Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Discussions with Bob, the rationalist

2024 Website Hosting Fees

Total amount
$905.00
Goal
$1,038.00

OzSpen

C F Martin D28 acoustic guitar
Member
I'm in discussion with Bob who calls himself a rationalist. He insists that he is not an atheist but a secularist. He supports the Rationalist Society of Australia.

When I discuss his secular life he says that his belief is that no religion should intrude in any part of life. Schools and government should be secular in a multicultural society.

He will not engage with the Bible so he won't engage with me when I use 'Bible fairy tales' (his lingo).

How would you progress in your discussion with him so that you can get him to consider the existence of God and then move towards the Cross?

Oz
 
Last edited:
I wouldnt,he isn't interested in your side of argument. YOU CAN'T make a horse drink water.
 
I wouldnt,he isn't interested in your side of argument. YOU CAN'T make a horse drink water.

I disagree. I wish you lived in a culture that is as post-Christian as mine. They you would know that you need to provide answers for these people.

I'm asking for ideas of a way forward to progress the conversation. I have some views of possibilities, but I'd like to hear the ideas of folks on the forum first.

My culture, while post-Christian, is parallel to that which Paul confronted on the Areopagus (Acts 17:22-34 ESV).
images

What did Paul say when he 'observed the objects of your worship' and they worshipped 'the unknown god' (Acts 17:23-24 ESV).

His view was not that of yours Jason, of failing to engage him/them in discussion - even debate.

Oz
 
It is possible that the example one shows speaks louder and clearer then words.

When Jesus face the same sorta problem He said .. you need to be born again .. real simple..
 
I disagree. I wish you lived in a culture that is as post-Christian as mine. They you would know that you need to provide answers for these people.

I'm asking for ideas of a way forward to progress the conversation. I have some views of possibilities, but I'd like to hear the ideas of folks on the forum first.

My culture, while post-Christian, is parallel to that which Paul confronted on the Areopagus (Acts 17:22-34 ESV).
images

What did Paul say when he 'observed the objects of your worship' and they worshipped 'the unknown god' (Acts 17:23-24 ESV).

His view was not that of yours Jason, of failing to engage him/them in discussion - even debate.

Oz
I live in the least churched area in the nation. Is abortion and gay marriage and pot legal in your nation at all? Gay marriage and abortion in all 50.Two states pot is legal as a recreational drug.

I go by what I feel or can tell.I might be wrong since all I have to go by is what you post.
 
It is possible that the example one shows speaks louder and clearer then words.

When Jesus face the same sorta problem He said .. you need to be born again .. real simple..

Reba,

Sometimes when I read your responses, I wonder if you read my posts. That's the case here.

Who we are in Christ, as believers, and the example we set should always influence others as we demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit.

Who was Jesus addressing when he said, 'You must be born again'? Was he a secular, rationalist?

Oz
 
I live in the least churched area in the nation. Is abortion and gay marriage and pot legal in your nation at all? Gay marriage and abortion in all 50.Two states pot is legal as a recreational drug.

I go by what I feel or can tell.I might be wrong since all I have to go by is what you post.

What is a secular culture? Abortion, homosexual marriage and legal drugs can be aspects of manifestations of a secular society. About 10,000 abortions are conducted in my state of Qld every year, even though it's a criminal offence. Currently there is a push to decriminalise abortion in Qld and I'm just made a 15-page submission against it to the Qld govt. Abortion is legal in the Australian Capital Territory (where Canberra is the capital). There is a legal heroin injecting room in Sydney.

But that doesn't define what is secular. Why don't you begin with a definition of 'secular' so that the rationalist, secularist and I can understand what his values are?

Going by what I 'feel' is an abominable way to start or continue a conversation. I may have had to deal with kids who were scrapping over Leggo blocks, an automated political message on the phone telling lies (which is what I've put up with for the last 8 weeks up to our federal election last Saturday) and I've just kicked the dog over his barking, grating the dog's bowl on the concrete and his pooping on the steps.

And you want me to go by how I F-E-E-L. You must be kidding.:hysterical

Now let's get down to some sensible ways to lead up to sharing the Gospel with a secular rationalist. He's not ready to hear anything from the Bible yet. I need to establish some common ground.

Why don't you thoughtfully present some ideas?

Oz
 
Last edited:
Reba,

Sometimes when I read your responses, I wonder if you read my posts. That's the case here.

Who we are in Christ, as believers, and the example we set should always influence others as we demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit.

Who was Jesus addressing when he said, 'You must be born again'? Was he a secular, rationalist?

Oz
Yes i read your post ..
 
Yes i read your post ..

Your comment didn't indicate you took notice of the content of the OP. Think over your first response and what I wrote about the person with whom I was in conversation.

Oz
 
What is a secular culture? Abortion, homosexual marriage and legal drugs can be aspects of manifestations of a secular society. About 10,000 abortions are conducted in my state of Qld every year, even though it's a criminal offence. Currently there is a push to decriminalise abortion in Qld and I'm just made a 15-page submission against it to the Qld govt. Abortion is legal in the Australian Capital Territory (where Canberra is the capital). There is a legal heroin injecting room in Sydney.

But that doesn't define what is secular. Why don't you begin with a definition of 'secular' so that the rationalist, secularist and I can understand what his values are?

Going by what I 'feel' is an abominable way to start or continue a conversation. I may have had to deal with kids who were scrapping over Leggo blocks, an automated political message on the phone telling lies (which is what I've put up with for the last 8 weeks up to our federal election last Saturday) and I've just kicked the dog over his barking, grating the dog's bowl on the concrete and his pooping on the steps.

