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Dealing with a complex moral issue & personal tragedy - help please?

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muffins

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This is a long post, so I understand if you don't want to bother. It could also be seen by some as medically graphic in nature.

My husband and I tried for years to have a baby. After years, and two miscarriages, we decided to go to a fertility specialist and try IUI. I ended up pregnant with twins. From the beginning, my doctor said that me having twins made her nervous. I was cautiously optimistic, but when I got to my car after finding out it was twins, I felt a voice speak in my heart. "You know you won't be able to keep them, right?" I ignored it, chalking it up to paranoia after losing the first two pregnancies.

The first trimester went by without any problems, but as soon as I hit the second trimester I started getting sick. The hospital visits started. "Hyperemises Gravidarum" the doctors said, as they hydrated me and sent me home. I got vertigo so bad I could hardly walk. They hydrated me and sent me home. I had severe upper right quadrant (liver) pain and nausea. The babies showed no growth in the last 4 weeks. They hydrated me and sent me home. My resting heart rate was racing at 140 bpm, my bp was 220/160 and I started throwing up blood. They finally admitted me. I prayed. "God, if you have any love for me, any love at all, please don't take them."

I had teams of doctors and residents in my hospital room day and night. Obstetricians, toxicologists, perinatologists, hepatologists, all trying to find out what was going on. The blood flow to the babies was severely restricted. My liver enzymes were elevated, my platelets were dropping, my bp was through the roof - but being in the hospital and getting medicine made me feel better. I no longer felt sick, but my liver was starting to shut down, my kidneys were starting to swell, and every time they drew blood huge bruises would spread from the draw site. They monitored the babies heart rates every hour - both were strong in spite of being very small and having placental insufficiency. After 10 days, around 1:00 am, a doctor woke me up to tell me they were moving me to labor and delivery. He said we had to induce labor in the morning. I the doctors had come to a consensus that I had HELLP syndrome and had to deliver immediately if I was going to live.
The twins would die.

I fought against the doctors, I said NO. We are not doing this. My mom agreed with me, but she left me alone at the hospital to get some sleep. One doctor after another came in to convince me to induce labor. I said no - put me on life support if you have to, I won't kill my babies. I asked for a chaplain - surely they would side with me. My twins lives were more important than mine. The chaplain agreed with the doctors. The doctors said life support wasn't an option. If I didn't deliver within a few hours I would start bleeding internally from low platelets, and they wouldn't be able to transfuse it as fast as I would be losing it. I begged for God to please, please send me someone to stand with me - to support me in doing what I wanted - save the twins. A doctor came in and sat down. I told him I was 22 weeks 4 days pregnant. If I could make it a week and a half more they would have a chance at surviving. My husband was silent.
The doctor said "No, they won't. We might keep them alive for a day, or a few days, but they won't survive. They are too small, and if you had seen what I have seen in the NICU with babies too small to survive, and the pain they go through before they pass, you wouldn't want that for them either." Then he said it was irrelevant anyway, that I didn't have weeks, I didn't have days. I had hours. Then I would start to hemorrhage. There would be brain damage, organ damage. I would be bleeding from everywhere at once and they wouldn't be able to stop it. I was dying. My husband started sobbing and begged me to do what the doctors said. My last support was taken out from under me. I looked at him, betrayed. "You know what you just asked me to do? You asked me to kill our children." He said he didn't want to lose me and the babies. He didn't want to be left alone.

Finally, after arguing back and forth, I was weak, exhausted, afraid, confused, in terrible pain (emotional and physical) and I surrendered. I let them induce labor even though my soul screamed out against it. I prayed that if this horrible thing had to happen, that maybe God would take me with them.

I don't remember much after that. I don't know if I blocked it out, or if I was so sick I was really starting to lose it. What I do know is that hours later I sat up, in a moment of clarity. My water broke, it was time. Baby Adam was born before the doctor could even get into the room. He was alive, moving. Charlotte was still inside, kicking and fighting for her life. I could feel her. She was alive - she was strong. Moments later, she was born, but her brother had already passed. She followed soon after. I held them as they struggled to take their first and final breath, and failed. I held them as they turned cold in my arms.

