Church sans Tribulation

[netchaplain]

For those in Christ, there hasn’t been and will never be a general tribulation such as will involve the world (majority of society). This sense is in reference to the eschatological tribulation which contains “things which must shortly come to pass” (Rev 1:1). These “things” are not difficulties which believers endure that derive from the oppositions of men, but from the judgment from God, which answers to why children of God (e.g. those in Christ, which excludes any in the OT) are never seen in Scripture to encounter judgment of any kind—they being ever absent of it in the Lord Jesus (Rom 8:1).
NC

​

​

Church sans Tribulation​

Not only is the Church a product of this specific age with no relation whatsoever to any other age (after the OT and prior to Rev 20:4), but each believer is perfectly accepted now and forever before God on the ground of his position in Christ, and, being saved out of this cosmos world, he is no more of this world than Christ is of this world (John 15:18, 19; 17:14, 16).

The coming tribulation is the judgment of this world. Israel has her part in it since, being not yet saved (Ro 11:26), she is of the world (cf. Mat 13:44). The believer, being what he is in Christ, has no more a rightful place in this world’s judgments than Christ Himself or even any unfallen angel. Back of the theories that the Church will enter or pass through the tribulation is the Arminian heresy that the believer contributes something to his own acceptance before God, and, having failed to some extent in this responsibility, he will be purged and purified by the suffering which the tribulation affords.

There is a line of truth which concerns the believer’s personal faithfulness; but this is consummated before Christ at His judgment seat in heaven. As for any condemnation, or other judgment, the Christian is wholly delivered forever on the most righteous ground that a Substitute bore the condemnation and judgment and has provided a perfect standing before God. It is established by Scripture that the believer is delivered from all condemning judgments (John 3:18; 5:24; Rom 5:1; 8:1, 33, 34; 1 Cor 11:31, 32).

In general, those who contend that the Church will experience the tribulation assert that all believers—spiritual and unspiritual, will enter that period of suffering, though there are those believing in a partial rapture who assert that the Church will be divided and the spiritual element, which always includes those who advance this notion, will go directly to heaven, while the unspiritual will suffer for their sins in the tribulation.

This constitutes a Protestant purgatory. The answer to all such conceptions is the recognition of the truth that, when members of this sinful race go to heaven, it is not on the ground of their own merit, but only through the merit of Christ. It is to be remembered that each believer is already perfectly justified forever (Rom 5:1; 8:30, 33, 34; Heb 10:14), and this wholly within the range of divine justice (Rom 3:26). Thus the contention that the Church will enter or pass through the tribulation becomes and insult to, and unbelief towards (though ignorantly—NC) the measureless grace of God in His Beloved Son.

Those who entertain the idea that the Church experiences the great tribulation must reckon with the fact that of upwards of seventy-five generations (almost 2000 years) who comprise that company, all but the present generation have entered Glory without the supposed benefits of that purging experience. Why, then, should the last generation suffer that from which the vast host have been spared?

On this point a specious argument has been advanced, namely, that as the Church has suffered martyrdom in certain periods of her history she may be expected to suffer thus again at the end of her age; but back of this claim is the failure to recognize that past sufferings were due to the attack of wicked men upon the Church, while the great tribulation is God’s judgment upon wicked men. Wholly justified believers have no place among evil men who are destined to eternal doom.

- L S Chafer





Excerpt from MJS devotional for September 7:

“We are to draw nigh in faith where we already are in position.” - MJS

"Instead of the priest coming out to bless, as in Judaism, we are to go in for blessing. There are no barriers now. The Father has removed every hindrance and now it is for me to go in and abide. The teachers of Christendom have practically stitched up the veil which He rent. The rent veil in the Gospels is the Father’s coming out, but the rent veil in Hebrews is the believer’s going in." -J.B.S.
http://www.abideabove.com/hungry-heart/

 

[Jim Parker]

Wishful thinking

 

[for_his_glory]

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Church, which represents the bride of Christ, will face seeing much tribulation as it will be hard to bare seeing Gods wrath poured out on the unjust as we are sent out to preach to them before we enter into the kingdom of God. There are many false teachings that teach we are taken out of here before some seven year Great Tribulation, but there is no scripture that speaks of a seven year Great Tribulation. Some also teach that after Rev Chapter 4 the Church is no longer here on earth. If this were the case then why did Jesus say that those who endure until the end will be saved. The end of what, the end of days or as scripture calls it that great and terrible day of the Lord when final judgment will be passed as the Sheep are separated from the goats and the goats are cast into the lake of fire with Satan, the beast and false prophets.

