Christian rockers: ministry, vocation, or both? plus poll

[farouk]

...Christian concerts, yes. But those are much more geared to entertainment than worship. (And there's nothing wrong with entertainment. God never said we have to be sad or bored all the time!) But just like using modern music, if they are used somewhere I see no problem for those who worship this way. In fact, I'd like to go to a service like that sometime to see what it's like!

Obadiah:

So have you been to some good Christian rock concerts lately?

 

[Obadiah]

Obadiah:

So have you been to some good Christian rock concerts lately?

If you're talking about the big name Christian groups, sadly, not in a long time. I've been struggling to make a living and there haven't been any good ones withing 100 miles of where I live. (And since I have a full size pickup for work, 100 miles each way is just cost prohibitive for me these days!) There is a local church that I was attending (before I was given a job at a different church) that is blessed with some tremendously good musicians. They had a Sunday night concert a week ago that I was able to go to and really enjoyed it. They aren't "heavy metal" type hard rock, but they can get close sometimes and they have several in the group that rival any of the top names. They do a variety of music from some of then newest to even some of the old hymns. It was a blessing and I hope they do more of them.

How about you?

 

[farouk]

If you're talking about the big name Christian groups, sadly, not in a long time. I've been struggling to make a living and there haven't been any good ones withing 100 miles of where I live. (And since I have a full size pickup for work, 100 miles each way is just cost prohibitive for me these days!) There is a local church that I was attending (before I was given a job at a different church) that is blessed with some tremendously good musicians. They had a Sunday night concert a week ago that I was able to go to and really enjoyed it. They aren't "heavy metal" type hard rock, but they can get close sometimes and they have several in the group that rival any of the top names. They do a variety of music from some of then newest to even some of the old hymns. It was a blessing and I hope they do more of them.

How about you?

Obadiah:

Oh, I listen to recordings. There's quite a lot of variety out there, anyway, to listen to.

Also I like the old hymns.

When it comes to concerts, whether the singers and performers are in a tuxedo or off the shoulder gown for a classical concert, or in denim, leather and showing their tattoos, for a rock concert, is simply a matter of subjective taste that goes with the territory, I guess.

I don't see how one is inherently more or less infused with supposed spirituality; it's the lyrics, and how God honoring they are, that count, I reckon.

Blessings.

 

[farouk]

..
The Bible study I attend is more like a church than a Bible study. They have a praise band, modern music, and, yes, lights. But the message they preach is a Biblical one. I feel the Spirit there. Furthermore, I can tell you that anyone who walks in there can tell right off the bat that it's a Christian establishment.
..

questdriven:

So have you been to any good Christian rock concerts just lately?

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Not since January. I don't go to them too often, but I have a good chance of hearing about upcoming concerts from the Bible study (especially since it's part of the ministry of a local Christian radio station) and my friends. Also sometimes bands or singers will come to the Bible study.

 

[farouk]

Not since January. I don't go to them too often, but I have a good chance of hearing about upcoming concerts from the Bible study (especially since it's part of the ministry of a local Christian radio station) and my friends. Also sometimes bands or singers will come to the Bible study.

questdriven:

Well, interesting.

So the bands and singers that sometimes come to your Bible study, do they for instance talk a bit about their ministry or vocation or however they themselves see their part in Christian rock?

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

questdriven:

Well, interesting.

So the bands and singers that sometimes come to your Bible study, do they for instance talk a bit about their ministry or vocation or however they themselves see their part in Christian rock?

Blessings.

Usually they replace the praise band in the worship service the days they come, and they bring the message as well. We're told some information about them and their ministry at the beginning, but by the leaders of our study group usually.

 

[farouk]

Usually they replace the praise band in the worship service the days they come, and they bring the message as well. We're told some information about them and their ministry at the beginning, but by the leaders of our study group usually.

questdriven:

I see. Sounds like you guys at the Bible study think they make a positive contribution, then, and if it's the message or equivalent that they are giving, it's really more like ministry, I guess.

(My comment about Stryper on the other thread I guess kind of assumes that some Christians would find them a bit overpowering to call them strictly ministry that a general Christian audience would benefit from, but still...)

Sounds like the folk at the Bible study you go to are likely to keep you posted about any good Christian rock concerts coming to your area, anyway. I guess, though, that the presence of Christian rock wouldn't be the preponderant reason why you would move from one church to another, though.

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

questdriven:

I see. Sounds like you guys at the Bible study think they make a positive contribution, then, and if it's the message or equivalent that they are giving, it's really more like ministry, I guess.

(My comment about Stryper on the other thread I guess kind of assumes that some Christians would find them a bit overpowering to call them strictly ministry that a general Christian audience would benefit from, but still...)

Sounds like the folk at the Bible study you go to are likely to keep you posted about any good Christian rock concerts coming to your area, anyway. I guess, though, that the presence of Christian rock wouldn't be the preponderant reason why you would move from one church to another, though.

Blessings.

They can be. I'm not sure I always agree when they have the bands make like the entire service a worship service...not that that's bad, but I do wish it was a bit more like an actual Bible study sometimes. But most of the time there is a message. And I do get something out of the message, as well as encouragement. It makes my week better.

