Cessationism- have tongues and prophecy ceased, or are they still active?

[jasonc]

It is easy to force scripture to fit into one's preferred theology.
There is plenty of HISTORICAL evidence for the continuance of the gifts of the spirit.

Irenaeus on the Gifts of the Spirit in 180 AD

The Lord raised the dead, and the apostles did so by the means of prayer, and this has been frequently done in the brotherhood on account of some necessity. When the entire church in that particular locality entreated God with much fasting and prayer, the spirit of the dead man has returned, and he has been bestowed in answer to the prayers of the saints. … Those who are truly His disciples, receiving grace from Him, … perform [works] in His name, in order to promote the welfare of others, according to the gift that each one has received from Him.


Some truly and certainly cast out devils. The result is that those who have been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe and join themselves to the church. Others have foreknowledge of things to come. They see visions, and they utter prophetic expressions. Still others heal the sick by laying their hands upon them, and the sick are made whole. What is more, as I have said, even the dead have been raised up and remained among us for many years.
Source: http://reclaimingthefaith.blogspot.com/2014/12/irenaeus-on-gifts-of-spirit-in-180ad.html

That is the HISTORICAL record of the continuation of the gifts of the spirit 110 years AFTER 70 AD.
We also have the witness of John Wesley in England and and Johnathan Edwards in America in the 1730s.

I believe that the so-called secession of the gifts is a contrivance which was necessary to support the "Dispensational" theology that was devised in the 1800s.

iakov the fool

Methodists were also Spirit filled

 

[Jim Parker]

I accept what they are doing and have no problems with it
whatsoever. Regarding my post to which you responded,
do you remember reading this?
"But I don't have any strong feelings against "speaking in
tongues" and its doesn't bother me any at all to hear my
good Pentecostal brothers and sisters do that."__JAG


I didn't say a single word about finding it amusing. That is what
YOU said. That came out of YOUR mind, not my mind.


I am always very careful in what I say.


The notion of "mock" originated within YOUR mind.


There was nothing in my post that remotely hinted at that.
Another notion that originated within YOUR mind.

"I love the Pentecostals"__JAG

"There is a really magnificent large Pentecostal Church
in another town, and these good people sometimes . . ."
__JAG


I always tread carefully.

Thanks for clarifying that for me.

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

Methodists were also Spirit filled

"Methodist" is the name that the English gave to Wesley's followers.
It was meant to be a disparaging term like "holy rollers" and "Bible thumpers."

iakov the fool

 

[1Genesis]

Again: It's not about knowing. It's about doing.

That isn't a proper answer to sustain the accusation made previously.

 

[JAG ..]

Thanks for clarifying that for me.

You're welcome.
_____


Btw, what does "iakov the fool" mean in your siggy?
If you don't mind telling me?
I googled it, and nothing came up.

`

 

[jasonc]

"Methodist" is the name that the English gave to Wesley's followers.
It was meant to be a disparaging term like "holy rollers" and "Bible thumpers."

iakov the fool

Yet that's what they call themselves now.

Wesley's first church is still a church and has tours.I'm planning a return to Savannah and will take another historical tour.I bet they will have alot to say.the photo of him is where he taught Sunday School.

 

[Jim Parker]

That isn't a proper answer to sustain the accusation made previously.

Gnosticism is about gaining knowledge without (or with minimal) concern for behavior.
"Doing" is about being hearers AND doers of God's word.
Hearing (gaining knowledge) is meaningless unless it is followed by obeying what one has heard.
The scriptures are not given that we should become experts in theology and exegesis but that we should do the things which Jesus commanded.
Jas 2:14 "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?"
The expected answer is; "No, faith without works will not save him."

Ergo: "It's not about knowing. It's about doing."

iakov the fool

 

[Jim Parker]

You're welcome.
_____


Btw, what does "iakov the fool" mean in your siggy?
If you don't mind telling me?
I googled it, and nothing came up.

`

"Iakov" is the Slavic equivalent of the English "James." (That's me.)
"The fool" is a reference to the Russian cultural character, the "fool for Christ." (You can google "fool for Christ" I think.)
It is also a reminder to myself that I'm not as smart as I think I am.

iakov the fool

 

[jasonc]

I got that wrong.

 

[jasonc]

"Iakov" is the Slavic equivalent of the English "James." (That's me.)
"The fool" is a reference to the Russian cultural character, the "fool for Christ." (You can google "fool for Christ" I think.)
It is also a reminder to myself that I'm not as smart as I think I am.

iakov the fool

I got that wrong.

 

[JAG ..]

Why God allows us to go through trials and
tribulations:

[Here you listed 20 reasons, post 91]

You've posted that List Of 20 before and I really appreciated all 20
of them, and the first time I saw you post that list, I printed myself
a copy and put them in my Daily Meditations Notebook. I read over
the list regularly. Great blessing. Lotta truth in your List Of 20.