By studying all the scriptures below in Revelations I come to the conclusion we will see much tribulation, but not to fear what must come, but stand strong in the faith of Christ Jesus so we can endure until the coming of the Lord and be His witnesses as a faithful servant until He returns. God's wrath is not for the elect of God as they are kept from it falling on them and when we see the abomination that causes desolation, Daniel Chater 7; Matthew 24:15-22; Rev Chapter 13, we are to flee from taking its mark as we stand in the Holy place which is our faith in Christ that we need not fear that which has to come first before Christ returns, Matthew 10:28, but that we need to be prepared as His Bride when He does return on the last day and destroys the beast and false prophet at His coming, Rev 19.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God

Mat 24:13,29-31 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is telling us to watch for the signs of His coming and to overcome so that our names are not blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

Rev 5:13; 6:17; 7:1-5 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days as God's wrath begins with the opening of the seventh seal

Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were, which means those of the elect of God who refuse to take the mark of the beast and will die a martyr's death for their faith in Christ.

Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation is the fullness of the Gentiles who also died a martyr's death for the sake of Christ

Rev 8:13 Three woes are that of warning the people on earth that the last three trumpets are about to sound

Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about mystery Babylon ruling the world again as a one world government. 666 represents action of the hands and thoughts of the mind

Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children who are still alive at this time as they are being protected against the vial judgments that will fall on those who have rejected Christ.

Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. The elect of God are told to watch for the return of Christ as He comes like a theif and we are to keep our garments clean and not found in shame

Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation through the persecution of the revived Roman Empire and Christ is about to return for His Bride

Rev 19:7,8 We being the Bride of Christ have now made ourselves ready for His coming as those who are still alive at this time and asleep in the grave have endured until the last day when Christ returns and destroys the beast and false prophet and sends His angels out to gather the Bride up to meet Jesus in the air.

Rev 20:4-6 These verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured until Jesus came back in the clouds for us

Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth

 

[ezra]

is the Arminian heresy

tell me more about this heresy and why you feel it is . i will say in study i am between pre and mid trib..probably more mid trib than pre .i could be wrong you could be wrong. we all could be wrong . it will happen the way The LORD intends it to happen

 

[netchaplain]

By studying all the scriptures below in Revelations I come to the conclusion we will see much tribulation,

Thanks for the lengthy reply and comments! I think it helps to differentiate between personal and general tribulation. The former is what believers encounter due to "taking up your cross." The latter is what the article is about, which is the eschatological tribulation referred to as "the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (3:10).

Though I do not believe the Church will be on the earth during this time, I think it may be a time that others will become believers and be resurrected along with those in "the first resurrection" (Rev 20:4). There's not much advantage nor necessity in my opinion to apply a chronology to this resurrection, considering "no man knows the day nor the hour" (Mat 24:36), and I think Scripture is not plainly clear enough for conclusive determinations of most of the Book of Revelation.

God bless!

 

[netchaplain]

tell me more about this heresy and why you feel it is . i will say in study i am between pre and mid trib..probably more mid trib than pre .i could be wrong you could be wrong. we all could be wrong . it will happen the way The LORD intends it to happen

Hi EZ, and God's blessings to your Family! Myself, learning what Arminianism teaches on this issue is a recent discovery, so I haven't spent much time researching it. I did find some interesting information on this on Wikipedia though. I appears that Jacob Arminian may have not been an OSAS believer and this may have overlapped his understanding on other significant issues challenging the completeness of the believer in Christ.

Here is Wikipedia’s information on Jacob Arminian’s view:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism#cite_note-Works_of_Armini...