My son and daughter are dead because of me, because of the decision I made. Maybe I would have died, maybe not. Maybe the twins wouldn't have made it in the NICU, maybe they would have. But I let them induce labor. In my weakness I consented to allow them to die. Nothing can justify that. I want to be forgiven, but I have blood on my hands, the very blood I should have died trying to protect.

Five months after I lost the twins I found out I was pregnant again. My son was born at 28 weeks gestation (3 months early) weighing 1 lb 15 ounces. He survived, and is now over 10 lbs and 7 months old. It makes me wonder if his brother and sister might have made it. A week and a half. That was all I had to do - live for 10 more days.

I know you might say all I have to do is ask and I will be forgiven. I don't think it's that easy. My dad is catholic, as is his whole family. My mom was Presbyterian, so I was raised protestant. Even so, I still have that connection to the Catholic church. From what I can tell, what I did was still considered an abortion, and its "medical necessity" is irrelevant. If I were a catholic, I would be excommunicated for it. So I am going to hell - both because I am not catholic and because I let them induce labor, knowing it would end the lives of my son and daughter. My protestant beliefs are inconsistent with what I picked up from the catholic side of my family. Saying I am sorry and asking for forgiveness doesn't seem to be enough. I am hurting, conflicted, and wracked with guilt.

I wanted so badly for them to live.

Sorry about the rambling.
 
don't worry about making long posts. I do it all the time, lol.

I don't think you're going to hell because you did what was medically necessary. Actually, from the sounds of things, it seems that other people more or less decided for you, anyway.

Sorry about all this. Its terrible, terrible, terrible, what you went through. I don't have a whole lot to say...I'm not Catholic (I was actually raised...get read for it...Presbyterian, on the liberal end of the church), so I don't see what happened as murder at all. Terrible situation, terrible choices. What to do? I'm now more traditional Protestant, but even so...you just found yourself in a terrible situation, because its all too often a terrible world we live in. I didn't see any good choices in the situation you described.

I wish you well with your life and your family.
 
Dear Muffins, first of all allow me to welcome you to our Christian fellowship in Jesus' name. Next I want to ask if you have ever received Jesus as your Savior? Now this is important, because my having come out of Catholicism I really didn't know the answer to that.

Even in Christ we have a conscience, and as the result of perceived or committed sin we can suffer greatly. God gave us His Son Jesus that we might live, and His continuing work in your lives will not only have you grow in the grace provided by Him, the things you experience will glorify Him as you come to realize that these trials of your faith are more precious than gold to you. I use this cliché often, and it is "God ain't finished with us yet.

King David after doing just about everything wrong that be called bad, called out to God in Psa 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. God does not remove Himself from us because He tells us He will never fail or forsake us, and as far as receiving forgiveness Psa 103:12 tells us: As far as the east is from the west, so far hath He removed our transgressions from us.

Psa 30:2 O LORD my God, I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. To receive the benefit in your heart of this healing, believe Him, and you will come to:
Psa 30:5 . . . weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.
May God bless you Muffin to be comforted in the very arms of God as you take in the amount of love He has for you in Jesus' name.
 
Muffin, I cannot understand the pain you have in your heart, I have never lost a child. I prayed about you and this is all I can say, for whatever worth it may have.
You only had two choices, not three. You could choose to live, as your husband asked you to. Or you could die with your children. There was no third choice, no 10 days, the doctors could not sustain you that long.
The Lord knows what was and is in your heart. You did not murder your children, you could not have saved them.
Maybe you are feeling guilty for living, when they did not.
There was a mother in the old testament who suffered when her son was killed. She gave birth to another son and called him Seth. She said, God has given me another son to take the place of, Abel. She needed that empty place her heart to be filled.
The Lord has given you a son, to give all your love to. He is a precious gift from heaven.

May God bless you, your husband, and your wonderful little boy.
 
