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Destined from birth… for Hell!!!

Did God create certain people to reject Him?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Unsure.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • between No and Unsure (leaning toward No).

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • ...other.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    7

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Mac0486

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Did God create certain people to reject Him?

This is mostly pointed toward Calvinist; I'm pretty sure I know what the Armenians believe about this (but if you have valid arguments, by no means are you excluded). I know somebody's is going to bring up Romans 9, so here you go for quick reference (NASB):

Romans 9
Solicitude for Israel

1(A)I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,

2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart.


3For (B)I could wish that I myself were (C)accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen (D)according to the flesh,


4who are (E)Israelites, to whom belongs (F)the adoption as sons, and (G)the glory and (H)the covenants and (I)the giving of the Law and (J)the temple service and (K)the promises,


5whose are (L)the fathers, and (M)from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, (N)who is over all, (O)God (P)blessed forever. Amen.


6But it is not as though (Q)the word of God has failed (R)For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;


7nor are they all children (S)because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "(T)THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."


8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are (U)children of God, but the (V)children of the promise are regarded as descendants.


9For this is the word of promise: "(W)AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."


10(X)And not only this, but there was (Y)Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;


11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that (Z)God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,


12it was said to her, "(AA)THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."


13Just as it is written, "(AB)JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."


14(AC)What shall we say then? (AD)There is no injustice with God, is there? (AE)May it never be!


15For He says to Moses, "(AF)I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."


16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who (AG)runs, but on (AH)God who has mercy.


17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "(AI)FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."


18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He (AJ)hardens whom He desires.


19(AK)You will say to me then, "(AL)Why does He still find fault? For (AM)who resists His will?"


20On the contrary, who are you, (AN)O man, who (AO)answers back to God? (AP)The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?


21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?


22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much (AQ)patience vessels of wrath (AR)prepared for destruction?


23And He did so to make known (AS)the riches of His glory upon (AT)vessels of mercy, which He (AU)prepared beforehand for glory,


24even us, whom He also (AV)called, (AW)not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.


25As He says also in Hosea,
"(AX)I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,'
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'"



26"(AY)AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,'
THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF (AZ)THE LIVING GOD."


27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "(BA)THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE (BB)LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS (BC)THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;


28(BD)FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD ON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY."


29And just as Isaiah foretold,
"(BE)UNLESS (BF)THE LORD OF SABAOTH HAD LEFT TO US A POSTERITY,
(BG)WE WOULD HAVE BECOME LIKE SODOM, AND WOULD HAVE RESEMBLED GOMORRAH."


30(BH)What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even (BI)the righteousness which is by faith;


31but Israel, (BJ)pursuing a law of righteousness, did not (BK)arrive at that law.


32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over (BL)the stumbling stone,


33just as it is written,
"(BM)BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION (BN)A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
(BO)AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM (BP)WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."



A few ground rules...

1. Please keep things in context! That means try to at least read some verses around the verse that you are using to argue a certain point, which brings me to my next point...

2. Please use scripture!!!!!!!!

3. Please stick with the question at hand! Arguments for Calvinism/Armenianism can be found in other threads. I do, however, understand that this question relates to this topic very closely, so I won't automatically condemn all of these discussions.

4. Obviously, this argument completely throws out the concept of Universalism or Atheism. If you are a Universalist or Atheist, please keep out. This isn't an argument about whether any go to Hell. If you have a problem with this you may private message me. I'm a sensible man and don't reject everything someone who believes differently than me says. I know I can't ban either Universalist or Atheist from this discussion, but unless you have something relevant to say (which wouldn't seem likely) than please don't post in here.
 
God knit together every human being in their mother's womb.

Of course in Calvinism, God knit many of them together knowing full well he would eventually have them tormented in the excruciating fires of hell forever and ever. This is for his good pleasure and will apparently.
 
God loves the whole world and wants to save all people.
 
I believe the Bible stresses that salvation is entirely God's work.

  • In Acts 13:48 we read, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."[/*:m:131c3]
  • Acts 16:14 tells us that Lydia was saved when, "... the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul."[/*:m:131c3]
  • Romans 8:29-30 states, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."[/*:m:131c3]
  • Ephesians 1:4-5,11 reads, "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will ... also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will." [/*:m:131c3]
  • Ephesians 2:8 says even our faith is a gift from God.[/*:m:131c3]
  • In 2 Thessalonians 2:13, the apostle Paul tells his readers, "God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation."[/*:m:131c3]
  • Second Timothy 1:9 informs us that God "has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity." [/*:m:131c3]

Why does God choose some for salvation and leave others in their sinful state is one question that we with our limited knowledge, cannot answer. We do know that God's attributes always are in perfect harmony with each other, so that God's sovereignty will always operate in perfect harmony with His goodness, love, wisdom, and justice.
 