Look at bottom under “Notes” at number 29. Here’s the jest of it:

"Although Arminius denied having taught final apostasy in his Declaration of Sentiments, in the Examination of the Treatise of Perkins on the Order and Mode of Predestination he writes that a person who is being 'built' into the church of Christ may resist the continuation of this process. Concerning the believers, 'It may suffice to encourage them, if they know that no power or prudence can dislodge them from the rock, unless they of their own will forsake their position.' [Works of Arminius, 3:455, cf. 1:667]

A believing member of Christ may become slothful, give place to sin, and gradually die altogether, ceasing to be a member. [Works of Arminius, 3:458] The covenant of God (Jeremiah 23) 'does not contain in itself an impossibility of defection from God, but a promise of the gift of fear, whereby they shall be hindered from going away from God so long as that shall flourish in their hearts.' If there is any consistency in Arminius' position, he did not seem to deny the possibility of falling away" (Paul and Apostasy, 16).

 

[ezra]

Hi EZ, and God's blessings to your Family! Myself, learning what Arminianism teaches on this issue is a recent discovery, so I haven't spent much time researching it. I did find some interesting information on this on Wikipedia though. I appears that Jacob Arminian may have not been an OSAS believer and this may have overlapped his understanding on other significant issues challenging the completeness of the believer in Christ.

Here is Wikipedia’s information on Jacob Arminian’s view:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism#cite_note-Works_of_Armini...

Look at bottom under “Notes” at number 29. Here’s the jest of it:

"Although Arminius denied having taught final apostasy in his Declaration of Sentiments, in the Examination of the Treatise of Perkins on the Order and Mode of Predestination he writes that a person who is being 'built' into the church of Christ may resist the continuation of this process. Concerning the believers, 'It may suffice to encourage them, if they know that no power or prudence can dislodge them from the rock, unless they of their own will forsake their position.' [Works of Arminius, 3:455, cf. 1:667]

A believing member of Christ may become slothful, give place to sin, and gradually die altogether, ceasing to be a member. [Works of Arminius, 3:458] The covenant of God (Jeremiah 23) 'does not contain in itself an impossibility of defection from God, but a promise of the gift of fear, whereby they shall be hindered from going away from God so long as that shall flourish in their hearts.' If there is any consistency in Arminius' position, he did not seem to deny the possibility of falling away" (Paul and Apostasy, 16).

i am aware of the difference between calvinism and Arminianism these two was just men and subject to error. while many parts of Calvinism i do not agree with . i stick with my Bible i read what others believe and look at the scripture .good and bad in all

 

[ezra]

A believing member of Christ may become slothful, give place to sin, and gradually die altogether, ceasing to be a member. [Works of Arminius, 3:458] The covenant of God (Jeremiah 23) 'does not contain in itself an impossibility of defection from God, but a promise of the gift of fear, whereby they shall be hindered from going away from God so long as that shall flourish in their hearts.' If there is any consistency in Arminius' position, he did not seem to deny the possibility of falling away" (Paul and Apostasy, 16).

this ill open a can of worms up

 

[Conqueror]

............... a promise of the gift of fear, whereby they shall be hindered from going away from God................. .

Chapter and verse please for the "gift of fear"?

Emotions are what makes an individual,
even the Holy Spirit emotes by grieving (Eph 4:30).

If the word of God makes sufficient impact,
then the REACTION of the born-again should be the fear of God.

That fear of God however is lacking in nearly all
for the word of God has been watered down
by the devil with poisonous tares (Mat 13:25).




.

 

[netchaplain]

i am aware of the difference between calvinism and Arminianism these two was just men and subject to error.

Well put and thanks!

 

[netchaplain]

Chapter and verse please for the "gift of fear"?

Hi and thanks for your reply! I'm not sure of the author's meaning myself here. I have an idea but do not think it's worth commenting.

That fear of God however is lacking in nearly all
for the word of God has been watered down by the devil with poisonous tares (Mat 13:25)..

I appreciate you mentioning this and your respect concerning it, but, and not challenging your comment, I think it is not commonly known what is meant by "fear" in the phrase "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom" (Psa 111:10).

The word "fear" has two meanings: To be afraid; To respect or revere. It's my understanding that the latter definition is the intent, because there is nothing to be afraid of with God for those who desire to be His. But for those who choose to be unbelievers there is everything of which to be afraid, which is not wisdom but continued "foolishness" (Psa 14:1; 53:1).

Greek definitions:
1. fear, terror, fearing

A. fear, terror
B. awesome or terrifying thing (object causing fear)
C. fear (of God), respect, reverence, piety
D. revered
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H3374&t=KJV

Blessings!

