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churches and big government

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jasoncran

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According to a recent survey states sweden,denmark and countries with big government the tendency of the citizens not to attend church. This because of the state does much of the helping of the poor that church should and if able do I believe in helping our fellow man, as jesus did and its great way to reach the lost, and also most churches in america do benevolence( what i just said above), but its spent ( given)wisely, no i'm not saying that welfare should be done away with, while i like to see the church take over that, but unless God moves miracously in this area the government will have to do it. Many churches who do benevoleces also have some christian centered divorce recovery, aa or na.

Jason

I'll add more on this later, and i believe that helping our fellow man should be voluntary not compulsory as if u sacrifice the time,money, energy u will be blessed. interesting read http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=3400

this is the artice on the survey http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=11845
 
I think it would be good to get churches more involved in the welfare system, but for them to take over completely, I don't think so.
 
Nick_29 said:
I think it would be good to get churches more involved in the welfare system, but for them to take over completely, I don't think so.
In america before the great society (president lbj) thats how it was done, its feasible if Jesus wants us to, and even in the early church the apostles did that, ie food tables for the poor and widows.

Jason
 
nick what if the big government states go bankrupt or in a war with another country and are conquered and the new government doesnt care, who then do we as christians turn to Jesus, God likes us to rely on him and sometimes only he can fix it, even with any Obama promises that work, they wont fix everything and Jesus is able to supply needs, I've been poor see my earlier post on that in should social security go away. do u believe in miracles

Jason
 
jasoncran said:
nick what if the big government states go bankrupt or in a war with another country and are conquered and the new government doesnt care, who then do we as christians turn to Jesus, God likes us to rely on him and sometimes only he can fix it, even with any Obama promises that work, they wont fix everything and Jesus is able to supply needs, I've been poor see my earlier post on that in should social security go away. do u believe in miracles

Jason
Yes I do believe in miracles. But remember God can work through people, I'm sure you know that. He can work through the government.

But remember this thread is about church in the welfare system. Let's not go over 'big bad governmetn' again. We've got a separate thread for that ;).
 
yes , i know that but the study states that church attendence is lower in countries that have cradle to grave care, and that is how it relates, i will however focus the church and what it can do. I believe that the church can do more as it needs to stop bickering with other demonations and show the love of christ, and more would be drawn in jesus, and be saved.

Jason
 
Churches are created by governments these days.

Corporations are seen as artificial persons that can do many of the things individuals do (own property, copyrights, enter into contracts, enter into lawsuits, etc.) In the U.S., they come into existence by the approval of state governments.

501(c)3 charters are submitted to states for approval when a "group" wants to become a corporation. Otherwise they typically call themselves a "meeting" -- Prayer meeting or Bible Study or something other than a "church". They don't have to pay taxes in the same manner as other "artificial persons" if they are non-profit and don't have to pay taxes at all on cash donations, but it is the state that creates them.

Although I'm certain that this is not the actual thrust of the thread, I just thought I'd mention it. I have mixed feelings about how much control corporate churches should have in secular government. Governments (especially Republics or Democracies) are in place to govern their citizens of which Christians are a part. I do think that our laws should reflect our good conscience but would stop short from saying that the church should be in control.

I want to see One Church - the called out ones. If we are "called out" to be a people who are separate and apart, why would we then want to insert ourselves into man's government to exert control? It's probably beyond the scope of this thread to consider Paul's example but he availed himself of the rights afforded him as a Roman citizen but actually considered him a member of the Kingdom of God.

I think the real reason attendance falls in the churches the study cites is because the people there have turned their eye away from seeking God. Lord, bless us.... but not so much that we turn from You and call our bank accounts our security, making money our god.

~Sparrowhawke
 
Thanks, I did look at your links - and was editing as you posted. Sry!

I agree with you that Churches would be better served (as would all of us) if they had the same heart of compassion toward widows, orphans, toward the poor and needy as our Father does. I doubt that shifting dependence from welfare to church charity (without an outpouring of the Holy Spirit) will do much in the long run.

In other words, Christians have been given two commandments. Love God with your whole heart and Love man as you love yourself (love your brother even as I have loved you.)

Trying to treat a problem that is created by a lack or insufficiency of love of God by repairing it with man to man love is a good idea, but ONLY if the real problem is addressed. I don't trust the authors of the study you quoted because they fail to see what is happening - that is not to say that they are not good servants though. Moses was a servant but we need to stay focused on becoming Sons. The difference is one of understanding the purpose of our Father.
 
Sparrowhawke said:
Thanks, I did look at your links - and was editing as you posted. Sry!
I have been seeing that anyway when i did this post and i believe it was the devil trying to block me from stating that truth, and on a related thought prayers on being removed in school ,if the church back then and now got on its knees and lived for Jesus we could change society if the Lord wills, souls saved not a social gospel( you'll never hear me say that).

In the time of acts, the Roman lifestyle was a lot like today culturally, and lookl at what the apostles did then, i think it was that they believed in Jesus and fasted and sought him with a whole heart, really its that simple just read acts and see for yourself. Pray for me to live the life as i fall miserbly short.