Eugene - Yes, I have received Jesus as my lord and savior. Even when I was angry about what happened I still loved God beneath all the sadness and anger. I don't really have any right to complain, either. Lots of people have had worse happen to them. It still hurts, though. I haven't been to church in a while, mainly because my son was too sick to go somewhere with lots of people, and if anyone had a respiratory infection it could be fatal if he caught it. I have wanted to go the last few weeks but I have had family functions out of state and other stuff going on. I hope to go back this weekend.

Deborah - thanks for that. I can't really talk to my family about it - it's painful for them too, and they like to think that having a baby survive somehow fixes the fact that we lost four before him. It doesn't. I go about my day and I look like I am doing fine, but tears are never very far beneath the surface. I see him growing and I know his siblings can't. I wonder if they would have looked like him. I am eternally grateful for my son, and I thank God for him over and over again. Maybe you are right and I have survivors guilt. I just hope I can see them again when I leave this world.
 
muffins, I think your feelings are completely understandable. All I can say, personally, is that you didn't have any *good* choices; the choices you were faced with simply left you and those treating you with the choice of the lesser evil. God loves you. Do you like David Jeremiah? He has this book, I skim it now and then, God Loves You. Maybe you could check it out?
 
I just hope I can see them again when I leave this world.
Dear Sister muffins, I have lost a child too, and God is so gracious to have taken the pain away. As for seeing your children again, there is no doubt just as we read of the child God took from King David. 2 Sam 12:23. But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. Now where was that child that David would one day go to him? Since heaven was not yet open at that time; Jesus hadn’t died yet, the child was taken to Abraham’s bosom, the resting place of comfort of the righteous of the Old Testament (Luke 16:19-31). David does appear in Heb 11:32 listing many of the faithful, and we can know these children are comforted too.
 
I know you might say all I have to do is ask and I will be forgiven. I don't think it's that easy. My dad is catholic, as is his whole family. My mom was Presbyterian, so I was raised protestant. Even so, I still have that connection to the Catholic church. From what I can tell, what I did was still considered an abortion, and its "medical necessity" is irrelevant.
muffins,
Welcome to the forum. Only those who have lost babies and young children can feel your pain and loss. But since you have come here and placed your tragedy and guilt before Christians, you should know that God has made a way for you to be completely forgiven and free from guilt. We are all guilty sinners, since "there is none righteous, no not one". But the Good News of the Gospel is that all sinners can be saved by grace and become new creatures in Christ.

You might as well know that the Catholic concept of sin and the Catholic undertanding of the finished work of Christ leave much to be desired. But the Holy Bible is the Word of God, and if you are prepared to take God at His word (regardless of what the Catholic Church teaches), He can give you complete freedom from guilt, and also the real comfort that you and your husband need. This may not be easy, but it has to be dealt with by both of you as a couple.
 
I can't really talk to my family about it - it's painful for them too, and they like to think that having a baby survive somehow fixes the fact that we lost four before him. It doesn't.
Muffins, my heart goes out to you. Having miscarried two precious little lives, I completely
relate to you in feeling other children do not 'take their place'. It takes away the respect due
every human life, and also places unfair expectations on living children. I pray God's
healing comfort brings beauty to the ashes of your pain.
 
I was very moved by your story. I have no children. So on many fronts I really have no moral capital / moral clout to say anything other than I am sorry and I pray you can forgive yourself (because that is what I perceive is at the core of your troubles in addition to the great losses). This life, as you can attest, is the most hell a believer in Jesus Christ will ever know. It is at the same time the most heaven unbelievers will ever know. And tragedies like what you endured and endure to this very hour are not uncommon in this proving ground between the two eternities (eternal life / eternal doom).

We must place our trust fully in God over these tragedies and in our feelings over how we could have done or said something different when the crucial moment came... and we failed, or we had to make the hard choices... and we just can't get past it or forgive ourselves. KNOW this, your babies were not some accident of nature. God intended them to come... even for so short a lifetime... the answer to all the why's is because of where we all live in this proving ground between the two eternities... and every baby God creates will face certain death in this life sooner or later... every one...