I'm not concerned with what music the church uses. Hymns and piano music are just as good for worshiping. While I in some ways prefer modern worship songs, it's not really a factor to me.

 

[farouk]

They can be. I'm not sure I always agree when they have the bands make like the entire service a worship service...not that that's bad, but I do wish it was a bit more like an actual Bible study sometimes. But most of the time there is a message. And I do get something out of the message, as well as encouragement. It makes my week better.

I'm not concerned with what music the church uses. Hymns and piano music are just as good for worshiping. While I in some ways prefer modern worship songs, it's not really a factor to me.

questdriven:

Well, you've made me very thoughtful. I shouldn't be, but I'm almost taken aback at the very restrained and balanced nature of your comments because so often when people react against the restrictions of bombastic fundamentalism they will get into Christian rock music in a big way at the expense of solid Biblical content; and I see already you're beginning to crave more of such content even sometimes at your Bible study which admittedly you very much enjoy. Far from being worried about you, your mom should be very thankful that the Lord seems to be guiding you increasingly into a healthy and solidly doctrinal outlook.

Yes, it's wise not to make music, one way or another, the key to fellowship.

Blessings.

 

[Obadiah]

I think we have to understand as well that music (and all that goes with it) is a tool only. It is not worship in an of itself, and it is not entertainment in and of itself either. It's just a tool that can be used correctly or incorrectly, and like with any tool, what is the correct way depends on the situation. We have to remember that just because it's Christian music doesn't mean it can't be used just for entertainment. It's not always limited to just worship. It can also be both at the same time. Even though worship is "for" God, there is nothing in the Bible to indicate we aren't allowed to enjoy it too.

It's the responsibility of whoever is leading the music to know what is correct for the situation. I watched a 45 minute long performance by a band one time where the lead singer was the obvious person in charge, and as she sang she never opened her eyes to look at the audience one time. She had a wonderful, powerful voice and the rest of the band were good musicians as well. But the problem was that this was during a worship service and she was so disconnected from the worship (or lack thereof) that the entire congregation could have walked out and I don't think she would have noticed. I think this kind of "performance" is where a lot of people get the idea that modern music is sinful in church. She was not "leading worship" at all. She was only performing in her own little world with no regard for how it was affecting the "worship" of the congregation. If this had been a concert only for the purpose of entertainment, that could have been fine. (Although even most big name secular bands tend to "tune" their performances depending on audience reaction.) But this lady wasn't "leading worship" at all so for me her performance seemed wrong fro a church worship service setting. On the other hand, I've seen others in her position that are true leaders who are in touch with God and are guided by him to provide music that leads the congregation to worship. These people are aware of the congregation and how they are reacting to the music, and will tailor what they are doing to whatever inspires the congregation to worship. That might be modern music, older hymns, or many times a combination. But it is obvious when they are actually leading worship as opposed to just performing music.

Maybe if more leaders of what we today call "praise bands" or "worship teams" would focus more on the actual leading and inspiring to worship, maybe there wouldn't be quite as much backlash to allowing more modern things into our churches from those who are more traditional. Just a thought.

 

[farouk]

I think we have to understand as well that music (and all that goes with it) is a tool only. It is not worship in an of itself, and it is not entertainment in and of itself either. It's just a tool that can be used correctly or incorrectly, and like with any tool, what is the correct way depends on the situation. We have to remember that just because it's Christian music doesn't mean it can't be used just for entertainment. It's not always limited to just worship. It can also be both at the same time. Even though worship is "for" God, there is nothing in the Bible to indicate we aren't allowed to enjoy it too.

It's the responsibility of whoever is leading the music to know what is correct for the situation. I watched a 45 minute long performance by a band one time where the lead singer was the obvious person in charge, and as she sang she never opened her eyes to look at the audience one time. She had a wonderful, powerful voice and the rest of the band were good musicians as well. But the problem was that this was during a worship service and she was so disconnected from the worship (or lack thereof) that the entire congregation could have walked out and I don't think she would have noticed. I think this kind of "performance" is where a lot of people get the idea that modern music is sinful in church. She was not "leading worship" at all. She was only performing in her own little world with no regard for how it was affecting the "worship" of the congregation. If this had been a concert only for the purpose of entertainment, that could have been fine. (Although even most big name secular bands tend to "tune" their performances depending on audience reaction.) But this lady wasn't "leading worship" at all so for me her performance seemed wrong fro a church worship service setting. On the other hand, I've seen others in her position that are true leaders who are in touch with God and are guided by him to provide music that leads the congregation to worship. These people are aware of the congregation and how they are reacting to the music, and will tailor what they are doing to whatever inspires the congregation to worship. That might be modern music, older hymns, or many times a combination. But it is obvious when they are actually leading worship as opposed to just performing music.

Maybe if more leaders of what we today call "praise bands" or "worship teams" would focus more on the actual leading and inspiring to worship, maybe there wouldn't be quite as much backlash to allowing more modern things into our churches from those who are more traditional. Just a thought.

