Cigarette Smoking Christians

[reba]

I am fully aware of this. But the point is that I can get all these anti-oxidants from other sources. This argument is not about pizza - I can fully understand that pizza is "healthy" for some people. I was just answering PizzaGuy's question and trying to make a joke.

Well Drew i was kidding you a bit with the pizza.

I have my view you have yours good day to you.

 

[Mike]

You appear to believe that its "OK" for people to disagree on what sin is. Well, its not, really. Yes, we all the right to our opinions, but surely you realize that you don't have "your truth" and I do not have "my truth".

Also your line of argument seems to be that its legalism to have a list of "do's and don'ts". Well how does that work? Do you not have a "list" of do's and don'ts? I do. Here are some of the things on my "don't" list:

Murder
Adultery
Lying
Theft

Do you not also have a "list" with these things (if not others)?

Drew, of course there is absolute Truth. One is right and one is wrong. I would say Exodus 20 makes your examples very clear.

My diet is extremely healthy - and I can say this with confidence. It has not always been that way, but it is now. Once I fully realized that my body is a temple, I started to take very good care of it.

No junk food (none) - no candy, no cake, no soda pop (except perhaps one diet pop in a month). No white bread. No caffeine. Almost no red meat (maybe once a month). Very low sugar intake - no sugar added to anything. No processed foods, no fast food.

Drew, are you treating your body PERFECTLY healthy? Your post I quoted from here is about the most legalistic one I think I've ever read here on CFnet. That one diet pop a month? Almost no read meat? Pizza?

 

[stovebolts]

Hey Drew,

Imagine the thoughts and discussions of the Sages the first time Yom Kippur, or Passover fell on a Sabbath

 

[Happymommyof4]

I myself am not a smoker. I would never judge someone who does, because in fact I have been known to enjoy a burger from Mcdonalds. Ha

I choose not to, because I don't care for the smell and I have an addictive personality, why chance it?

Is it a sin? Ask God.

 

[jasoncran]

so is weightlifting and taking supplements that in the long term causes injury.

one can exercise too much.

and no i dont call process foods a sin.

if that the case then many a single mothers who dont have the time to cook are in sin.

 

[Free]

Drew, are you treating your body PERFECTLY healthy? Your post I quoted from here is about the most legalistic one I think I've ever read here on CFnet. That one diet pop a month? Almost no read meat? Pizza?

Let's be careful with this since Drew was asked how good his diet was. He simply answered the question and has already admitted that he isn't perfectly healthy.

I am 5 feet 11 and weigh 165 pounds. If Free reads this (he has met me in person), yes I have lost weight since we met.

For some reason I thought you were taller, close to my height. Are you shrinking too? At 165, that would make you thinner than when we met, no offense intended, although you weren't overweight by any means. I would have thought you were still on the healthy side of the scale.

My diet is extremely healthy - and I can say this with confidence. It has not always been that way, but it is now. Once I fully realized that my body is a temple, I started to take very good care of it.

No junk food (none) - no candy, no cake, no soda pop (except perhaps one diet pop in a month). No white bread. No caffeine. Almost no red meat (maybe once a month). Very low sugar intake - no sugar added to anything. No processed foods, no fast food.

I eat mountains of green stuff - at dinner I have a salad the size of half a basketball (with a tiny amount of dressing).

Good for you for eating healthy. I remember reading not so long ago that the fat in dressing actually helps absorb nutrients in the salad. Just saying.

I agree in principal but I struggle with how far to take it. Must we necessarily cut out such things as candy, pop, and cake, or can we truly enjoy them once in a while without thinking that we're sinning or profaning our temple?

And even though I have some health issues that may have some connection to past dietary indiscretions, I can confidently say that I feel better as a result of the healthy eating (most likely due to having a very good body weight for my age (52)).

52? I thought you were mid 40's.

 

[Mike]

Let's be careful with this since Drew was asked how good his diet was. He simply answered the question and has already admitted that he isn't perfectly healthy.

But there's a bigger point here that drives our difference in this one example. I compared it earlier on to the accumulation of wealth and material possessions. Drew has always maintained that being wealthy is sinful (sorry if I'm wrong Drew, but that's what I remember). I've said people can be wealthy but still have a heart for the Lord. It's more difficult, but they aren't mutually exclusive. How poor does one need to make himself before he can be deemed "holy"? Same here. Drew says smoking's sinful because it's harmful to the body. A few pages back, I recognized the same flaw in this argument. Where is the line that's drawn between treating the body perfectly and smoking? If someone believes smoking is sinful, it would follow that somewhere before smoking is a line in the sand that separates sinful & not sinful.