Judy said:
Ephesians 2:8 says even our faith is a gift from God.
Hi Judy.

I come to an opposite conclusion when I read that verse. I read that God supplies the grace and that we are saved when we combine our faith with grace.

Jesus spoke many times on faith and always told the humble that came to Him that they were saved by their faith and condemned others for their little or lack of faith.

Matthew 6:30
If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?

Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, “I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Matthew 9:22
Jesus turned and saw her. “Take heart, daughter,†he said, “your faith has healed you.†And the woman was healed from that moment.

Matthew 9:29
Then he touched their eyes and said, “According to your faith will it be done to youâ€Â;

Matthew 15:28
Then Jesus answered, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.†And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Matthew 21:21
Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done.
One passage that I feel positively indicates this is Luke 18:8. I believe that if God was the sole provider of faith, then Jesus would not have asked this question:

Luke 18:8
I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?ââ¬Â

(edited to correct improper sentence structure)
 
Judy said:
I believe the Bible stresses that salvation is entirely God's work.

  • In Acts 13:48 we read, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."[/*:m:199cb]

Read this passage closer by carefully exploring the preceding context. It is saying that the Gentiles believed where the Jews had rejected the message. God has appointed for Jews to hear the gospel first wherever Paul went. The Gentiles as a people were appointed to receive eternal life upon Jewish rejection of the gospel. And this is how Paul always did it. The verse has nothing to do with God appointing certain individuals to become Christians. It has everything to do with God appointing Gentiles to hear the gospel upon Jewish rejection of the gospel. Luke's point here is that the Gentiles, who were appointed to receive the Gospel upon Jewish rejection (as it happened in this passage), did believe the gospel but the Jews did not. Put another way, you are reading Calvinistic notions into the text which are not there.

  • Acts 16:14 tells us that Lydia was saved when, "... the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul."[/*:m:199cb]

Well this is no different than Acts 2:37. When a Spirit-filled preacher of God speaks to someone like Lydia it is this power which opens hearts. He did not waive a magic wand from heaven.

  • Romans 8:29-30 states, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."[/*:m:199cb]

Paul is here referring to his Jewish brethren whom God had foreknown before the death and resurrection of Jesus. They had been foreknown by God as His chosen people and were predestined as a people to be conformed to the image of Christ in his death and resurrection. This has nothing to do with God picking out who would be Christians before the creation of the world. He has been addressing the Jewish segment of the mixed Jew-Gentile church since chapter 2:7. See 2:7; 3:9; 4:1; 7:1 for example. Also note Rom 9:24 where Paul says "even US." Who is us? The Jews.

  • Ephesians 1:4-5,11 reads, "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will ... also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will." [/*:m:199cb]

It is quite likely you read your misinterpretation of this verse into Romans 8:29-30.

Now does it say "God chose us before the foundation of the world?" No it does not. It says God chose us IN HIM to be holy and blameless before the foundation of the world. What Paul is saying here is that before the foundation of the world that God had chosen for us who are Christians to be holy and blameless in Christ. In this context, US is Paul and the Ephesian church. Before the foundation of the world God chose for people to be holy and blameless in his son. It has nothing to do with God choosing who would be in his Son.

Secondly, Paul is referring to these people being predestined to glory at the end of the age, not predestined to be Christrians. See Romans 8:18-25 and compare with Ephesians 1:5.

Thirdly, it does not say we have obtained an inheritance. I cannot for the life of me figure out why anyone would say that or could believe that. The Bible clearly shows we receive our inheritance when Jesus comes again. For know we are heirs who WILL inherit not that we have already inherited. The actual Greek word means "made heirs."

  • Ephesians 2:8 says even our faith is a gift from God.[/*:m:199cb]

No it does not. The noun genders in the Greek illustrate this clearly. What is a gift of God here in this verse is salvation, not faith.

  • In 2 Thessalonians 2:13, the apostle Paul tells his readers, "God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation."[/*:m:199cb]

The salvation he is talking about it the salvation event that will occur when Jesus comes again. See 1 Thess 5:8-9. All Christians are chosen for salvation when Jesus comes as long as they abide in Christ, the Chosen One.

