M
Mitspa
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Yes it was and it" literally" is as real as it once was.
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Could The USA Be Babylon?
- Thread starter Edward
- Start date
K
King James
Guest
Not sure what your arguement is. That only NYC will be destroyed?
Sinthesis
Member
Not looking for the argument just stating a fact...
Sinthesis
Member
:rolling Way to get to the point! Literally Babylon was a city named... Babylon. In order to think Babylon is actually the USA, one must tread upon the slippery slope of figurative language. Because, if the USA was literally Babylon, then in revelation it would be called by it's literal name, i.e USA. But it's not! Maybe strict literalism is not the best way to understand revelation.
Rev 11:8 - And their dead bodies [shall lie] in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Babylon has a biblically symbolic meaning, as does Sodom and Egypt. These symbols are used to describe and thus condemn a particular people at a particular time, provided you understand the 'spiritual' language.
O
Osgiliath
Guest
ALL religions are part of Babylon, and not just Christianity. 'Babylon' is religion without (not 'within') and is in rebellion against God, plain and simple.
You're on the right track, and you understand the "essence" of "anti-christ" - as long as you remember that 'anti-christ' is not a title that is reserved solely for a "single individual." "Antichrist" properly signifies anyone who opposes, or one who sets himself up in the place of Christ, by appropriating some of the attributes of Christ (as you stated). That is, antichrist appears AS Christ and by so doing is actually AGAINST Christ - usurping that place that rightly belongs to Christ alone! Anything (that is ANYTHING, or ANYONE) that is placed INSTEAD OF Christ, is literally antichrist.
This certainly applies to much of what is called the "christian" religion (as you mentioned). This is actually addressed more specifically in Revelation:
Revelation 13:11 "And I saw another beast ascending up from THE EARTH, and it had two horns, like a lamb; and it spake as a dragon."
This beast is characterized as a beast that has two horns like a LAMB ['looks like' the Lamb of God - i.e. - looks Christian], BUT it spake as a DRAGON [but it 'spake' as that old serpent, the DRAGON, called the devil, and Satan (Revelation 13:11, 12:9)].
This "beast" professes to be the true representative of the Lamb of God in the world. But notwithstanding it's outward characteristics, it spake AS A DRAGON. In other words, this religious beast from THE EARTH (see below) is a belief system which MASQUERADES AS CHRIST'S KINGDOM.
The fact that this beast ascends from THE EARTH is very significant.
Isaiah 1:1 "The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
Isaiah 1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O EARTH: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me."
"THE EARTH," in scripture represents the called, but not chosen "seed" of Abraham.
Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
"THE EARTH" here represents historical Israel AND historical orthodox Christianity. "Judah and Jerusalem" ALWAYS represent "GOD'S PEOPLE" in Scripture. In the Old Covenant, Israel represented God's people. In the New Covenant, Christianity represents God's people. In Biblical prophecy, they apply to God's people - at ANY TIME! They are one in the same. As we read them now they are symbolizing God's people in the form of orthodox Christianity as we see it today. (this is the "IS," "WAS," and "IS TO COME" nature of Jesus Christ - the Living Word of God - see Revelation 1:8; 22:12, 18, 19)
"Orthodox Christianity" is the "Great Harlot" of Revelation 17 and 18. Isaiah reveals this to be the case right here in this very chapter:
Isaiah 1:21 "How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
Isaiah 1:22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:
Isaiah 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them."
"Orthodox Christianity" is in complete opposition to the words of Christ. It would take a spiritually blind man to fail to see that 'Jerusalem' in this chapter is the harlot of Revelation and is "that great city where also our Lord was crucified."
Revelation 11:8 "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."
Is Jerusalem ever called Sodom in scripture? Are God's people ever referred to as Sodom? Is the "orthodox Christian church" ever referred to as Sodom? Right here in this same chapter addressed to His own people, God Himself refers to Jerusalem, the city used in scripture to symbolize the people of God, as Sodom:
Isaiah 1:10 "Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah."
