Christmas

Discussion in 'Bible Study' started by Douglas Summers, Oct 9, 2017.

  1. JohnDB

    JohnDB Staff Member Moderator

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    Yom Kippur...(I think that I'm having a cranial flatulation) was just celebrated a couple of weeks ago. The Jewish New Year. Meaning that this calendar is off.

    Upon further review...
    Civil New Year is in Tishri.

    Link

    But the Chronicles schedule was changed. And I have to adjust what was done with any schedule. The first service weeks on any schedule for service in the Temple (using the Aleph) is never listed. It isn't mentioned...but we know that it exists.
    But the Levites said that the first of anything belongs to God. (Even the Aleph has no sound but will drastically change the meaning and pronunciation of a word).
    So exactly how they covered this period is something of a mystery. But all schedules start with Beth (2).
    Then on top of this...
    Jesus was born in a year with 13 months.(if remembering the research correctly) (Not all years had 13 months...most had 12 with 28 days based upon the lunar cycle and a thing with the stars)

    Where this is maddening trying to figure out a precise date... many records were lost with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.
    But what this means today is that Sunday is Levitically speaking actually Saturday. (Due to the astronomical calendar and the Lunar calendar.)

    And in these passages it isn't clear as to which calendar (civil or Leverite) they are referring to. The exile in Babylon shifted everything. Even the names of the months got changed.

    When speaking personally to Mike Schneider (Rabbi who has done extensive research into the Hebrew Calendar and written many books on the subject) was telling me about his frustrations in nailing down specific dates. (But don't start a discussion about Jesus with him)
    So when dealing with specific dates pre-Babylon exile to Post Babylon exile and then once again post diaspora just about anything is possible. Which is why Saturday is Friday and Sunday is Shabbat. (And they do know but don't want to have the formal hearings to confirm it all)
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
  2. for_his_glory

    for_his_glory Member

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    Hi JohnDB,

    My source for the calendar is www.jewfaq.org
    The rest of my post was from another site I never wrote down in my notes.

    The calendar I posted is the Civil Equivalent with Nissan being March-April

    The "first month" of the Jewish calendar is the month of Nissan, in the spring, when Passover occurs. However, the Jewish New Year is in Tishri, the seventh month, and that is when the year number is increased. This concept of different starting points for a year is not as strange as it might seem at first glance. The American "new year" starts in January, but the new "school year" starts in September, and many businesses have "fiscal years" that start at various times of the year. Similarly, the Jewish calendar has different starting points for different purposes.

    The names of the months of the Jewish calendar were adopted during the time of Ezra, after the return from the Babylonian exile. The names are actually Babylonian month names, brought back to Israel by the returning exiles. Note that most of the Bible refers to months by number, not by name.
     
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  3. JohnDB

    JohnDB Staff Member Moderator

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    Right... which gets confusing when trying to figure out what calendar that they are using. So the first month could be the 7th.
     
  4. JohnDB

    JohnDB Staff Member Moderator

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    And ONE other point to make.

    If you base your assumptions upon the Gospel of Luke...
    To Whom did Luke write his Gospel to?
    Hint: It wasn't the Jews...
     
  5. Douglas Summers

    Douglas Summers Member

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    The Gospel of Luke was written primarily to the Greek, pointing out Christ's humanity as "The Son of Man", His Human/Divine nature. His genealogy given by Luke traces Him back to Adam, showing His concern for lost humanity, even as Matthew is written primarily to the Jew as, "King of Israel" as ".Son of David", His genealogy traces Him to King David, being born in Bethlehem (the city of David).
     
  6. JohnDB

    JohnDB Staff Member Moderator

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    And what calendar did the Greek/Romans use?
     
  7. jasonc

    jasonc Member

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    The one at the time in use by ceaser,Julian calender,not to be confused the military one in use today.the day would be a number.or Feb 1 is 32
     
  8. Douglas Summers

    Douglas Summers Member

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    What is your point?
     
  9. JohnDB

    JohnDB Staff Member Moderator

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    That Luke was Greek and his audience was Greek and that he used a calendar that they were familiar with. Not a calendar they were unfamiliar with.
     
  10. Douglas Summers

    Douglas Summers Member

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    But many of the Greek were converts to Judaism as were a multitude of other countries (Acts 2:1-13) They all went by the Jewish calendar. They had to, because they kept the Jewish Feast days according to the Jewish calendar. He wrote as the Spirit lead him. All Scripture is God breathed. In the oldest manuscripts, Luke wrote "Passover" not Easter, which is well documented. All feast days in Luke's writings are according to Jewish calendar. Luke was either a Jew or a proselyte. No where does it prove Luke was a Gentile.
     
  11. JohnDB

    JohnDB Staff Member Moderator

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    I can say Chinese New Year but that doesn't have any meaning for me except that it is a Chinese custom. Same as Luke mentioning Passover. Just like American Buddhist do not adopt the Chinese calendar not do we Christians use the Jewish Levitical nor Jewish Civil calendar.
    And I'm searching for a source that claims that Luke was Jewish and can't find a one. I've found dozens that says he was Greek/Roman writing to Greek/Romans. Can you please provide one that says Luke was Jewish?
    Or possibly a source that shows where Paul or others promoted following the Jewish feast days and festivals?
     