I do not know how any parents who outlive their children's lives endure the grief. But it is as old as Adam and Eve (the first parents) who lost Abel. Even if I had children, as a man I would have never known the special bond or vocation (if that's the right word) of being a mother carrying and nurturing the lives that come in their very body... but I identify with the self guilt of when I fail at my vocation in life as provider / protector for my family... and in that much inferior way, I can identify with you to at least that small degree.

Know this also. God is omniscient and knows all who will believe in his Son... including those who did not make it to the age of accountability. His all-knowing-ness includes not only what has happened, is happening, will happen, but also the variables of what might have happened. As he orchestrates all things for the good of those who love him in Christ Jesus. This is why sometimes bad things happen to good people / believers. Something somewhere had to happen for the good of those who believe in Jesus and we may never know what that is... but so long as we trust God it gives us peace, and hope, and contentment, and a knowing that good is coming of it.

God be with you!

P.S. unbeknownst to us is all that others have suffered on our behalf... specially Christ.
 
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A deeply moving thread. Muffins, I see nothing to forgive. I sense that what you call the guilt you have, is the only loving connection you have to Adam and Charlotte and so you hold onto that. That's okay, and I weep at the beauty of it.
 
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Hi Muffin

I cannot even begin to comprehend what you going through and I am deeply sorry. Somehow when things like this happens we just somehow have to put all our faith in God.

My dad was diagnosed with cancer at the end of last year and luckily he managed to overcome it, it is completely gone. Definitely a miracle but it has taught me to appreciate life better and to always remember what matters in life. But it's easier to look back now and to think the power of God and the rough times we as a family went through. It was extremely tough to see him in ICU, to help carry him to the toilet, to see him dealing with the whole ordeal, etc. God forbid something had to happen to him because he is so much more to me than a dad. But definitely in time I would of found peace with God, time heals all wounds.

I am 32 years old and Catholic, attending church every Sunday. I'm far from perfect and not that active in the church. Sometimes people tend to think because I'm catholic I'm very strict when it comes to my beliefs and traditions. I must be honest, I'm not. I see more myself as a Christian and a guy whole believes in God and the way you live your life and treat people. To each their own when it comes to religion, it is something you born into, there also cannot be hundreds of different gods, rather just different beliefs.

I don't think you did anything wrong at all, you did the best any mom would do. I really hope you find peace and God be with you. I know life can be so hard but we have to live in hope and faith in what tomorrow may bring. God is bigger than our problems and fears, we can overcome anything, it just takes little steps and constantly praying.

All the best to you and your family.
 
This is a long post, so I understand if you don't want to bother. It could also be seen by some as medically graphic in nature.

My husband and I tried for years to have a baby. After years, and two miscarriages, we decided to go to a fertility specialist and try IUI. I ended up pregnant with twins. From the beginning, my doctor said that me having twins made her nervous. I was cautiously optimistic, but when I got to my car after finding out it was twins, I felt a voice speak in my heart. "You know you won't be able to keep them, right?" I ignored it, chalking it up to paranoia after losing the first two pregnancies.

First let me say that is NOT God who is condemning you, it is the Enemy of our soul, and no matter what you did, he and his minions would find a way to condemn you for this or that, which you did. It is a no-win situation.

Here is why I say that: Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Because you are now in Christ, and that is unconditional, and permanent, there is nothing that can condemn you for any reason, EVER!

Romans 8:31
What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Second, what you did was everything in your power to protect your unborn children, even to place your own life in danger. That is how a loving mother would act. Just as the mama bird spreads her wings over the hatchlings to protect them from the weather and attack, you did for them, and IMHO, God in His mercy enabled you to carry the children to their delivery. THAT is highly significant.

Of course they died, and I am deeply sorry for your loss, but the fact remains that the combination of your high blood pressure also called "preeclampsia" created a hostile environment for your children. Through no fault of your own your body treated your children as if they were foreign invaders, and began to attack them. This created a condition that was not life sustainable. No matter what happened, either you, or your children, or all three of you would die.

So you held onto their lives as long as possible, and God intervened, honoring your desire to protect your children and caused your children to be born in the normal fashion albeit pre-term.. Isn't God good for doing that?