"Sodom and Gomorrah" had been wiped from the face of the earth many years before Isaiah ever began his prophecy. This chapter is addressed to 'Jerusalem', THE SYMBOL OF GOD'S PEOPLE IN EVERY AGE! This chapter is addressed "Hear...O EARTH."
Here is one other witness among many, many others that in scripture the 'EARTH' is God's fallen and rebellious church which despises the doctrine of Jesus Christ and encourages God's people to get involved in the affairs of this age and physically fight and kill their enemies "thinking that they do God a service" - rather than doing as Christ commanded (see Luke 6:27)
Jeremiah 22:1 "Thus saith the LORD; Go down to the house of the king of Judah, and speak there this word,
Jeremiah 22:2 And say, Hear the word of the LORD, O king of Judah, that sittest upon the throne of David, thou, and thy servants, and thy people that enter in by these gates:
Jeremiah 22:5 But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the LORD, that this house shall become a desolation."
Jeremaih 22:29 "O EARTH, EARTH, EARTH, hear the word of the LORD."
This chapter is addressed to 'the king of Judah, his servants and the people who enter by these gates.' It is addressed to God's people! And it concludes with "O earth, earth, earth."
(Remember the beast FROM THE EARTH in Revelation 13:11?)
God is love. Love is therefore God's litmus test. It includes loving Christ's doctrines and it includes loving your enemies:
Luke 6:27 "But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you."
1 John 3:10 "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
1 John 3:14 "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death."
1 John 4:8 "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE."
1 John 4:20 "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"
Who is our 'brother?' Who are we to love? Christ used a Samaritan in the parable of the good Samaritan to make the point that we are to "love your enemies," just for the fact that Samaritans and Jews hated each other. So I ask again who is our brother and who we are to love?
Luke 6:27 "But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you."
Can the multitudes who come every Sunday to hear the parables of Christ really "hear?"
Matthew 13:2 "And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore."
Is Christ trying at this time to save the multitudes who come to hear Him teach his parables? Is that really why Christ taught in parables, so the people could better understand His message?
Matthew 13:9 "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them [the multitudes of Christianity who to this day believe Christ spoke in parables so the multitudes could understand] it is not given.
Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
The multitudes of "historical orthodox Christianity" are to this very day, blind and deaf to the words of Christ and to the voice of the true Shepherd.
All the verses in Scripture about being first "OF THE EARTH, EARTHY," are a reference to the fact that God's people have to be carried off into Babylon before they will ever be brought to the point of "coming out of her My people."
Revelation 18:4 "And I heard another voice from heaven saying, 'Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.'"
The earth represents "God's people." God's people in the Old Covenant were "physical" Israel - the biological "seed" of Abraham. In the New Covenant, "God's people" are "spiritual" Israel - the spiritual "seed" of Abraham:
Galatians 3:29 "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
In other words, "the earth" is "orthodox Christianity". And God's people must "come out of her." They do so because she has no truth in her.
Isaiah 3:1 "For, behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, doth take away from Jerusalem and from Judah the stay and the staff, the whole stay of bread, and the whole stay of water."
They have not one doctrine which is not tainted with leaven!
John 8:44 "Ye ["Those Jews which believed on Him"-verse 30] are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
The "NEW EARTH" is the new spiritual body. It is only by a sovereign act of God that any of us has been given "eyes to see and ears to hear" and to be brought out of that great harlot.
You're on the right track, and you understand the "essence" of "anti-christ" - as long as you remember that 'anti-christ' is not a title that is reserved solely for a "single individual." "Antichrist" properly signifies anyone who opposes, or one who sets himself up in the place of Christ, by appropriating some of the attributes of Christ (as you stated). That is, antichrist appears AS Christ and by so doing is actually AGAINST Christ - usurping that place that rightly belongs to Christ alone! Anything (that is ANYTHING, or ANYONE) that is placed INSTEAD OF Christ, is literally antichrist.
