Bible Study DAMASCUS

[cyberjosh]

You've given me proof that the "Lord's Day" is referring to Sunday ...? Not at all. In fact, as long as you're wanting to make it 'a specific day' as opposed to it being a reference to last day events, let us do that then.

There are two scriptures that would quite clearly state that the "Lord's Day" is the 7th-day Sabbath. We're told in Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5, of course, that Jesus referred to Himself as being "Lord of the Sabbath." It doesn't take too much a stretch of the imagination to therefore conclude that the "Lord's Day" (the Sabbath) is the DAY of which He (Jesus) is LORD. If I have to make a specific day (*I don't believe this, by the way) from Revelation 1:10, then the "Lord's Day" would be none other than the 7th-day Sabbath. How can I see this and you not?

Better yet is Isaiah 58:13 ...try this one on for size:

"If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the LORD'S (HOLY) DAY honorable . . ." Emphasis mine.

Sunday? I don't think so. There is NO reference in the scriptures that can have anyone arriving at the "Lord's Day" being a Sunday. If you check out the RC Catechism you'll find where this corruption of scripture came from initially.

*Note: I believe the "Lord's Day" to be referring to 'the day of the Lord' as found many times in the book of Isaiah. This is the theme of the Book of Revelation.

You seem to have completely ignored (or not addressed) though my two Bible commentaries that I quoted and the extra-Biblical quotes that showed that the "Lord's Day" is a specific say in the week. Perhaps though this is because you haven't "rechecked" that post again yet (like you said below). I will wait and see. I would most appreciate it if you would agree with or refute the two commentaries and the two quotes I made about the Lord's Day. That was what I was referencing when I asked you if those had not proven it. I will wait for your response.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Is this the post, cyber?

Oh, so Jesus returned on the day that John had his vision? Dang I missed the rapture. Just kidding. ;)

You must have been stuffing your face ...

Now to seriously address you, it is not my opinion only that the "Lord's Day" is sunday when Christians met. Several Church historians and Bible scholars were the origin of these ideas. My cross references in the margin of my NASB and NKJV Bible both happen to link Acts 20:7 and Rev 1:10 together.

Didn't I make an even clearer argument in my previous post for the "Lord's Day" being the Sabbath? You surely can't ignore the obvious. The people involved in Acts 20:7 were STAUNCH sabbatarians and would NEVER have agreed to the abolition of the Sabbath or having Paul initiate a 'new holy day' so lightly. They knew Paul to be as human as they were. I just can't get my head around the idea that merely because we're told that the disciples met on the 1st-day that we're to give the day some special significance. We are told NOWHERE in scripture that Sunday has suddenly taken on some form of a 'holy day'. We DO, however, find this to be the case with RCC theology.

My Zondervan NASB commentary say's what I've already said on Rev 1:10:

"the Lord's Day. A technical term for the first day of the week - so named because Jesus rose from the dead on that day. It was also the day on which the Christians met (see Acts 20:7) and took up collections (see 1 Cor 16:2)."

Commentaries are just that and are not the inspired Word of God. We need to recognize that the authors of commentaries come at issues with a slant or an agenda of their own. We must always be mindful that Sunday has become the Christian 'Sabbath'. The majority of Christians acknowledge this. Most of the Bible commentators are those who adhere to the principle of Sunday as the Christian Sabbath. With this mindset they write their commentaries. The "Lord's Day' as being Sunday is found NOWHERE in the Bible. This was invented by men and it's become a myth disguised as a fact. Do you agree?

My NKJV commentary on Rev 1:10 is a little more thorough and helpful:

"Lord's Day. This phrase appears in many early Christian writings and refers to Sunday, the day of the Lord's ressurection. Some have suggested this phrase refers to "the Day of the Lord," but the context doesn't support that interpretation, and the grammatical form of the word "Lord" is adjectival, thus 'the Lord's day'."

We assume (quite incorrectly) that the 'many early Christian writings' are somehow MORE inspired by God simply because they are 'early'. Many Christians similarly believe that a hymn written in the 1700s is more 'inspired' than a gospel song composed in the 21st Century. This, again, is a mindset that is hard to shake. NOWHERE else does John ever use the term the "Lord's Day" as either the Sabbath or Sunday. He DID know, however, that the term is used in Isaiah and he also knew that Jesus was LORD of the Sabbath DAY. So ...why do we suddenly get SUNDAY from Revelation 1:10 while ignoring the more obvious reference to the Sabbath Day? I'm sorry, cyber, but this just does NOT compute. Sunday has become a very important day to Christians and they defend this traditional 'holy day' (thanks to the RCC) oh, so militantly!

And indeed it is true that many early Christian sources refered to Sunday as the Lord's day. In addition to the Didache which I quoted above St. Ignatius an Early Church Father (who wrote before 110 A.D.) wrote:

"We have seen how former adherents of the ancient customs have since attained to a new hope; so that they have given up keeping the Sabbath, and now order their lives by the Lord's Day instead - the Day when life first dawned for us, thanks to Him (Jesus) and His death. [Epistle to the Magnesians 9]

But you are not telling me anything new, cyber. I know of the early writings and I dismiss them as coming from mere mortals. They are NOT scriptural so why are we to give them the same recognition? Make your case, if you can, from the Bible ALONE. I'm really not interested in the Tom, Dick and Harry stories that are contrary to scripture anyway. We already KNOW that Sunday has become the Christian Sabbath. What I have a problem with is that this was NOT done as a directive from God.

So instead of you telling me to do my research why don't you do some of your own.

But I HAVE researched this issue, cyber, many times. And it's BECAUSE I have that I've arrived at my present position on this issue. I'm not merely 'defending' the beliefs of a denomination but the beliefs I've gained through my own research. If the truth be known, I really don't give a hoot about denominations as such.