Obadiah:

You are right that music is not synonymous with worship itself: true worship is in spirit and in truth, as the Lord Jesus said in John 4.

I think this is where a lot of people go astray when they tacitly assume that worship and music are the same. Like you say, it's a tool; and the style can be very subjective.

I know what you mean about something that is a performance only. Re. looking at people directly, a lot of British people are actually shy and reserved and are not necessarily culturally accustomed to looking directly at people in the face, as North Americans would, or if they do, it's doesn't come easily to them. Although I know what you mean.

Blessings.

 

[Obadiah]

...a lot of British people are actually shy and reserved and are not necessarily culturally accustomed to looking directly at people in the face, as North Americans would, or if they do, it's doesn't come easily to them. Although I know what you mean.

Blessings.

Didn't know this. But the church experience I was talking about was in North America. It wasn't so much a problem that she didn't make direct eye contact with people in the congregation, it was that with her eyes completely closed and using in-ear type monitors, she was completely oblivious as to how the congregation was reacting to her "performance". After about 10 minutes of that, I was thinking of leaving to go to another church instead (it was in a town I was just visiting, not my home town) but it was like watching a train wreck. Just wanted to see how far it would go before she finally made an attempt to see how she was affecting the congregation. She never did. It's too bad too because she and her band had a lot of potential to lead a great worship time. Glad I stayed too because after the music they had a missionary give his testimony and it was really inspirational.

 

[farouk]

IShe had a wonderful, powerful voice and the rest of the band were good musicians as well. .

They do need to 'connect', yes.

The lady in Casting Crowns (can't remember her name) has a good voice, and they do seem to connect.

 

[vocalyocal]

vocalyocal:

Well, by God's grace I love the Word of God, too, as do many of us.

But do you really think that the New Testament, particularly, lays down 'correct' music styles?

I think the bible lays enough scripture to tell us that we should be different from the rest of the world, the more we are conformed to the ways of the world the less we are different.........this fact is blatant when you look at the Amish, this is the other end of the spectrum for being nonconformed to the world............then there is the opposite end of the spectrum where you wouldn't know the difference between a church service and a heavy metal rock concert.................my guess is each person has their own line in the sand so to speak

 

[farouk]

I think the bible lays enough scripture to tell us that we should be different from the rest of the world, the more we are conformed to the ways of the world the less we are different.........this fact is blatant when you look at the Amish, this is the other end of the spectrum for being nonconformed to the world............then there is the opposite end of the spectrum where you wouldn't know the difference between a church service and a heavy metal rock concert.................my guess is each person has their own line in the sand so to speak

vocalyocal:

There is actually a very live Christian heavy metal scene, with some of the lyrics being bold in testimony. While often such lyrics would not necessarily have been written with a church service in mind, I'm not sure if one can say that a particular genre inheres spirituality while another does not. I'm a great believer in the primacy of lyrics rather than style.

 

[farouk]

PS:

..They had a Sunday night concert a week ago that I was able to go to and really enjoyed it. They aren't "heavy metal" type hard rock, but they can get close sometimes and they have several in the group that rival any of the top names. ..

Obadiah:

Yes, the dividing line between what is and is not heavy metal can be hard to define sometimes, I guess, right?

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

PS:

Obadiah:

Yes, the dividing line between what is and is not heavy metal can be hard to define sometimes, I guess, right?

Blessings.

What style do you think this would be?:
[video=youtube;o7qi2KlUffs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7qi2KlUffs[/video]
Definitely not metal, but different than the majority of Casting Crowns' songs.

 

[farouk]

What style do you think this would be?:
[video=youtube;o7qi2KlUffs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7qi2KlUffs[/video]
Definitely not metal, but different than the majority of Casting Crowns' songs.

questdriven:

Hi there; the link up here was dead; maybe in the US it's a live link.

Yes, I can see that for a band to restrict itself to one genre only can for some musicians and composers be a little inhibiting, so maybe it's not suprising when they alter their style and genre sometimes.

Blessings.

 

[evenifigoalone]

vocalyocal:

There is actually a very live Christian heavy metal scene, with some of the lyrics being bold in testimony. While often such lyrics would not necessarily have been written with a church service in mind, I'm not sure if one can say that a particular genre inheres spirituality while another does not. I'm a great believer in the primacy of lyrics rather than style.

Case in point:
[video=youtube;GX0aaYIUSKw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX0aaYIUSKw[/video]

[video=youtube;q_LuIH5Pxvo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_LuIH5Pxvo[/video]
(At about 2:10 is where the relation to Christianity comes in.)

[video=youtube;jhf72YawNT8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhf72YawNT8[/video]

[video=youtube;KpRUEsZoTyI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpRUEsZoTyI[/video]

[video=youtube;EBsKmtm3wJM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBsKmtm3wJM[/video]

[video=youtube;en80q-upISU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=en80q-upISU[/video]

[video=youtube;mmW-CwshfOk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmW-CwshfOk[/video]

Not all Christian metal/hard rock bands are as frank as Disciple, though. Red and Skillet tend to be more subtle.