This certainly applies to much of what is called the "christian" religion (as you mentioned). This is actually addressed more specifically in Revelation:
Revelation 13:11 "And I saw another beast ascending up from THE EARTH, and it had two horns, like a lamb; and it spake as a dragon."
This beast is characterized as a beast that has two horns like a LAMB ['looks like' the Lamb of God - i.e. - looks Christian], BUT it spake as a DRAGON [but it 'spake' as that old serpent, the DRAGON, called the devil, and Satan (Revelation 13:11, 12:9)].
This "beast" professes to be the true representative of the Lamb of God in the world. But notwithstanding it's outward characteristics, it spake AS A DRAGON. In other words, this religious beast from THE EARTH (see below) is a belief system which MASQUERADES AS CHRIST'S KINGDOM.
The fact that this beast ascends from THE EARTH is very significant.
Isaiah 1:1 "The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, [and] Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
Isaiah 1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O EARTH: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me."
"THE EARTH," in scripture represents the called, but not chosen "seed" of Abraham.
Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."
"THE EARTH" here represents historical Israel AND historical orthodox Christianity. "Judah and Jerusalem" ALWAYS represent "GOD'S PEOPLE" in Scripture. In the Old Covenant, Israel represented God's people. In the New Covenant, Christianity represents God's people. In Biblical prophecy, they apply to God's people - at ANY TIME! They are one in the same. As we read them now they are symbolizing God's people in the form of orthodox Christianity as we see it today. (this is the "IS," "WAS," and "IS TO COME" nature of Jesus Christ - the Living Word of God - see Revelation 1:8; 22:12, 18, 19)
"Orthodox Christianity" is the "Great Harlot" of Revelation 17 and 18. Isaiah reveals this to be the case right here in this very chapter:
Isaiah 1:21 "How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
Isaiah 1:22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:
Isaiah 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them."
"Orthodox Christianity" is in complete opposition to the words of Christ. It would take a spiritually blind man to fail to see that 'Jerusalem' in this chapter is the harlot of Revelation and is "that great city where also our Lord was crucified."
Revelation 11:8 "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified."
Is Jerusalem ever called Sodom in scripture? Are God's people ever referred to as Sodom? Is the "orthodox Christian church" ever referred to as Sodom? Right here in this same chapter addressed to His own people, God Himself refers to Jerusalem, the city used in scripture to symbolize the people of God, as Sodom:
Isaiah 1:10 "Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah."
"Sodom and Gomorrah" had been wiped from the face of the earth many years before Isaiah ever began his prophecy. This chapter is addressed to 'Jerusalem', THE SYMBOL OF GOD'S PEOPLE IN EVERY AGE! This chapter is addressed "Hear...O EARTH."
Here is one other witness among many, many others that in scripture the 'EARTH' is God's fallen and rebellious church which despises the doctrine of Jesus Christ and encourages God's people to get involved in the affairs of this age and physically fight and kill their enemies "thinking that they do God a service" - rather than doing as Christ commanded (see Luke 6:27)
Jeremiah 22:1 "Thus saith the LORD; Go down to the house of the king of Judah, and speak there this word,
Jeremiah 22:2 And say, Hear the word of the LORD, O king of Judah, that sittest upon the throne of David, thou, and thy servants, and thy people that enter in by these gates:
Jeremiah 22:5 But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the LORD, that this house shall become a desolation."
Jeremaih 22:29 "O EARTH, EARTH, EARTH, hear the word of the LORD."
This chapter is addressed to 'the king of Judah, his servants and the people who enter by these gates.' It is addressed to God's people! And it concludes with "O earth, earth, earth."
(Remember the beast FROM THE EARTH in Revelation 13:11?)
God is love. Love is therefore God's litmus test. It includes loving Christ's doctrines and it includes loving your enemies:
Luke 6:27 "But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you."
