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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Bible Study Conditional Immortality
- Thread starter Doulos Iesou
- Start date
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' 29 Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' " Luke 16:19-31
Abraham is a literal man.
Lazarus is a literal Man.
Moses is a literal man.
Hell [Hades] is a literal place with literal fire.
But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
Jesus literally said words that the literal man Abraham said in his conversation with the rich man, as he told him about his past life on earth.
The rich man who had five brothers, desired to prevent them from coming to that place in hell and being tormented as well.
Jesus said these words - being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off,
Jesus said "the rich man was being tormented in hell [Hades]".
I have no reason to doubt the truth of Jesus words.
JLB
digging
Member
Your method is old school love, the world is changing and it's time to open up to the positive things of God and the message of life.
6 And Jesus said to them, "Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees."7 They began to discuss this among themselves, saying, "He said that because we did not bring anybread." 8 But Jesus, aware of this, said, "You men of little faith, why do you discuss among yourselvesthat you have no bread ? 9 "Do you not yet understand or remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets full you picked up? 10 "Or the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how manylarge baskets full you picked up? 11 "How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to youconcerning bread ? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." 12 Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees
Digging
6 And Jesus said to them, "Watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees."7 They began to discuss this among themselves, saying, "He said that because we did not bring anybread." 8 But Jesus, aware of this, said, "You men of little faith, why do you discuss among yourselvesthat you have no bread ? 9 "Do you not yet understand or remember the five loaves of the five thousand, and how many baskets full you picked up? 10 "Or the seven loaves of the four thousand, and how manylarge baskets full you picked up? 11 "How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to youconcerning bread ? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees." 12 Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees
Digging
chessman
Member
Have you ever thought as to whether there is meaning (intentional significant meaning) to the fact that God refers to His Living Water as an ever flowing river of this stuff, yet there is merely a Lake of Fire?
TimothyW
Member
Okay, so you are saying the fire is real and not symbolic. Why do you think this real fire doesn't burn the rich man up? Why isn't he consumed by the fire?
If the fire is not symbolic but real fire, then the parable of Lazarus and the rich man is better proof for conditional immortality than it is for eternal conscious torment. Real fire burns up what it burns.
Chopper
Member
Hi timothy, I'm still researching this topic. I must say that I favor CI more than ECT. So, I have wondered about this parable, in that the the fire is literal, but does not actually "burn up" the individual, just keeps on burning, and burning, and burning, get the picture? If ECT is for real then the fire is supernaturally controlled so that it does not consume, it just torments....Right off, I don't have Scripture to back up my idea, just a thought. It would be like your Vance & Hines pipes on your Hawg. It won't consume your arm if you come against it right after going for a rip, it just burn like heck.
TimothyW
Member
If the fire was real, then the rich man was consumed by the real fire. That supports the doctrine of Conditional Immortality. He didn't get a drop of water to extinguish the fire, so the flames burned him to ash. If the fire was literal, then the rich man was tormented in the fire until it burnt him to ash.
TimothyW
Member
I've heard the argument before that ECT is possible because God keeps the person alive forever in the flames. I don't buy that argument because the Bible says that the wicked will be consumed by the fire. I also wonder why people present that argument, because it causes major problems for their own religion. What kind of a God do they serve?
Let's examine your statement in light of Jesus words.
Jesus' words = The rich man also died and was buried. and being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'
Timothy's words = If the fire was literal, then the rich man was tormented in the fire until it burnt him to ash.
Jesus word's = Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41
What is the everlasting punishment for the devil?
Timothy, can you honestly answer this question with a scripture?
What is the everlasting punishment for the devil?
JLB
turnorburn
Member
Why would the lake of fire recede, hell certainly doesn't.
Isaiah 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
tob
Isaiah 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
tob
Why would it be better if Judas was never born then to betray the Son of Man if Judas is simply annihilated ? Because he will be tormented in the lake of fire. Those that "earn" the 2nd death by their deeds appear to be aware in the lake of fire. Tormented or torment is written in Rev. So if God has the ability to unmake spirit he doesn't appear to do so. What a Loving God does is warn and warn upfront and its His will for all to choose life.
TimothyW
Member
Jesus' words = "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels".
Here's a fact about fire, it burns things Fire destroys what it burns.
Psalm 37:38 says "But transgressors shall be altogether destroyed". Matthew 3:12 says that the wicked will be burnt up like chaff.
The everlasting punishment for the devil is to be altogether destroyed. Just as the Bible says will happen to the wicked.
TimothyW
Member
John (who wrote the Book of Revelation) says that the lake of fire is the second death. "The lake of fire is the second death." Revelation 20:14
Death is not the same thing as Torment. The second death is death, the second time. It is the death that follows resurrection for judgment. The wicked are raised from their first death, judged, found to be guilty and then sentenced to death. It is called the second death because it will be the second time they have died. But there is no resurrection from the second death, so the second time they die, they remain dead forever. This is why it is also called an eternal punishment. Their destruction remains forever. They do not ever become "undestroyed".
As for Judas, why do you think that it would be better for Judas to be annihilated (and why do you say "simply annihilated?) than to be never born? I think that it would be better to never have been born than to be annihilated. But that is only speculation. And your saying that it is better to be "simply annihilated" is only speculation. "It would be better if Judas was never born" is not saying the same thing as "Judas will be tormented in the lake of fire". The Bible simply does not say that. But the Bible actually DOES say that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more.
TimothyW
Member
Isaiah 5:11-14
Woe to those who rise early in the morning
to run after their drinks,
who stay up late at night
till they are inflamed with wine.
They have harps and lyres at their banquets,
pipes and timbrels and wine,
but they have no regard for the deeds of the Lord,
no respect for the work of his hands.
Therefore my people will go into exile
for lack of understanding;
those of high rank will die of hunger
and the common people will be parched with thirst.
Therefore Death expands its jaws,
opening wide its mouth;
into it will descend their nobles and masses
with all their brawlers and revelers.
Isaiah is saying that many people will die.
The commentators agree that "Hell" as used in Isaiah 5:15 is not the Hell of eternal torment.
If you want to find evidence in the Bible of Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell, it is not in Isaiah 5:14.
Again you have added your words to the scriptures.
Psalm 37:38 does not mention the devil.
The devil is tormented day and night.
Those who are cursed by Jesus are sentenced to the same fate.
Destroyed forever and ever in the lake of fire.
You are stuck on a perception that applies being destroyed physically with what everlasting destruction of a spirit being.
JLB