Have you considered that God in His infinite mercy permitted you to go through all that so that you would not feel any guilt about being forced to under go something you never wish to consider.

My son and daughter are dead because of me, because of the decision I made. Maybe I would have died, maybe not. Maybe the twins wouldn't have made it in the NICU, maybe they would have. But I let them induce labor. In my weakness I consented to allow them to die. Nothing can justify that. I want to be forgiven, but I have blood on my hands, the very blood I should have died trying to protect.

NO NO NO! that is the Enemy of our soul condemning you. You are a fantastically courageous woman, You sought to honor God, and He blessed you with being able to deliver a boy and a girl. Your hubby was distraught, and he was thinking about going on in life without you. when he urged you to take that fearsome course. Please forgive him for that.

I believe that your testimony should be included in the "Hall of Faith" Hebrews 11
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise.​

You have done all of that through your ordeal, and you remain alive, and better for going through it. Of course what you went through was a literal hell, and you had a "right to be angry with God" for what happened. If you can see that through that pain, and your seeking to obey God's will that you were made into an example that we all should follow.

I hope that this can give you a new perspective for things, and if you like it, I urge you to print it out and share with hubby. God loves you, Muffin, and so do I
 
I thought about the reply while I was sleeping, and I am wondering what you and hubby have done for your grieving your miscarriages as well as your most recent loss of your children. I ask because both of you suffered huge losses, and they need to be dealt with properly if you are to have your marriage survive. Having lost my daughter 6 weeks after she gave birth to our granddaughter from a cerebral hemorrhage, I can understand in a limited way the enormity of your pain.

Its It is not "normal" for parent to bury a child, and the strain of the death of a child often puts enormous pressure on the marriage, and both hubby and wife say and do things that are not healthy for themselves, for their marriage or for their children. One thing that helped us through the trials was an 8 week course called "Grief Share". It is not group therapy, and it is Christian-based. The good thing about Grief Share is that it has open enrollment, and people can come to it at any time, and get benefit. I recommend it, and we went through it together.

Do a web search on "Grief Share" or call some local churches to see if they know on it going on.

If there is none in your area, perhaps yopu can talk to your pastor about it, and if he is uncomfortable with counseling you, perhaps he can give you some leads.

That takes care of some spiritual issues to consider; now I wish to address the medical/physiological and emotional components.

On the medical issues, preclampsia is a very serious condition, and there are a number of underlying issues that should be addressed with your physician. At the same time your physician can also recommend the usage of medications for treating depression. Depression is nothing to fear, but it is serious, and left untreated, it can lead to actions that have undesirable consequences. Sometimes the usages of those sorts of medications are for a short time, sometimes longer. IMHO there is no stigma attached to using them, and if you can use them as a "crutch" and get off them as your physician tells you, there is no adverse effects. BUT that must be done with the physician's help and on his/her approval.


Depression is a condition that generally is associated with being "stuck" in a mood of sadness or grief. Everyone gets sad from time to time. But clinical depression, which comes in many different forms, is typically characterized by a longer-than-normal duration of this sad or grievous mood.

Some symptoms are:
  • Persistently sad mood, "feeling blue"
  • Feelings of hopelessness and a pessimistic outlook on life
  • Guilty feelings, feelings of worthlessness
  • Loss of libido
  • Insomnia, early-morning awakening, or oversleeping
  • Decreased appetite and/or weight loss or overeating and weight gain
  • Loss of interest in hobbies and other social activities
  • Fatigue, decreased energy
  • Thoughts of suicide or suicide attempts
  • Restlessness, irritability
  • Difficulty concentrating, remembering, making decisions
  • Persistent physical symptoms that do not respond to treatment, such as headaches, digestive disorders, and chronic pains from http://www.webmd.com/depression/guide/depression-complications
Of course, I am NOT diagnosing you over the Internet! However if you experience these symptoms, you MAY be depressed; if that is the case, you (and hubby can also have these due to his loss of three children) should look at the resources I gave to you here to help you both out.

Remember that God loves ya,and so do I love ya.
 
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