1 John 3:10 "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."
1 John 3:14 "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death."
1 John 4:8 "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE."
1 John 4:20 "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?"
Who is our 'brother?' Who are we to love? Christ used a Samaritan in the parable of the good Samaritan to make the point that we are to "love your enemies," just for the fact that Samaritans and Jews hated each other. So I ask again who is our brother and who we are to love?
Luke 6:27 "But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you."
Can the multitudes who come every Sunday to hear the parables of Christ really "hear?"
Matthew 13:2 "And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore."
Is Christ trying at this time to save the multitudes who come to hear Him teach his parables? Is that really why Christ taught in parables, so the people could better understand His message?
Matthew 13:9 "Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them [the multitudes of Christianity who to this day believe Christ spoke in parables so the multitudes could understand] it is not given.
Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
The multitudes of "historical orthodox Christianity" are to this very day, blind and deaf to the words of Christ and to the voice of the true Shepherd.
All the verses in Scripture about being first "OF THE EARTH, EARTHY," are a reference to the fact that God's people have to be carried off into Babylon before they will ever be brought to the point of "coming out of her My people."
Revelation 18:4 "And I heard another voice from heaven saying, 'Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.'"
The earth represents "God's people." God's people in the Old Covenant were "physical" Israel - the biological "seed" of Abraham. In the New Covenant, "God's people" are "spiritual" Israel - the spiritual "seed" of Abraham:
Galatians 3:29 "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
In other words, "the earth" is "orthodox Christianity". And God's people must "come out of her." They do so because she has no truth in her.
Isaiah 3:1 "For, behold, the Lord, the LORD of hosts, doth take away from Jerusalem and from Judah the stay and the staff, the whole stay of bread, and the whole stay of water."
They have not one doctrine which is not tainted with leaven!
John 8:44 "Ye ["Those Jews which believed on Him"-verse 30] are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
The "NEW EARTH" is the new spiritual body. It is only by a sovereign act of God that any of us has been given "eyes to see and ears to hear" and to be brought out of that great harlot.
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K
King James
Guest
So what you are saying is christianity to you is just a symbolic philosophical lifestyle that has nothing to do with anyone outside the religion, nothing to do in relation to the earth body, the eternal soul, nothing to do with the world around us. That is how I interpret your post.
M
Mitspa
Guest
I must say again Oshligath, that I agree with much of what you just posted. I can actually see the points many have made on this topic, except those who pretend that none of these things are real. Some seem to have some blinders on, and refuse to allow any light to shine on the fact that we live in a country that could very well be at the heart of biblical babylon.
Now the harlot rides upon the beast, and they make war! World religion and world government are all being planned in New York City. How all that is going to play out? I do not know, but I can see that its there!
Now the harlot rides upon the beast, and they make war! World religion and world government are all being planned in New York City. How all that is going to play out? I do not know, but I can see that its there!
Many say the one world government/religion will usher in the return of Christ.... If this is so should we as Christians do all we can to get that going? Who does not want the Lord to return quickly?
M
Mitspa
Guest
I dont think none of us are trying to start a cult? I just think some things are getting clearer about the time we are in.
As far as the Lord returning I have no doubt that He will be right on time!
The good ol slick dodge Mitspa? I said nothing about anyone starting a cult. Do you not agree many say the OWG OWR will usher in the return of CHrist?
digging
Member
Oshligath I like how you reason and think.
However I would like to ask you to consider that this time the 'earth' is all people even beyond just 'christian nations' the whole entire world of mankind because that's who God is working to save. The work he did through the nation of Israel was a small model for his global plan.
So in addition I see Babylon as larger than just religion as you pointed out the meaning of antichrist, Anything (that is ANYTHING, or ANYONE) that is placed INSTEAD OF Christ, is literally antichrist."
Like wise with the harlot woman who is in relationship with all the kings of the earth. Doesn't that make her the woman of the antichrist?
