Changed from pretribulation to post-tribulation view of the rapture

[I_love_Springtime]

It just makes more sense to me. At the last trump, after the sun turns dark and moon turns to blood, the angels will gather together his elect from the four corners of the earth. It makes sense with what Jesus says in Matthew 24, and what Paul says in Thessalonians, with what John says in the book of Revelation, and also with Daniel. I've been trying to fit a round peg in a square hole all this time, until I accepted that post-tribulation better describes the rapture.

 

[for_his_glory]

And the truth will set you free from man's doctrines and theories. Truth is there right before our eyes when we read what is actually written. I use to believe in a pretrib at one time and it is these exact scriptures that got me to change my mind. I have been asking pretribbers for years to show me scripture that says anything about a pretrib rapture, but they never could as they like to us Rev 4:1 as proof scripture which has nothing to do with the catching up of the saints.

 

[Michael74]

Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.” Luke 12:40 NKJV

 

[JLB]

Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.” Luke 12:40 NKJV

Thank God the Church has been left the signs that He gave us, that we may know when He will return, so that He will not come as a thief in the night for us.


But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:4


JLB

 

[Michael74]

“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. Matthew 24:36 New King James Version

 

[JLB]

“But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. Matthew 24:36 New King James Version

Yes, the day.

This is Jesus telling us He will return on the feast of trumpets.

No one knew when that day would be because it started on a new moon.

When the new moon appeared the would signal by blowing the trumpets.

Which is why Paul said this -

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thessalonians 4:16


and again


Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52



Again, the Day of the Lord will not come as a thief in the night for Christian’s.



JLB

 

[DiscipleDave]

It just makes more sense to me. At the last trump, after the sun turns dark and moon turns to blood, the angels will gather together his elect from the four corners of the earth. It makes sense with what Jesus says in Matthew 24, and what Paul says in Thessalonians, with what John says in the book of Revelation, and also with Daniel. I've been trying to fit a round peg in a square hole all this time, until I accepted that post-tribulation better describes the rapture.

Scriptures better describes a Mid-trib Rapture, then either a pre or post-trib. There are 7 seals that are opened, then 7 Trumpets that are blown, then 7 vials/bowels that are poured out. At the 7th Trumpet sounding is the Day of the Lord, the Rapture, the Return of Jesus Christ, Dead raised, living Christians raised, Unsaved left behind.
Now pay attention here, what else happens at the 7th Trumpet blowing?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16.. .. . .17 .. . .. .18. .. . .19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

When is the Temple of God opened? At the 7th Trumpet sounding. What comes out of the Temple of God?

Rev_15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. 7 . . . 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Rev_16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

So Scriptures plainly and clearly reveals that at the 7th Trumpet is when the Temple of God is opened, and AFTER the 7th Trumpet sounds, is when the 7 Angels will pour out the seven plagues upon men on the EARTH, those men which were not taken up in the Rapture at the 7th Trumpet sounding.

Plainly and clearly the Scriptures reveals that there are 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 plagues. Christ Returns at the 7th Trumpet to the Earth and sets up His Kingdom on the Earth, even as Zechariah 14 teaches, then AFTER the Rapture, those who are left behind will experience the 7 last plagues which is most certainly a part of the Tribulation Period. Jesus Christ Returns and Raptures the Church MID-TRIB according to plain Scriptures and what they plainly teach for all to see. The interpretations of humans corrupt plain Scriptures.

 

[DiscipleDave]

 

[JLB]

Scriptures better describes a Mid-trib Rapture, then either a pre or post-trib. There are 7 seals that are opened, then 7 Trumpets that are blown, then 7 vials/bowels that are poured out. At the 7th Trumpet sounding is the Day of the Lord, the Rapture, the Return of Jesus Christ, Dead raised, living Christians raised, Unsaved left behind.
Now pay attention here, what else happens at the 7th Trumpet blowing?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16.. .. . .17 .. . .. .18. .. . .19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

When is the Temple of God opened? At the 7th Trumpet sounding. What comes out of the Temple of God?

Rev_15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. 7 . . . 8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Rev_16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

So Scriptures plainly and clearly reveals that at the 7th Trumpet is when the Temple of God is opened, and AFTER the 7th Trumpet sounds, is when the 7 Angels will pour out the seven plagues upon men on the EARTH, those men which were not taken up in the Rapture at the 7th Trumpet sounding.

Plainly and clearly the Scriptures reveals that there are 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 plagues. Christ Returns at the 7th Trumpet to the Earth and sets up His Kingdom on the Earth, even as Zechariah 14 teaches, then AFTER the Rapture, those who are left behind will experience the 7 last plagues which is most certainly a part of the Tribulation Period. Jesus Christ Returns and Raptures the Church MID-TRIB according to plain Scriptures and what they plainly teach for all to see. The interpretations of humans corrupt plain Scriptures.