I submit this is not a cut and dry, yes or no but that it depends much on the attitude of the person. Does he crave cigarettes to the point that they are inhibiting his relationship with the Lord? Is the Holy Spirit convicting them to stop, yet they are unwilling to respond?

Matthew 15
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-23642">8</sup> “‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-23643">9</sup> They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.’†<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-23644">10</sup> Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-23645">11</sup> What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.â€â€

 

[Pizzaguy]

But there's a bigger point here that drives our difference in this one example. I compared it earlier on to the accumulation of wealth and material possessions. Drew has always maintained that being wealthy is sinful (sorry if I'm wrong Drew, but that's what I remember). I've said people can be wealthy but still have a heart for the Lord. It's more difficult, but they aren't mutually exclusive. How poor does one need to make himself before he can be deemed "holy"? Same here. Drew says smoking's sinful because it's harmful to the body. A few pages back, I recognized the same flaw in this argument. Where is the line that's drawn between treating the body perfectly and smoking? If someone believes smoking is sinful, it would follow that somewhere before smoking is a line in the sand that separates sinful & not sinful.

I submit this is not a cut and dry, yes or no but that it depends much on the attitude of the person. Does he crave cigarettes to the point that they are inhibiting his relationship with the Lord? Is the Holy Spirit convicting them to stop, yet they are unwilling to respond?

This is getting deep.

What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.’â€

Wow. This IS getting deep.

I'm gonna go eat a pizza and enjoy a cigar!

 

[pjt]

<SUP id=en-NIV1984-23644 class=versenum>10</SUP> Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. <SUP id=en-NIV1984-23645 class=versenum>11</SUP> What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.’â€

No one can argue with this!

 

[Drew]

Really. Sure our bodies are holy temples & we shouldn't pollute them. But that's a health issue. What about gluttony?

Obviously gluttony is sin.

 

[Drew]

Drew -

Just for clarity, could one conclude you are saying that if something has no health benefits and only causes harm, it is clearly sin? Or does this just apply to smoking cigarettes?

I am enjoying the dialog on this thread.


Be blessed, Stay blessed!

I would answer "yes" to your question. Any activity which damages the body and is otherwise not beneficial to you or to others would be sin in my view.

 

[Drew]

.....- but I also eat way more greens and fruits/veggies than I once did. I also exercise regularly - that is, almost daily.

Excellent - I would dare to suggest that exercize is simply "good stewardship".

 

[Drew]

For some reason I thought you were taller, close to my height. Are you shrinking too?

I have lost about 25 pounds since we met.

Must we necessarily cut out such things as candy, pop, and cake, or can we truly enjoy them once in a while without thinking that we're sinning or profaning our temple?

I am a little torn on this one. I suggest that many people cannot (or will not) eat such things in moderation. But I would agree that if these things can truly be eaten in moderation, then there is no sin in eating them.

I never intended to come down on the occasional item of junk food. I was asked about my diet. And I find it "easier" to give up all junk than to aim for "moderation".

I do not miss any of that stuff (surprisingly to me, and happily so).

 

[Drew]

<SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV1984-23644>10</SUP> Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NIV1984-23645>11</SUP> What goes into a man’s mouth does not make him ‘unclean,’ but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him ‘unclean.’”

Jesus is specifically addressing the Law of Moses and the issue of "unclean-ness". He is not speaking from a "medical" perspective. I am prepared to argue that "uncleanness" is not really an issue of health, it is something else altogether, having more to do with Israel being set aside as a distinct people. I doubt very much that Jesus is here concerned with issues of "health".

 

[Drew]

Does he crave cigarettes to the point that they are inhibiting his relationship with the Lord?

I suggest that you are falling for the false dualism that sees "the physical" - in this case as manifested by our health - as being of some lesser importance than the "spiritual" (which I think you use the term "relationship with the Lord" to represent). I would say that care of our bodies is part of that relationship with the Lord - the
body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

This "physical - spiritual" distinction is not Biblical - it is more a product of our Greek (Platonic) heritage.

 

[Free]

I have lost about 25 pounds since we met.


I am a little torn on this one. I suggest that many people cannot (or will not) eat such things in moderation.

I think this is getting close to the heart of the matter. Most people here are raised on a diet of processed, fast, fatty and sugary foods. That is the culture that we've all bought into. It becomes too addictive, too comforting. It's like in Super Size Me when the guy starts getting depressed when he hasn't eaten McDonald's and feels on top of the world when he does.