Jason

www.breakpoint.org is a good organization and i try to listen to chuck colson weekly and daily if i can. He has a radio broadcast.
 
jasoncran said:
Sparrowhawke said:
Thanks, I did look at your links - and was editing as you posted. Sry!
I have been seeing that anyway when i did this post and i believe it was the devil trying to block me from stating that truth, and on a related thought prayers on being removed in school ,if the church back then and now got on its knees and lived for Jesus we could change society if the Lord wills, souls saved not a social gospel( you'll never hear me say that).

In the time of acts, the Roman lifestyle was a lot like today culturally, and lookl at what the apostles did then, i think it was that they believed in Jesus and fasted and sought him with a whole heart, really its that simple just read acts and see for yourself. Pray for me to live the life as i fall miserbly short.

Jason

http://www.breakpoint.org is a good organization and i try to listen to chuck colson weekly and daily if i can. He has a radio broadcast.
:amen I agree with your prayer that you live the life - but only if you agree same for me too - for the same reason, I fall miserably short. We are told to pray always - and I used to pray a whole lot more than I do now - but still, that aside - we can call Jesus for the amen to our prayers, yes?
 
Nick_29 said:
just got a question: how would the churches get the funding?
Gifts of love, freely given.

If we set ourselves into an ideal time, even the heathen will see the love that one Christian has for another. They would be curious about it and Christians would be delivered up to worldly authorities and the Holy Spirit would witness through them (through us?) to the world governments and kings.

Those who have horded wealth would open their coffers -- but first must come our Love for God more than anything else - then we can be molded into what we are called to be - I don't know what that is, but we will be like HIM.

Hey! Wait. The Kingdom of heaven is at hand! I don't know yet how to reconcile the truth of what I hear within the promise and my stubborn, unfaithful, idolatrous heart. OH! maybe I do. Maybe we all do.
 
Sparrowhawke said:
Nick_29 said:
just got a question: how would the churches get the funding?
Gifts of love, freely given.

If we set ourselves into an ideal time, even the heathen will see the love that one Christian has for another. They would be curious about it and Christians would be delivered up to worldly authorities and the Holy Spirit would witness through them (through us?) to the world governments and kings.

Those who have horded wealth would open their coffers -- but first must come our Love for God more than anything else - then we can be molded into what we are called to be - I don't know what that is, but we will be like HIM.

Hey! Wait. The Kingdom of heaven is at hand! I don't know yet how to reconcile the truth of what I hear within the promise and my stubborn, unfaithful, idolatrous heart. OH! maybe I do. Maybe we all do.
that doesn't really answer my question on how will they get the money?
 
Nick_29 said:
that doesn't really answer my question on how will they get the money?
I'm confused. There were two links -- one link was about 250 churches and synagogues (and their "vast resources") in Ottawa County in Michigan. The other link referred to a study that compared "churches" in countries such as Denmark and Sweden to those in countries like the U.S. and the Philippines. Actually I think they were comparing countries and drawing false conclusions but that's beside the point.

The one about a 1998 response to the Governor's challenge didn't go into much detail about Project Zero funding, I'd assume it was state funded. The article only cited a single example stating that one family rec'd a $600 dollar loan from church volunteers which was later paid back.

The other (the one about the study) didn't mention money directly and didn't address your question. Typically funds are gathered by non-profits primarily from donations.
 
Sparrowhawke said:
Nick_29 said:
that doesn't really answer my question on how will they get the money?
I'm confused. There were two links -- one link was about 250 churches and synagogues (and their "vast resources") in Ottawa County in Michigan. The other link referred to a study that compared "churches" in countries such as Denmark and Sweden to those in countries like the U.S. and the Philippines. Actually I think they were comparing countries and drawing false conclusions but that's beside the point.

The one about a 1998 response to the Governor's challenge didn't go into much detail about Project Zero funding, I'd assume it was state funded. The article only cited a single example stating that one family rec'd a $600 dollar loan from church volunteers which was later paid back.

The other (the one about the study) didn't mention money directly and didn't address your question. Typically funds are gathered by non-profits primarily from donations.
on the links theres also sources of the story, later i'll have time to look at those and comment.

Nick, many churches, in America, tithe and recieve offering to do things and how do you Nick raise money, in Churches, in Australia, ie for needs and other things.

Jason
 
jasoncran said:
how do you Nick raise money, in Churches, in Australia, ie for needs and other things.
well people who go to the churches give money, but that's not enough to support the community at all. our church has a yearly budget of $1.5 million, but we support at least 8-10 overseas missionaries plus day-to-day running of the church, plus we also pay for the pastors' salaries, plus anything for a church project etc.
And I'm sure we're one of the better funded curches in the area.

Churches would have to recieve lots more funding.
 
Note in the in the book of acts those who had wealth sold their possesions and gave to the church all, this was done voluntarily. That could be done today if a wealthy wanted to, yes it would take much to do so, but many souls would be blessed and saved, if the Lord was behind it, will it happen that way not sure, but at the very least that could be an option to do that, the Lord is able to touch hearts that way.

Even so, any church, could make a difference by giving and doing what they can, pray ,fast,give etc,

Nick, in America, many christain radios, are listener supported, ie run on donations, look at these stations in Florida i listen to http://www.reachfm.org, or wscf(can't remember that website) maybe its christianfm.org.

The former covers 60% of the State Of Florida, and even some from Japan or other areas listen to them. So if Jesus wills this its possible.


Only prayer and seeking the Lord shall we find out,

let's pray on this

Jason
 
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