Look also here for a short synopsis of sunday worship: http://www.religionfacts.com/christiani ... sunday.htm

Also I can't buy full heartedly into your "Christians met in Synagogues thus on the Sabbath" arguement because Synagogues were attended every day, that's what they were for, for daily teaching and instruction.

I don't deny that some Christians may have still met on the Sabbath (although Paul made it clear that they had the liberty to or not to observe it), and no doubt they probably would have debated with the jews there as Paul did. But my point is that Sunday was observed as a holy day also in early Christianity because it was the sacred day on which the Lord rose.

Wrong! Christians were NEVER advised by God to make a 'holy/sacred day' from the resurrection of Jesus. The resurrection of Jesus is what the entire belief system of Christianity hinges on and a 'mere day' is not required of Christians on which to 'remember'. The week of Creation, however, DOES need to be remembered ...hence the 4th-command that asks us to "Remember". Christians forget this every time they substitute Sunday for the 7th-day. :-?

Paul himself preached to Jews and Gentiles on Sabbath as was his custom. The Sabbath day was so important, in fact, that Jesus Himself makes reference to it in Matthew 24:20 when referring to the fall of Jerusalem in AD70. Read Hebrews 4 - I mean REALLY read it with full understanding - and you will see that there is STILL a 7th-day Sabbath to be kept by God's people. Believe it ior not, Wikipedia gives a VERY good commentary on the Sabbath/Sunday issue, including Hebrews 4. And, it is not biased in any way!

I'm not trying to make any ties betweeen the Sabbath and Sunday, nor do I claim Sunday worship supplanted the Sabbath because they are unrelated. But early Sunday worship turned into our modern day observance of Church on Sunday. Though it does seem that on a social scale this observance did seem to replace the traditional observance of the Sabbath (which was no longer required) in the life of the Church.

Again ...I suggest you read Hebrews 4 if you feel that observance of the Sabbath is not required. Besides, who told you that it was no longer required? ...not Paul. And if you DO get this from Paul then you need to do some rechecking as you're obviously misunderstand the context of which he's speaking. Getting rid of ALL of the commandments in order to abolish the 4th and preaching this to others is tantamount to blasphemy.

And this is love: that we walk in obedience to His commands. 2 John 1:6

Thanks for listening.

 

[cyberjosh]

We are told NOWHERE in scripture that Sunday has suddenly taken on some form of a 'holy day'.

Wrong! Christians were NEVER advised by God to make a 'holy/sacred day' from the resurrection of Jesus

No you're right, there is no mandate, I've never tried to push that. I'm just trying to show you evidence that the Christians could have began the practice of meeting on Sunday at a early stage, not because of some pagan day obserservance but because they wanted to celebrate the day of Jesus' ressurection. The Jews were not ordered by God to enact the feast of Purim, but they did so out of joy of the nation being saved, and it was observed even up to Jesus' day, of which Jesus even attended.

I can't pretend that the Bible has an overwhelimg case that early Christians worshiped on sunday, three verses isn't something to build a doctrine on, but I've tried my best to give you some context in which the first day might have been used for certain activities on the Christian church, which later evolved into an all out day of worship.

The "Lord's Day' as being Sunday is found NOWHERE in the Bible. This was invented by men and it's become a myth disguised as a fact. Do you agree?

One verse is nothing to build a doctrine on, but I thought that that one commentary that mentioned the grammatical structure of the "Lord's day" might help you see its construction. Many commentaries note the controversial interpretation and present both the esatalogical interpretation, and the possibility that John was just telling what day he had his vision on.

NOWHERE else does John ever use the term the "Lord's Day" as either the Sabbath or Sunday. He DID know, however, that the term is used in Isaiah and he also knew that Jesus was LORD of the Sabbath DAY. So ...why do we suddenly get SUNDAY from Revelation 1:10 while ignoring the more obvious reference to the Sabbath Day?

Wait a minute, first you say that it doesn't reference either Saturday or Sunday but then you say that it is an "obvious reference to the Sabbath Day". Which is it?

And since that construction of "the Lord's day" is only found once in Scripture you really can't build a solid case either way. I tried to give some context though to the common understanding of "the Lord's Day" by early Church Father's. No they aren't infallible but it so happens that Iraneus was a disciple of John and wrote that quote only 20 years after John wrote Revelation.

And the construction is certinly different from the "Day of the LORD(YHWH)". YHWH typically reprents just God the Father, while the Greek word kurious most often refers to Jesus in the NT. And the rare adjectivial, posesive form of of kurious in Rev 1:10 is found elsewhere only in 1 Corinthians 11:20 where it says, "When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat." This is speaking of Jesus. I may be wrong about Rev 1:10 talking about Sunday, since I don't have overwhelming evidence, but I still don't think you should confuse this with "the Day of the LORD (YHWH)" of the Old Testament where YHWH will judge the nations.

But you are not telling me anything new, cyber. I know of the early writings and I dismiss them as coming from mere mortals. They are NOT scriptural so why are we to give them the same recognition? Make your case, if you can, from the Bible ALONE. I'm really not interested in the Tom, Dick and Harry stories that are contrary to scripture anyway. We already KNOW that Sunday has become the Christian Sabbath. What I have a problem with is that this was NOT done as a directive from God.

I told you above why I used Iraneus.

Overall though, the observation of the Christian Sunday, indesputably for the observance of Christ's ressurection, started early whether during NT times or atleast by the 20 years between John's Revelation and Iraneus, (though surely John would have rebuked his disciple if he misused such an important term like "the Lord's Day"). The Bible gives us liberty to observe holy days when we want (Col 2:16) so for all I care you can do it on monday, tuesday, wednesday, etc. or all seven days of the week! "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike." (Romans 14:5)