If sweets aren't around, I'm okay. When they are around, I crave them and I can't stop.

I never intended to come down on the occasional item of junk food. I was asked about my diet. And I find it "easier" to give up all junk than to aim for "moderation".

Yes, I knew that was not your intention. That is probably the best way of going about it. Sugar is addictive, particularly when it is of the chocolate variety, and releases endorphins which make us feel good. I can't stop at one bite.

I do not miss any of that stuff (surprisingly to me, and happily so).

That's great. I do hope to get there someday. This is something I have been convicted of in recent times. Now that "they" are saying the caramel coloring can cause cancer, it should help.

 

[Fire_inside21]

Me personally have never smoked and never will, it is an intoxication that ruins your body. I do say that it is a bad thing for a Christian to smoke, but would never call them a sinner for it either.

 

[Chris]

I think cigarettes are disgusting things. Smokingis the height of rudeness to non smoking people around smokers. They should wash the stink out of my clothing they put there grr.

Most smokers I know don't give a rats about others they sit next to you and light up. One sat next to my kids at McDonalds under the no smoking sign smoking next to the kids play equipment full of kids. That day I had a an overwhelming urge not to be normal me and point it out loudly and embarrassingly to the smoker and everyone else what they were doing. ( I just got out of church). Smokers suck they knowingly shorten their lives to leave their children without parents when they need them. Surely every child wants to take their children to their grandparents house, not the graveyard. Thats what is happening to the family across the road from me. Her mum smoked now there is no grandmother for the little girls she died at 50 cancer got her too early, she was a heavy smoker.

Smokers test my love and patience resources to the max.


she died at 40 from lung cancer-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UX2afsTqFI&feature=player_detailpage (I bet you cant watch it to the end. be careful it could stay in your head all day if you do)


I cant understand any intelligent person doing it christian or not.

 

[pjt]

I think cigarettes are disgusting things. Smokingis the height of rudeness to non smoking people around smokers. They should wash the stink out of my clothing they put there grr.

Most smokers I know don't give a rats about others they sit next to you and light up. One sat next to my kids at McDonalds under the no smoking sign smoking next to the kids play equipment full of kids. That day I had a an overwhelming urge not to be normal me and point it out loudly and embarrassingly to the smoker and everyone else what they were doing. ( I just got out of church). Smokers suck they knowingly shorten their lives to leave their children without parents when they need them. Surely every child wants to take their children to their grandparents house, not the graveyard. Thats what is happening to the family across the road from me. Her mum smoked now there is no grandmother for the little girls she died at 50 cancer got her too early, she was a heavy smoker.

Smokers test my love and patience resources to the max.


she died at 40 from lung cancer-

YouTube - The Waitresses I Know What Boys Like (I bet you cant watch it to the end. be careful it could stay in your head all day if you do)


I cant understand any intelligent person doing it christian or not.

Wow, that`s pretty harsh feelings Chris. I can`t feel that way towards smokers. I don`t think you`d ever make it as a missionary in Asia with an attitude like that. There are too many smokers here for you to despise. Interestingly the lung cancer rate is 10 times higher in North America than Japan despite Japan having a MUCH higher smoking rate than North America. Studies showed it may be because of all the green tea Japanese drink which somehow washes out the lungs. Smoking and drinking is everywhere in Japan but the Japanese live longer than most people in the world. So smoking does not necessarily lead one to an early death. Japanese smokers tend to outlive North American nonsmokers. I`ll say that in their defense even though I still would not encourage people to smoke.

Actually there is one form of tobacco that I think smells wonderful and it`s a pipe. I`m a woman so of course I`d never smoke it and don`t feel it matches women at all, but I do love its smell when someone else smokes it. A cigarette or a cigar is a nasty, choking smell to me, but a pipe is very pleasant.

 

[Pizzaguy]

I cant understand any intelligent person doing it christian or not.

On average, smokers are the intellectual "dim bulbs" in the population.

But there are exceptions, I have an electrical engineer friend who has smoked for decades - Christian, too. I can explain it - addiction. We are talking about a very addictive drug here.

On the other hand, my mother quit instantly one day, after a very scary talk with her doctor. She had a powerful will to live (we would see this will lived out in the twenty or so years that followed), and she LISTENED to the doctor, and made up her mind to take control of her own life. I have always been impressed with her for that.