View attachment 6663

Here is what occurs at His coming.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3


Here is the plain and clear order of events that happen at His coming.

1. The resurrection of the dread in Christ:

And the dead in Christ will rise first.

2. The Rapture:​

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

3. The destruction of all the wicked; including the antichrist:​

For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8



These three things take place at His coming.



JLB

 

[DiscipleDave]

Here is what occurs at His coming.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3

Amen, this is absolutely TRUE.

Here is the plain and clear order of events that happen at His coming.

1. The resurrection of the dread in Christ:

And the dead in Christ will rise first.

Amen, This is TRUE.

2. The Rapture:​

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them

Amen, this is TRUE.

3. The destruction of all the wicked; including the antichrist:​

For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

This is NOT Scriptural. You say above [/quote]Here is the plain and clear order of events that happen at His coming.[/quote]
And then list 3 things. The first two things are indeed Plain and Clear, but then you mention the third thing, which is not plain nor clear. #3 is something that you believe, not something that is Plain and clear in Scriptures.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
2 Thessalonians 2:8

Let us quote the actual verse 2 Thess 2:8

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Are you not assuming that it is ALL the wicked of the entire world, to interpret that verse to mean ALL wicked shall be immediately destroyed is contrary to sound doctrine. This verse is a prophecy concerning the Return of Christ to the Earth during the Rapture. The wicked are revealed because they are not Raptured. All nations that come against Jerusalem will be destroyed by the spirit of His mouth and His brightness, their eyes and tongues will melt in their heads, but only after becoming blind by His brightness. Please i beg you, to read my article on Zechariah 14 by clicking HERE. Which plainly and clearly teaches contrary to ALL the wicked of the Earth being destroyed at the coming of Jesus Christ. Because according to Zech 14. All the wicked that comes up against Jerusalem will die miserably, and all those wicked that did not come against Jerusalem on THAT DAY, will have to come up to Jerusalem year to year to observe the Feast of Tabernacles that Jesus Christ will set up when He gets here to become King of all Kings of every Nation of the Earth. The Saints are raised to be with Him, the wicked are forced to come and serve Him from year to year. Read the Word of God and understand. If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures then change what you believe to line up with Scriptures. DO NOT change Scriptures to line up with your own beliefs.

These three things take place at His coming.

Well as that song says, two out of three ain't bad. You got two right but the third one is not Scriptural.

 

[JLB]

This is NOT Scriptural. You say above Here is the plain and clear order of events that happen at His coming.
And then list 3 things. The first two things are indeed Plain and Clear, but then you mention the third thing, which is not plain nor clear. #3 is something that you believe, not something that is Plain and clear in Scriptures.

Brother, I listed the scriptures in order that show the three events that occur at His coming.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3


The destruction of the wicked is brought about by the Lord at His coming.

The rapture of the Church is brought about by the Lord at His coming.


The resurrection of the dead in Christ is brought about by the Lord at His coming.



Please read these words from the scriptures.

These are not my words.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


The lawless one, the false christ will be destroyed by the Lord at His coming.



JLB

 

[DiscipleDave]

Brother, I listed the scriptures in order that show the three events that occur at His coming.

True, but when you say that ALL the wicked are destroyed at His coming that is something that you are adding, and not what Scriptures actually teach. That is what i am addressing.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words. But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3

All this absolutely TRUE, but when you interpret the word "they" to mean all the wicked, that is not Scriptural but what you interpret.

Please read and try to understand Zechariah 14, which talks about when Jesus gets here that all THOSE wicked who were attacking Jerusalem are the "THEY" that are destroyed at His coming, NOT all the wicked of the entire planet Earth, those are destroyed by the 7 vials that are poured out AFTER Jesus gets here and sets up His Kingdom on Earth. The mere FACT that the prophet of Jesus Christ plainly said that after Jesus gets here, that all those heathens that did not fight against Jerusalem would come up year to year to Jerusalem, these were NOT destroyed at His coming, if they are made to come up year to year. If what you believe does not line up with Scriptures, then change what you believe.

The destruction of the wicked is brought about by the Lord at His coming.

True, But NOT All the wicked as you interpret.

The rapture of the Church is brought about by the Lord at His coming.

Amen Brother, that is TRUE.

The resurrection of the dead in Christ is brought about by the Lord at His coming.

Again, Amen, that is TRUE.

Please read these words from the scriptures.

