M
Mac0486
Guest
Did God create certain people to reject Him?
This is mostly pointed toward Calvinist; I'm pretty sure I know what the Armenians believe about this (but if you have valid arguments, by no means are you excluded). I know somebody's is going to bring up Romans 9, so here you go for quick reference (NASB):
Romans 9
Solicitude for Israel
1(A)I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,
2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.
3For (B)I could wish that I myself were (C)accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen (D)according to the flesh,
4who are (E)Israelites, to whom belongs (F)the adoption as sons, and (G)the glory and (H)the covenants and (I)the giving of the Law and (J)the temple service and (K)the promises,
5whose are (L)the fathers, and (M)from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, (N)who is over all, (O)God (P)blessed forever. Amen.
6But it is not as though (Q)the word of God has failed (R)For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7nor are they all children (S)because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "(T)THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are (U)children of God, but the (V)children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
9For this is the word of promise: "(W)AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."
10(X)And not only this, but there was (Y)Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that (Z)God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12it was said to her, "(AA)THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
13Just as it is written, "(AB)JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
14(AC)What shall we say then? (AD)There is no injustice with God, is there? (AE)May it never be!
15For He says to Moses, "(AF)I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who (AG)runs, but on (AH)God who has mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "(AI)FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He (AJ)hardens whom He desires.
19(AK)You will say to me then, "(AL)Why does He still find fault? For (AM)who resists His will?"
20On the contrary, who are you, (AN)O man, who (AO)answers back to God? (AP)The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much (AQ)patience vessels of wrath (AR)prepared for destruction?
23And He did so to make known (AS)the riches of His glory upon (AT)vessels of mercy, which He (AU)prepared beforehand for glory,
24even us, whom He also (AV)called, (AW)not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
25As He says also in Hosea,
"(AX)I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,'
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'"
26"(AY)AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,'
THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF (AZ)THE LIVING GOD."
27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "(BA)THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE (BB)LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS (BC)THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;
28(BD)FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY."
29And just as Isaiah foretold,
"(BE)UNLESS (BF)THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,
(BG)WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH."
30(BH)What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even (BI)the righteousness which is by faith;
31but Israel, (BJ)pursuing a law of righteousness, did not (BK)arrive at that law.
32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over (BL)the stumbling stone,
33just as it is written,
"(BM)BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION (BN)A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
(BO)AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM (BP)WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
A few ground rules...
1. Please keep things in context! That means try to at least read some verses around the verse that you are using to argue a certain point, which brings me to my next point...
2. Please use scripture!!!!!!!!
3. Please stick with the question at hand! Arguments for Calvinism/Armenianism can be found in other threads. I do, however, understand that this question relates to this topic very closely, so I won't automatically condemn all of these discussions.
4. Obviously, this argument completely throws out the concept of Universalism or Atheism. If you are a Universalist or Atheist, please keep out. This isn't an argument about whether any go to Hell. If you have a problem with this you may private message me. I'm a sensible man and don't reject everything someone who believes differently than me says. I know I can't ban either Universalist or Atheist from this discussion, but unless you have something relevant to say (which wouldn't seem likely) than please don't post in here.
This is mostly pointed toward Calvinist; I'm pretty sure I know what the Armenians believe about this (but if you have valid arguments, by no means are you excluded). I know somebody's is going to bring up Romans 9, so here you go for quick reference (NASB):
Romans 9
Solicitude for Israel
1(A)I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,
2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.
3For (B)I could wish that I myself were (C)accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen (D)according to the flesh,
4who are (E)Israelites, to whom belongs (F)the adoption as sons, and (G)the glory and (H)the covenants and (I)the giving of the Law and (J)the temple service and (K)the promises,
5whose are (L)the fathers, and (M)from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, (N)who is over all, (O)God (P)blessed forever. Amen.
6But it is not as though (Q)the word of God has failed (R)For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7nor are they all children (S)because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "(T)THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are (U)children of God, but the (V)children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
9For this is the word of promise: "(W)AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."
10(X)And not only this, but there was (Y)Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;
11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that (Z)God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
12it was said to her, "(AA)THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
13Just as it is written, "(AB)JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
14(AC)What shall we say then? (AD)There is no injustice with God, is there? (AE)May it never be!
15For He says to Moses, "(AF)I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who (AG)runs, but on (AH)God who has mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "(AI)FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He (AJ)hardens whom He desires.
19(AK)You will say to me then, "(AL)Why does He still find fault? For (AM)who resists His will?"
20On the contrary, who are you, (AN)O man, who (AO)answers back to God? (AP)The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much (AQ)patience vessels of wrath (AR)prepared for destruction?
23And He did so to make known (AS)the riches of His glory upon (AT)vessels of mercy, which He (AU)prepared beforehand for glory,
24even us, whom He also (AV)called, (AW)not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
25As He says also in Hosea,
"(AX)I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,'
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'"
26"(AY)AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,'
THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF (AZ)THE LIVING GOD."
27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "(BA)THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE (BB)LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS (BC)THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;
28(BD)FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY."
29And just as Isaiah foretold,
"(BE)UNLESS (BF)THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,
(BG)WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH."
30(BH)What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even (BI)the righteousness which is by faith;
31but Israel, (BJ)pursuing a law of righteousness, did not (BK)arrive at that law.
32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over (BL)the stumbling stone,
33just as it is written,
"(BM)BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION (BN)A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
(BO)AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM (BP)WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
A few ground rules...
1. Please keep things in context! That means try to at least read some verses around the verse that you are using to argue a certain point, which brings me to my next point...
2. Please use scripture!!!!!!!!
3. Please stick with the question at hand! Arguments for Calvinism/Armenianism can be found in other threads. I do, however, understand that this question relates to this topic very closely, so I won't automatically condemn all of these discussions.
4. Obviously, this argument completely throws out the concept of Universalism or Atheism. If you are a Universalist or Atheist, please keep out. This isn't an argument about whether any go to Hell. If you have a problem with this you may private message me. I'm a sensible man and don't reject everything someone who believes differently than me says. I know I can't ban either Universalist or Atheist from this discussion, but unless you have something relevant to say (which wouldn't seem likely) than please don't post in here.