Common Usage?

Discussion in 'Apologetics' started by rstrats, Mar 22, 2017.

  1. rstrats

    rstrats Member

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    The Messiah said that 3 night times would be involved with His time in the "heart of the earth". However, there are those who believe that the Messiah died on the 6th day of the week and who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the time between the leaving of His spirit from His body and His resurrection on the 1st day of the week. But this belief allows for only 2 night times to be involved. To reconcile this discrepancy some say that the Messiah was using common Jewish idiomatic language. I am simply asking for examples to support that assertion; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.



    This topic is essentially directed to those folks who say that it was common at the time to say that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have taken place. A 6th day crucifixion/first day resurrection would be one example. I'm simply looking for other examples to support it's commonality.
     
  2. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    That's what he told the Pharisees ONE TIME and He never gave them a straight answer.
    The rest of the time, (9 times, in fact) scripture says that He raised ON the third day.
    8 of those times Jesus was explaining it to his disciples.
    Mat 16:21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
    Mat 17:23 They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life.” And the disciples were filled with grief
    Mat 20:19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised
    Like 9:22 And he said, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
    Luke 18:33‘The Son of Man must be delivered over to the hands of sinners, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.' ”
    Luke 24:46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day
    Acts 10:40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.

    The third day from Friday (the 6th day) is Sunday, the first day of the week.

    Those who peddle the nonsense that Jesus had to have been crucified on Thursday consistently ignore the preponderance of scripture as well as the witness of the very early church.

    EX:
    Justin Martyr : The First Apology of Justin C.100-162 AD
    But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples,…

    iakof the fool
     
  3. rstrats

    rstrats Member

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    Jim Parker,
    re: "That's what he told the Pharisees ONE TIME..."

    So how many times would you say the Messiah needed to say something before He actually meant it?



    re: "The rest of the time, (9 times, in fact) scripture says that He raised ON the third day."

    And 2 times it says that He would rise AFTER three days - Matthew 27:63 and Mark 8:31.





    re: "The third day from Friday (the 6th day) is Sunday, the first day of the week."


    What would the first day from Friday be?




    But at any rate, those are issues for a different topic.
     
  4. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
    He said "On the third day" eight times when explaining exactly what was going to happen to His disciples.
    The ONE time He said "three days and three nights" was in response to the Pharisees request for a sign. As His enemies, they didn't want to hear what He had to say or know Who He really was and Jesus had no intention of speaking clearly to them. His answer was more in the form of a parable. That one response to the people to whom Jesus did not give clear answers does NOT negate the Eight times He said "ON THE THIRD DAY."

    Jesus had no regard for the pharisees, scribes and Sadducees. He called them hypocrites (Mat 15:7; 22:18; 23:13, 14, 15, 23, 25, 27, 29 plus more examples in the other Gospels) and a brood of vipers. (Mat 12:34) That is why He spoke to them in parables. (Mat 13:10-17) It is unreasonable to assume that He would reveal His purpose to the people who opposed His every move and then tell His disciples something else.

    What is reasonable is that He gave the Pharisees an answer they would not understand and that He explained exactly what was going to take place to His disciples.

    The angel told the women; "Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, that the Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and on the third day rise." (Luke 24:6-7)
    Are you suggesting that the angel also got it wrong?
    At Mat 27:63 it is the Pharisees speaking, NOT Jesus. They were not privy to His plans and were basing their comment on the misleading statement that Jesus gave them about being like Jonah.
    Mark 8:31 does not require that it be understood as three, 24-hour, periods.
    Friday IS the first day.

    Mark reports that Jesus was crucified the day before the Sabbath. The day before the Sabbath (Saturday) is FRIDAY.
    Mark 15:42-43 And when evening had come, since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, Joseph of Arimathe'a, a respected member of the council, who was also himself looking for the kingdom of God, took courage and went to Pilate, and asked for the body of Jesus.

    That is what the earliest writers after the apostles stated.
    The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians C. 50-117 AD, Bishop of Antioch, Chapter IX.—Let Us Live with Christ.
    Ignatius was a contemporary of the Apostles and a disciple of the apostle John.
    At the dawning of the Lord’s day He arose from the dead, according to what was spoken by Himself, “As Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so shall the Son of man also be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” The day of the preparation,(Friday) then, comprises the passion; the Sabbath embraces the burial; (Saturday) the Lord’s Day (Sunday) contains the resurrection.