Thus she is everyone who is not of the bride of Christ. Everyone who looks to kings of men in place of the King of Kings Jesus Christ.
As Malachi 3:17 "They will be Mine," says the LORD of hosts, "on the day that I prepare My own possession, and I will spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him." 18 So you will again distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve Him.
Digging
However I would like to ask you to consider that this time the 'earth' is all people even beyond just 'christian nations' the whole entire world of mankind because that's who God is working to save. The work he did through the nation of Israel was a small model for his global plan.
So in addition I see Babylon as larger than just religion as you pointed out the meaning of antichrist, Anything (that is ANYTHING, or ANYONE) that is placed INSTEAD OF Christ, is literally antichrist."
Like wise with the harlot woman who is in relationship with all the kings of the earth. Doesn't that make her the woman of the antichrist?
Thus she is everyone who is not of the bride of Christ. Everyone who looks to kings of men in place of the King of Kings Jesus Christ.
As Malachi 3:17 "They will be Mine," says the LORD of hosts, "on the day that I prepare My own possession, and I will spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him." 18 So you will again distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve Him.
Digging
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Sinthesis
Member
What do you mean by "Orthodox Christianity"? What are its failings? And if it is in fact a negative influence, then why do you use those two particular words ("Orthodox" and "Christianity") to describe it?
M
Mitspa
Guest
Yes i must admit i did dodge a little! lol
I see some truth in that, but always think of the scripture that says that He who restrains will restrain until the time! So in my veiw, I am responsible to keep myself in the love of God, and to watch as these things are coming to pass. I will not be involved in any group that promotes fear and such, nor that takes up some stand against the world order. But my trust is to be in God and His ability to keep me, no matter what is to come.
I just watched on 60 min last night, that they now have a computer that can read the thoughts in the brain and can control robotic arms and legs. Knowledge and evil are increasing at a rate that none of us can even comprehend.
I think it is wise to look at these things, apart from fear, but that we might see that the time is growing short for Adam and his seed.
O
Osgiliath
Guest
You mean, like Orthodox Christianity? Their whole theology is based on FEAR!
How many Christians are today using their service to God as a fire escape?
How many are serving God only out of fear of going to Hell, as a slave in fear of a tyrant?
I would say; MOST!
If these 'Christians' had the fear of Hell removed from them, how many would promptly go tell God to 'stick it' and then proceed to drown themselves in carnal pleasures and fleshly pursuits?
Again, I would say; MOST!
And, if I may ask:
Has the doctrine of eternal torment kept people from backsliding?
Has it turned the world to God?
Has it made the streets in your city safe to walk at night?
Has it kept the Christians from growing spiritually cold, or from committing disgraceful sins?
Has it prevented Churches from becoming worldly, or sinking into apostasy?
It has not!
Revelation 18:4 "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her [BABYLON], my people"
digging
Member
I had one more thought for you Osgiliath with regards your point about the meaning of 'earth' in the bible.
"7 Then the LORD God formed man of http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/genesis/2.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-8dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life ; and http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/genesis/2.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-9man became a living http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/genesis/2.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-fbeing"
Adam's very name is linked to the red color of the soil/earth.
Digging
"7 Then the LORD God formed man of http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/genesis/2.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-8dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life ; and http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/genesis/2.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-9man became a living http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/genesis/2.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-fbeing"
Adam's very name is linked to the red color of the soil/earth.
Digging
K
King James
Guest
The satanically influenced humans in charge of the governments, money systems, what we know of science, history, medicine, you name it, are not christians. Their command center to produce the end game is America, The Babylon. Jesus is the only president where you wouldn't have to hope for change, and you would have to worry that the change would be for the worst. By the way, look up the hope and change montra, the handlers had the last four presidents use it in speeches, only by Obama's time, people were ready to blindly follow such a hollow slogan with nothing to back it up, kind of like during nazi germany's time with hitler.