Cessationism- have tongues and prophecy ceased, or are they still active?

Discussion in 'Theology' started by godsquadgeek, Oct 27, 2017.

  1. dirtfarmer

    dirtfarmer Member

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    hello eddif, dirtfarmer here

    Do you suppose that the "services" that were held in Paul's day were similar to the ones that are held today? How many "visitors" do you suppose they had in those days?
     
  2. eddif

    eddif Member

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    Let me go this way to answer.

    At a point in my life (after I repented, but before I accepted Jesus as Lord) I went to a country Presbyterian Church). I could almost literally see my life in the service.
    The hymns related to questions I had.
    The sermon cut me to the bone.
    The people I talked to were on my wave length.
    The scripture related to me.

    Was it a toungue talking Holy Ghost filled Pentecostal service? Why no.

    Was God active? Yes.

    Did I think it should be more Pentecostal?
    Regretfully yes. Did I see things suddenly beyond where I was? Yes.

    Have I had to struggle with all this? A big yes. Agony in understanding a brick masons helper could prophesy to me on a worksite, and a Pentecostal sermon could mean nothing to me.

    Do all speak in tongues? No. God will use who he will (if you let him). Are spiritual gifts for today? Yes. Are they imitated? Regretfully yes.

    So.

    Then and today there were positive moves of God, for visitors, and there are pretended copies of the reality.

    Folks go into churches and starve, but walk into Walmart and meet God on isle 12.

    Or think they met God in isle 12 and got a spirit, but it was not holy. The same in some churches. You get a spirit, but it is not holy.

    May the eyes of our understanding be opened to our reality in Christ Jesus.

    Mississippi redneck
    eddif
     
  3. dirtfarmer

    dirtfarmer Member

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    hello eddif, dirtfarmer here

    You have described modern day services. I know how they are conducted. The questions are, do you believe that the "services" in Paul's time were the same as today? Also, How many visitors do you they had in Paul's day?
     
  4. eddif

    eddif Member

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    Christian:
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    They can be.(IMHO)

    I suppose the answer is: it depends on the revivals / modern moves of God.

    In the time of Paul the work of Jesus was still drawing visitors on a regular basis.
    But.
    There were issues then too.

    I Corinthians 12:2 KJV
    Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
    3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

    There were issues then and now.

    Back to your question.
    Azusa Street Revival
    1906 - 1915? Would have had visitors.
    The following link adds some other dates:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_revival



    And I should qualify when I said more Pentecostal (in the previous post). I was referring to the Acts day of Pentecost rather than the Pentecostal denomination / non denominational modern movement,

    Population density and percentages are not my thing. Moves of God (like Jonah) are the way I think.

    Kidneys seldom think like a liver.

    eddif
     
  5. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    Having spent 18 years in a Pentecostal denomination, I have a deep appreciation for the gifts of the Spirit including tongues and prophesy.
    It was also my experience that a lot of tongues and prophesy was what I call "cultural." It was most often part of the culture of the denomination rather than an example of authentic manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit.

    But, from time to time, I also experienced the "real thing" and now, as an Eastern Orthodox believer, I still pray in tongues and occasionally lay hands on the sick and they recover.

    Man has a subconscious need to codify and control everything he experiences including the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I don't think the Holy Spirit submits to control and codification by people.

    iakov the fool
     
  6. WIP

    WIP Staff Member Administrator

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    Speaking in tongue is a mystery to me. I don't fully understand how any of us can invoke speaking in tongues on our own. Isn't the Holy Spirit the catalyst for speaking in tongues? But then Paul talks about it as if the person can choose to do it. I am confused.
     
  7. Justicewolf

    Justicewolf Member

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    If I believe God can do all things I believe he can lead someone to speak a language they do not know in order to reach those who need to hear the gospel in their native tongue. And I believe he works miracles too as I have a family member who received one. I also believe that prophecy can arrive at his doing. Though God knows there are plenty of charlatans out there, and especially on TV, who make it necessary to discern with the wisdom of the Holy Spirit who those true prophets would be.
    I think it does no good thing for me to say, God can do all things! And then proceed to argue in a topic like this what he can't do because someone thinks interpreting what someone not the apostle of Christ wrote to say otherwise.
    God can do all things.
    But not....? Really?
     
  8. eddif

    eddif Member

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    I Corinthians 12:4 KJV
    Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
    5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
    6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
    7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

    I expect if I asked you to explain the office of administration, you would have a tough time explaining every in and out of the office. You sit in the office of administrator, and those called deeply need to fulfill their calling.

    The same thing goes on when those who speak in tongues try to explain. The Holy Spirit is the source, and it is not totally by our will. Instructions are given to Gentiles.

    The gifts are for the common good. Sometimes the church / individual just does not want to go there. In that case you are encouraged to go and speak privately with God (no one to interpret). Ultimately you seek a public explanation (not with the purpose of pride, but service). Are you tempted toward pride? Regretfully yes.

    We see through a glass darkly.

    Mississippi redneck
    eddif
     
  9. JLB

    JLB Member

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    15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Mark 16:15-18


    Has the Gospel ceased?


    JLB
     
  10. godsquadgeek

    godsquadgeek Member

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    :goodpost
     
  11. Butch5

    Butch5 Member

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    That's a pretty sloppy argument. I would have expected better of Grudem. Firstly he makes assumptions of what Paul meant rather than what Paul actually said. That right there defeats his exegesis. That Paul didn't include tongues with the cessation of prophecy and knowledge can be seen by the fact that Paul indicates that the cessation of tongues is in the middle voice where as the cessation of prophecy and knowledge are in the passive voice. The passive voice indicates that something will cause prophecy and knowledge to cease whereas the middle voice indicates that tongues will cease of their own accord. This fits what we see in Scripture. Tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel. Once the Temple was destroyed there was no longer a need to warn of the coming destruction and thus tongues was no longer needed.
     

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