believe because of that. Miracles work on faith, and if you don't expect God to do miracles, He will meet your doubt with no miracle.
 
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#19
But they got rich,ugh
Because people were so desperate they needed to believe in frauds. And such frauds were so desperate to get rich that they invited that belief.
I think such fake pastors will be very surprised when they meet God.
 
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#20
Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.