  12. brujaq

    brujaq Member

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    The shepherds were still in their fields at night with their flocks when the heavenly host appeared which suggests it wasn't winter or too cold weather set in yet .. Others calculate Zechariah's time of duty in the temple and John's birth as somewhat a time table according to Jesus birth .. I think also leads to the fall of the year .. It's been a while since I went over it .. But anytime we gather in Jesus name to adore and worship is the right time, Dec 25 works too.. Of course Jesus was crucified Passover or in preparation of ..
    Good stuff FHG
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
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  13. for_his_glory

    for_his_glory Member

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    We can go back and forth forever on these issues as interesting as they are, as no matter what a certain day may represent in a pagan or Christian world we as a child of God celebrate and worship Christ every day of the year. :sohappy
     
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  14. JohnDB

    JohnDB Staff Member Moderator

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    Summers are too dry to set flocks to pasture. However there are rains and heavy heavy dews in the fall/winter with warm enough temps for things to grow. This is below Sea Level off the Mediteranian (my spelling sucks) and American climate doesn't apply. It does somewhat apply at the higher elevations as Mt Hermon regularly has snow. But Bethlehem in Judea is farther south and very low in elevation.

    I highly recommend looking at an almanac for Israel.
     
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  15. JohnDB

    JohnDB Staff Member Moderator

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    Of course you are right.
    And I agree with you on this.
     
  16. Douglas Summers

    Douglas Summers Member

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    I can't prove that he was Jewish, just like you can't prove he was a Gentile. But to be within the close circle of friends with the Apostles and and Mary would make him either a proselyte or Jewish. The Gentile alone was never in the inner circle. He is called beloved (Col. 4:14).
     
  17. JohnDB

    JohnDB Staff Member Moderator

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    When looking at research and papers like these...
    Look at the sources.
    Look at the sole conclusions rendered from true facts. Many of these papers would be rejected out of hand due to non-controversial facts by the Early Writing Church Fathers. (They argued a lot about theological positions, mostly millennial reign.) But some things said as "side information" wasn't really ever contested.

    Tradition holds that Luke was a doctor/learned man of Greek/Roman descent who came from Southern Asia (Turkey) and was commissioned to write (or thought it would sell) about Jesus.
    News about Jesus would have easily made it to Luke's home. Especially since Jesus was often resting in the Tetriarch Phillip's territory. (And Herod wanted to meet Jesus...who didn't want to meet Herod)

    Some have argued that the "Greeks" who wanted to meet Jesus shortly before his crucifixion included Luke. Just as the man running naked through the streets in Mark was likely Mark himself.

    Also...
    Definitive conclusions are not usually done by anthropologist or archeologist. Especially as thin as proof as some of these writers are using.

    Especially the one claiming that Luke wrote Hebrews. :nono

    There's a ton of stuff out there written by guys who appear to have pedigrees. But then upon scrutiny we learn all kinds of not so good stuff about their work and sources and conclusions.
    It takes a lot of time to go through this stuff. When the traditional and boring truths are often the real truth all along.
     
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  18. Soul man

    Soul man Member

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    I have never felt that Paul wrote Hebrews (like it matters what I feel) a buddy believes it was Bartholomew, and he gave his reasons which were good at the time. I can't remember what he said about it now, it's been a few years.
    But my take is, we know it was inspired as the rest were, so I leave it at that, you bring interesting points though.
     
  19. Douglas Summers

    Douglas Summers Member

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    Here is the real truth DB. The body of Christ is being kicked to the curb by heretics, religious bigots, cults, universities, and the Government. No one wants to listen to SOUND (the truth) doctrine (as commissioned to the Apostles by Christ) (John 17:14-23) and the converts. Christ said this would happen (2 Tim. 4:1-7). Here is the Gospel: The kingdom and Jesus Christ, and in between that, the gospel has been picked to pieces, adding and subtracting their own doctrines. The only martyrs you hear defending the Gospel are in foreign countries, and yet, our country has become a wild tree for every unclean bird to rest in it's branches. What that means is, the gospel of Jesus Christ that started with simple faith (mustard seed) has grown in to a wild tree so that the unclean can enter the church and not fear to cease from sin, even to the point of bringing sin into the visible church as normal behavior. There WILL be a judgement! But they fear it not!
    REPORT: President Trump declares religious freedom in the USA. That the Church and the family values in our country make a great society. The government is not allowed to target religious organizations. And we will say Merry Christmas. For we do not worship the Government, but we worship God. 9:45 a.m. 10/13/20017. We will defend our faith and protect our nation.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2017
  20. JohnDB

    JohnDB Staff Member Moderator

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    Yeah I know the proof he is speaking of...it was on the header of an old manuscript... almost burned by a young apprentice. And I keep forgetting if it was Barnabas or Bartholomew.
     
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