    So basing any teaching on the Thursday Crucifixion nonsense is basing the teaching on a foundation of sand.
    Those issues are exactly the topic you introduced and a clear demonstration that the basis of your topic is false.
    Your opening statement is : "The Messiah said that 3 night times would be involved with His time in the "heart of the earth". However, there are those who believe that the Messiah died on the 6th day of the week and who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the time between the leaving of His spirit from His body and His resurrection on the 1st day of the week."


    iakov the fool
    (beaucoup dien cai dau)


    DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

     
  5. rstrats

    rstrats Member

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    Christian:
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    Jim Parker,
    re: "Those issues are exactly the topic you introduced..."

    This topic is concerned with only one issue, i.e. - the commonality of forecasting a daytime or a night time being involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could occur. If it were common I simply would like to see examples to support that it was common.
     
  6. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    Christian:
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    That statement fails to communicate your point.

    What do you mean by "forecasting"?
    Who make up the "commonality" of people doing the "forecasting"?
    When could "no part of the daytime or no part of the night time ... occur"?
    What are you talking about?
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
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  7. rstrats

    rstrats Member

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    Christian:
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    Jim Parker,
    re: "What do you mean by 'forecasting'?"
    Saying that something is going to happen in the future.

    re: "Who make up the 'commonality' of people doing the 'forecasting'?"
    Anyone who says that it was common to forecast that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could occur.

    re: "When could 'no part of the daytime or no part of the night time ... occur'?"
    I don't know. That's why I started this topic.

    re: "What are you talking about?"
    The Messiah said that 3 night times would be involved with His time in the "heart of the earth". However, there are those who believe that the Messiah died on the 6th day of the week and who think that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb or at the earliest to the time between the leaving of His spirit from His body and His resurrection on the 1st day of the week. But this belief allows for only 2 night times to be involved. To reconcile this discrepancy some say that the Messiah was using common Jewish figure of speech/colloquial language. I am simply asking for examples to support that assertion; i.e., instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  8. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    Again. The only time that Jesus used the phrase "three days and three nights" was in response to the scribes and pharisees who were demanding a sign of Him. He responded as was His habit to people who didn't really want the truth, with a parable which je followed with two warnings.

    Mat 12:38-42
    Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.” But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
    “For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
    “The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.
    “The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.
     
  9. rstrats

    rstrats Member

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    And once again your comments are with regard to a different issue.
     
  10. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    OK If you say so.
     
  11. rstrats

    rstrats Member

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    Christian:
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    Perhaps someone new looking in will know of examples.
     
  12. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    That would be examples of "instances where a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred."

    Clear as mud but it covers the ground....
     
  13. rstrats

    rstrats Member

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    Christian:
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    Jim Parker,
    re: "Clear as mud..."


    Exactly what is unclear about it?
     
  14. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    It is too vague.
     
  15. Papa Zoom

    Papa Zoom Staff Member Moderator

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    I can't make head or tails of it myself.
     
  16. Jim Parker

    Jim Parker Member

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    That question assumes that you can take any verse totally out of its context and retain its meaning.
    That is incorrect.
     
  17. rstrats

    rstrats Member

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    Now I know you guys are just messing with me.
     
  18. Papa Zoom

    Papa Zoom Staff Member Moderator

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    Not messing with you. I have no idea what your asking or saying.
     
  19. Eugene

    Eugene Staff Member Moderator

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    Jesus was crucified on Thursday. The third hour is indicative that a part of a day is counted as a day when applying it to the three days and three nights because the third hour is not the end of the day.

    It had to be before the Sabbath which began at 6:00 P.M. on Friday.

    Thursday 9:00 AM Mark 15:25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

    Thursday 3:00 PM Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God,

    Thursday 6:00 PM Mark 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,

    Sunday Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene . .

    Count backward three nights and a part day from Sunday morning since Jesus died before the end of the day (3:00 PM) and that is Sunday to Saturday morning which is one day and one night, Saturday morning to Friday morning is two days and two nights, and Friday morning to Thursday morning at 9:00 AM is three days and three nights.
     
  20. rstrats

    rstrats Member

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    Papa Zoom,
    re: " I have no idea what your asking..."


    Are you a 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate?
     

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