 

[for_his_glory]

I onced believed in a pretrib rapture of the church until I took all those supporting scriptures they like to use and found nothing about any pretrib rapture of the church. Revelations is not that hard to understand as when you really study it you find that it is not only one book of the Bible, but all the books of the Bible collected within it's pages.

 

[Christ_empowered]

i don't know. I don't understand why pretrib seems be a more modern thing, especially in the US, but previous generations of solid Christians had genuine faith and they believed differently.

 

[netchaplain]

I onced believed in a pretrib rapture of the church until I took all those supporting scriptures they like to use and found nothing about any pretrib rapture of the church. Revelations is not that hard to understand as when you really study it you find that it is not only one book of the Bible, but all the books of the Bible collected within it's pages.

I suppose to assimilate it we would need to present Scripture-related passages and work from them.

 

[for_his_glory]

I suppose to assimilate it we would need to present Scripture-related passages and work from them.

Yes, as their favorite vs for support is Rev 4:1, 2 that has nothing to do with a pretrib rapture, but only John being caught up in the Spirit, not caught up to heaven. After this in vs 1 means after that of the messages given to the seven Churches in Asia John hears a voice from heaven to come up and see things which must be hereafter. Immediately he was in the Spirit, just like that of Rev 1:10 while being a prisoner on the isle of Patmos. He was never caught up to heaven as no man has ever gone up to heaven, but only Jesus that came down from heaven, John 3:13.

 

[for_his_glory]

i don't know. I don't understand why pretrib seems be a more modern thing, especially in the US, but previous generations of solid Christians had genuine faith and they believed differently.

That's because it was never taught before the 1800's as it was only a theory. Margaret MacDonald in Port Glasgow, Scotland in the 1800’s had a vision of a pretrib rapture, but she felt that the vision felt dark and evil as an untruth. When telling others of her vision many preachers ran with it as being true and started teaching their theories on pretrib rapture. There theories were handed down to us through such men as J.N. Darby, Edward Irving, C.I. Lewis and many others to present day. Notice the word theory. Theory is just the carnal minds way of interpreting something.

 

[netchaplain]

Yes, as their favorite vs for support is Rev 4:1, 2 that has nothing to do with a pretrib rapture, but only John being caught up in the Spirit, not caught up to heaven.

Yes, that is scripturally clear and I agree, but how does one relate that to the tribulation chronology? Thanks.

 

[ezra]

Yes, that is scripturally clear and I agree, but how does one relate that to the tribulation chronology? Thanks.

we dont we really can not prove time of the rapture pre trib mid trib or after trib even though i cant see the church going through the great tribulation

 

[Conqueror]

Chapter and verse please for the "gift of fear"?

Emotions are what makes an individual,
even the Holy Spirit emotes by grieving (Eph 4:30).

If the word of God makes sufficient impact,
then the REACTION of the born-again should be the fear of God.

That fear of God however is lacking in nearly all
for the word of God has been watered down
by the devil with poisonous tares (Mat 13:25).

.

Hi and thanks for your reply! I'm not sure of the author's meaning myself here. I have an idea but do not think it's worth commenting.


I appreciate you mentioning this and your respect concerning it, but, and not challenging your comment, I think it is not commonly known what is meant by "fear" in the phrase "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom" (Psa 111:10).

The word "fear" has two meanings: To be afraid; To respect or revere. It's my understanding that the latter definition is the intent, because there is nothing to be afraid of with God for those who desire to be His. But for those who choose to be unbelievers there is everything of which to be afraid, which is not wisdom but continued "foolishness" (Psa 14:1; 53:1).

Blessings!

Wisdom shall be added unto you,
which is access to the Father
through the powerful presence of the Holy Spirit.

therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light (Mat 6:22 NKJV).

But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness,
and all these things shall be added to you (Mat 6:33 NKJV).

Therefore the fear of the Lord isn't the beginning of wisdom !!!!!
The beginning of wisdom lies in turning to Jesus to receive life (John 5:39)


the gospel of God which He promised before
through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures (Rom 1:1-2 NKJV).

That excludes Psalms for David wasn't a prophet !!!!!


.

 

[netchaplain]

we dont we really can not prove time of the rapture pre trib mid trib or after trib even though i cant see the church going through the great tribulation

True, Jesus said the time of His coming is only known by the Father (Mat 24:36).