  • Second Timothy 1:9 informs us that God "has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity." [/*:m:199cb]

Were you granted grace before creation? No you did not even exist. Paul is here saying that before creation that God had purposed this grace from the 0 point of creation.

Befiore the foundation of the world:

Jesus was the son of God not one of the sons of God
Jesus was the Elect of God not one of the Elect of God.

We are elect by being IN the Elect one just as we are sons of God by being in the Son of God.

Why does God choose some for salvation and leave others in their sinful state is one question that we with our limited knowledge, cannot answer. We do know that God's attributes always are in perfect harmony with each other, so that God's sovereignty will always operate in perfect harmony with His goodness, love, wisdom, and justice.

God simply does not choose who would be a Christian. The Bible never says any such thing.
 
All men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, so yes, when you are born you are destined for hell. It isn't until you are born again that you are saved... :biggrin and AMEN for that!
 
Eph. 2:8 is a wonderful v. '...and that...' which sums up everything in the line before hand: Grace and Faith, is a gift!

AMEN
 
Jason said:
All men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, so yes, when you are born you are destined for hell. It isn't until you are born again that you are saved... :biggrin and AMEN for that!

Really? I thought the elect of Calvinist theology were predestined for heaven before the foundation of the world.
 
Proof you don't understand Calvinist theology!

All have sinned...

We are not saved until conversion, God has elected (the word elected means chosen) who would be saved from the foundations of the world. We still need to hear the Gospel, the Holy Spirit then works in the heart to convict sinners. (Acts 16, see Lydia)
 
Jason said:
Proof you don't understand Calvinist theology!

All have sinned...

We are not saved until conversion, God has elected (the word elected means chosen) who would be saved from the foundations of the world. We still need to hear the Gospel, the Holy Spirit then works in the heart to convict sinners. (Acts 16, see Lydia)

Since you are now claiming that every single person was destined for hell before they were saved, tell me that Calvinists believe that no one was predestined to go to heaven before the creation of the world and then we will see if I don't understand Calvinism or if you don't even understand your own belief system.

Tell me that those God elected (in the Calvinist sense) before the creation of the world were destined to hell until they were saved even though they were predestined to go to heaven before the creation of the world. Should be an interesting reply.

And while you are at it, perhaps you can explain why God knits together people in their mother's wombs with full knowledge he is going to have them tormented in hellfire forever and ever because he did not choose them before the foundation of the world. I'll bet your Calvinist God gets a real kick out of doing this for his "good pleasure and will."

Here are a couple of easy yes or no questions to help you out here:

1. Will those God elected before creation (according to Calvinism) surely enter heaven and this destiny cannot be changed?

2. Will those God did not elect before creation (according to Calvinism) surely be tormented in hellfire and this destiny cannot be changed?

I somehow doubt you will have the courage to answer these questions even though they present no false dilemmas to prevent you from doing so.

"Let your yes be yes and your no be no'" - Jesus
 
No, of course not.

Here is my take on salvation being the work of God: Without God, salvation would be impossible, but God does not force salvation on any individual, nor does He create some people that He senselessly bars from salvation to make them hell-bound.

I fail to see any good logic in God deciding people's destiny and choices beforehand. If that is true, why not just force salvation to all instead of having many perish in hell for no apparent reason?
 
Darck Marck said:
I fail to see any good logic in God deciding people's destiny and choices beforehand. If that is true, why not just force salvation to all instead of having many perish in hell for no apparent reason?
And to take it one step further, why would God create this "trial period" and force us all to live on this fallen planet with death, disease, decay, bloodshead, and hatred?

Why not just bypass all that and create the elect in heaven with no choice for Adam and Eve?

And why not just avoid creating the "non-elect" so they don't have to suffer eternally?
 
I'm not God so I can't answer why He does these things. I just know He does them. I know this doesn't really settle anything, but thats how it is.

And most people don't get another point. God doesn't force Christianity on us. We all deserve death, thats a given. Some are "shown" the way to salvation. Noone who sees Christ and knows that He can take away your sins and save you will ever reject Him.

The argument isn't whether we are chosen or not (we are). The true question that is actually arguable is whether or not we can reject God's calling.
 
DIME Ministries said:
Jesus spoke many times on faith and always told the humble that came to Him that they were saved by their faith and condemned others for their little or lack of faith.
No doubt that this faith can be our faith. If God gives us our faith, its still ours. Everything comes from God, no?
 
DIME Ministries said:
And why not just avoid creating the "non-elect" so they don't have to suffer eternally?

well of course He would do that, if His ultimate goal was to keep anybody from going to hell...
 
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