These are not my words.

i believe all verses in the Holy Bible, the problem is when you say ALL the wicked are destroyed at His Coming, that is NOT in the Bible, but is what you interpret.

And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8

Amen, Brother, that is TRUE.

The lawless one, the false christ will be destroyed by the Lord at His coming.

Amen, Brother, that is TRUE.

Please try to understand, we are not discussing what the Scriptures say and teach, but we are discussing what you are teaching when you say that ALL THE WICKED are destroyed at His coming, This Scriptures does not teach at all, but is something that YOU teach. If then you teach that ALL the wicked are destroyed, can you show relevant Scriptures that teach what you are saying? That "ALL" the wicked are destroyed.





JLB[/QUOTE]

 

[JLB]

True, but when you say that ALL the wicked are destroyed at His coming that is something that you are adding, and not what Scriptures actually teach. That is what i am addressing.

Ok fair enough.

Let’s do this line upon line, so we can see who Jesus will destroy, at His coming.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


We know that the Antichrist, false messiah, man of sin, lawless one will be destroyed at His coming.



JLB

 

[John Prewett]

Satan wants all to ignore such as how to identify the Beast ... and what the "mark" is all about.

A major way Satan gets people to ignore the Beast and "marking" is to convince Christians they will be whisked away to heaven before the Beast even takes over.

Most/many who promulgate the "Rapture next" false prophecy
use Paul's writing to support that teaching ....

They refuse to understand that Paul (2000 years ago)
was writing about the "end time" scenario of ancient Israel.

Paul was NOT writing about OUR soon to come end of era scenario with Beast and "marking"

The God sent Revelation reveals OUR end of era scenario.

Prior to Paul's conversion, Paul served Satan .
After his conversion, Jesus made Paul a great Apostle.

I hope many who are now serving Satan by promulgating the "Rapture next" false prophecy will be converted like Saul was and begin promulgating the truth.

The Church (composed of NT "saints")
will serve Jesus in power during the reign of the Beast.

 

[john darling]

A major way Satan gets people to ignore the Beast and "marking" is to convince Christians they will be whisked away to heaven before the Beast even takes over.

I think this is a pretty good observation which makes sense in the context. If a person believes he will not need to face tribulation then he is less likely to prepare for that tribulation.

This is consistent with Jesus' warning in Matthew 24 about the confusion that will result from people believing Jesus should have returned earlier than he actually will. He says they'll be claiming Jesus secretly returned to the desert or the secret chambers, but that we should not believe them.

Also, even without any scriptural reference as some kind of proof, it doesn't make any sense that God would take all his laborers away from the earth at exactly the moment the earth will most need their witness.

 

[dianegcook]

Ok fair enough.

Let’s do this line upon line, so we can see who Jesus will destroy, at His coming.


And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8


We know that the Antichrist, false messiah, man of sin, lawless one will be destroyed at His coming.



JLB

Regarding your last statement....
The false one's role will be destroyed, remember he is loosed again after the millennium, then thrown into the Lake of Fire.

 

[JLB]

Regarding your last statement....
The false one's role will be destroyed, remember he is loosed again after the millennium, then thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Not so.

The man of sin, the lawless one, antichrist is a man.


Satan is a fallen angel.


The Antichrist will be destroyed at His coming.




JLB

 

[dianegcook]

Not so.

The man of sin, the lawless one, antichrist is a man.


Satan is a fallen angel.


The Antichrist will be destroyed at His coming.




JLB

Satan comes in many names.
Serpent, Dragon, Lucifer, lawless one, king of tyre, antichrist, abomination of desolation, death..
They are different roles that he takes.
Yes,I agree antichrist role will be destroyed.
I do not believe that the antichrist will be a man though.
I believe it will be a supernatural being that performs miracles.
Imho

 

[jasonc]

It just makes more sense to me. At the last trump, after the sun turns dark and moon turns to blood, the angels will gather together his elect from the four corners of the earth. It makes sense with what Jesus says in Matthew 24, and what Paul says in Thessalonians, with what John says in the book of Revelation, and also with Daniel. I've been trying to fit a round peg in a square hole all this time, until I accepted that post-tribulation better describes the rapture.

 

[lecoop]

It just makes more sense to me. At the last trump, after the sun turns dark and moon turns to blood, the angels will gather together his elect from the four corners of the earth. It makes sense with what Jesus says in Matthew 24, and what Paul says in Thessalonians, with what John says in the book of Revelation, and also with Daniel. I've been trying to fit a round peg in a square hole all this time, until I accepted that post-tribulation better describes the rapture.

Please explain in a common sense way, how posttribbers will get to the marriage and supper that will take place in heaven before Jesus descends to the battle?