 

[JAG ..]

"Iakov" is the Slavic equivalent of the English "James." (That's me.)
"The fool" is a reference to the Russian cultural character, the "fool for Christ."
(You can google "fool for Christ" I think.)
iakov the fool

Thanks for the reply. I understand.

It is also a reminder to myself that I'm not as smart as I think I am.

Most of us need to be reminded of that from time to time. I'll put my name on
that list too.

`

 

[1Genesis]

Gnosticism is about gaining knowledge without (or with minimal) concern for behavior.
"Doing" is about being hearers AND doers of God's word.
Hearing (gaining knowledge) is meaningless unless it is followed by obeying what one has heard.
The scriptures are not given that we should become experts in theology and exegesis but that we should do the things which Jesus commanded.
Jas 2:14 "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?"
The expected answer is; "No, faith without works will not save him."

Ergo: "It's not about knowing. It's about doing."

iakov the fool

Who taught you what Gnosticism is?

 

[Jim Parker]

Who taught you what Gnosticism is?

I learned about it in seminary and in my post-graduate studies.
What I stated is not an exhaustive definition.
Why do you ask.

 

[1Genesis]

I learned about it in seminary and in my post-graduate studies.
What I stated is not an exhaustive definition.
Why do you ask.

Just curious. Thank you for indulging me.

 

[FreeGrace]

here is the verse:
1 Corinthians 14:2New King James Version (NKJV)
2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

so we see that tongues is not for witnessing, or exhortation or anything that speaks to men, tongues is for public prayer too, or public worship.

However, there is also this verse:
" For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." 1 Cor 14:14

 

[ezra]

My point was that those participating in tongues need to follow what the Bible says about it. 1 Cor 14 must be followed. If not, then whatever is going on is not biblical. It's either hype-emotionalism or, worst case, demon possession.


Unless those who claim to speak in tongues follows 1 Cor 14 very carefully, they are being deceived.

you said tongues ceased in a.d 70 ( now that i think about it..i dont think free grace said that} " if i misquoted wrong person it was not on purpose " where is that found ? i dont speak in tongues i certainly do not consider it of the devil while your saying follow scriptures 1 cor 14 i agree do as it says decently and in order most of all as the spirit gives utterance several things come to mind if it be of God it will last if not it wont ..your either southern or independent fundamentalist . how about we follow this
Philippians 4:8King James Version (KJV)
8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. i know of a Pentecostal minister that says eternal security teaching is false doctrine . how would you feel if attacked on that.. yes i try to keep a open mind.. no i dont agree with much of the Pentecostal teaching nor do i agree fully with the baptist.. i attend a non denom church.. i have heard a lady use tongues in a very low tone . but at the church i attend i dont have to pass a litmus test of belief
imo there are far more important things that are going on in the church. that must be addressed...same sex marriage yes it says tongues will cease but does it say when?

worst case, demon possession.

in some cases flesh maybe but demon possession. ..how can we be eternally secure and demon possessed there goes your eternal security doctrine

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"A lot of people have dreamed a lot of dreams. That's not the point. What wasn't clarified is how many if any were validated?

The last sentence is a bit fuzzy. Please explain what was meant by "a base telling others...". Seems to be a typo."

Military bases where I have never saw until I went there,it was a month.

Again, a fuzzy sentence. And bases don't speak. So bases don't "tell others".

So, what does this new sentence mean, "military bases where I have never saw until I went there, it was a month."

The visions from Afghanistan are words of knowledge as I told her what I saw her do.

My question of whether any of your visions/dreams were validated still hasn't been answered. Seems there is an avoidance.

 

[FreeGrace]

It is easy to force scripture to fit into one's preferred theology.
There is plenty of HISTORICAL evidence for the continuance of the gifts of the spirit.

Once again, the debate has never been about all the gifts of the Spirit. Just 3 specific ones, from 1 Cor 13:8.

 

[FreeGrace]

you said tongues ceased in a.d 70 ( now that i think about it..i dont think free grace said that} " if i misquoted wrong person it was not on purpose " where is that found ?

Correct. I never said that. My point is about the completion of the canon, which would have been sometime between AD 86-95, when John finished Revelation and his 3 epistles.

in some cases flesh maybe but demon possession. ..how can we be eternally secure and demon possessed there goes your eternal security doctrine

Again, I never said that all tongues are from the devil. I did make a comment about a missionary who testified that at a service out in the mission field in a 3rd world country there was "speaking in tongues". What shocked him was that one of the "speakers" spoke in a language that the missionary did understand, and what he heard was cursings toward God. None of the congregation understood a thing, and thought the speaker was "Spirit filled".

Given what I've seen and what I've been told, it seems a lot of tongues is emotionally driven. There's a lot of emotions involved when there are tongues, from what I've seen and been told.

My only point is that for those who claim to have this particular gift, they must strictly follow what the Bible says about it.