And you want me to go by how I F-E-E-L. You must be kidding.:hysterical

Now let's get down to some sensible ways to lead up to sharing the Gospel with a secular rationalist. He's not ready to hear anything from the Bible yet. I need to establish some common ground.

Why don't you thoughtfully present some ideas?

Oz
So you ignore body language ,don't make eye contact and perceive of they arent just interesting in talking.

Feeling ,I sense that.sonce I'm not there to see that I can't say .I hesitate to bother with debates unless I established they are really interested.all too often it's not,a mocking.
 
I'm in discussion with Bob who calls himself a rationalist. He insists that he is not an atheist but a secularist. He supports the Rationalist Society of Australia.

When I discuss his secular life he says that his belief is that no religion should intrude in any part of life. Schools and government should be secular in a multicultural society.

He will not engage with the Bible so he won't engage with me when I use 'Bible fairytales' (his lingo).

How would you progress in your discussion with him so that you can get him to consider the existence of God and then move towards the Cross?

Oz
Rational:
Dictionaries of modern European languages, English, French, German being the basic ones, testify to the fact that “norm”, “reason” and “expediency” are registered among the most fundamental meanings of the word “rationality”. Hence, let us define rationality as reasonably based normativity which guarantees an expedient process of activity. Then the question “What is it to be rational?“ might be provided with the following answer, no matter how general it may seem. A man is rational in his actions if they are performed in accordance with some sensible reasons which make the aim he pursues possible of attainment. Let us clarify our meaning.
V.B. Schneider
https://philosophynow.org/issues/1/What_Is_It_To_Be_Rational

Secular:

What does “secular” even mean?

The short answer: Secular means non-religious.

OK, so what then does “religious” mean? Well, “religion” – as all scholars of religion know all too well – is notoriously difficult to define.

However, in the social sciences, when trying to describe religious life, we refer to the 3-Bs: belief, behavior, and belonging. Religion generally involves one, two, or all three aspects, to varying degrees, and depending on the religious tradition or culture at hand. By belief, we mean belief in supernatural beings or entities, such as God or gods, spirits, angels, demons, jinn, etc. as well as non-empirically verifiable realms, such as heaven, hell, etc. As for behavior, we mean things like ritual performance, prayer, holiday celebrations, fasts, feasts, confession, bat mitzvahs – the myriad things people do in relation to religious beliefs. And by belonging, we simply mean identification with or membership in a religious community, tradition, denomination, or congregation.


So to be secular means that 1) a person does not believe in supernatural beings, entities, or realms, 2) a person does not engage in religious behaviors, and 3) a person does not identify as religious and is not a member of a religious community.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-secular-life/201407/what-does-secular-mean

Maybe for those reading along. I don't need such elaborate definitions.
To me secular just means without God.

So, a secularist is a person without God.
WHY is he without God?

Did he abandon God because it didn't work out?
Does he not believe in God?
WHY?
Because he thinks God doesn't exist?
Because he thinks God exists but He is incapable?

Oz, If you don't have the answers to these questions, you'll be held up in your efforts.
I'm sure you know this, but it's good to state everything for those who may not.

I was speaking to an atheist from Australia last year. It went on for months. From Bondi (?), it's near Sydney. He didn't believe God exists because of the situation the world is in and believed God would never allow this to happen - if he DID exist. He kept telling me how one could have moral values anyway, even without God. He kept telling me that there are no absolutes in life.

So, how did it end up? I can't convince anyone, only the Holy Spirit can.
But we should give it a go in any case.

I refer back to a thread I probably won't ever start and which we touched upon.
Romans 1:20 or thereabouts.

The first thing you have to do is convince him that God exists. If he REALLY believed God existed, he'd believe that God SHOULD BE a part of everything. How does one believe in God (which he might since he says he's not atheist) and at the same time say he's a secularist??
Contradiction in terms? oxymoron?

Plus, this guy used to tell me there's no such term as "atheist", only agnostic atheist. I hate to get imbroiled in terms, so I don't. It gets you bogged down. Once you know you're both speaking about the same thing, just keep going - whatever you want to call it. You're going to disagree with this.

So yeah. How are you rational without God? Who sets the norm? Does Bob set it? Does his friend down the block set it? Do all these rationalists believe the same thing? I doubt it. So I like to take this "absolute moral values" route. Natural Laws. They believe in the Natural Law. WHO made it up? Some guy back when? Why are we born with this Natural Law in the heart?

Why does the universe have a rhythm? Why do universal laws work? How is it possible to have math? Who created the order? Why do apples drop downward? Why is everything held together? Why aren't we just floating away in different bits? (Higgs-Boson).

And what did start the Big Bang anyway? Gases? Where did the gases come from?

This would be my approach. I've used it.
It hardly ever works.
They're too entrenched in their belief system.

Not to discourage you.
Go get 'em!

Wondering
 
So you ignore body language ,don't make eye contact and perceive of they arent just interesting in talking.

Feeling ,I sense that.sonce I'm not there to see that I can't say .I hesitate to bother with debates unless I established they are really interested.all too often it's not,a mocking.

That is an 'argument from silence' logical fallacy. You have concluded about my post what I DID NOT say. It's erroneous reasoning and we can't have a logical discussion when you do this.

Why? Because you didn't deal with the issues I raised. You dealt with matters I did not raise - hence a fallacious argument from silence.

Oz
 
Last edited:
That is an 'argument from silence' logical fallacy. You have concluded about my post what I DID NOT say. It's erroneous reasoning and we can't have a logical discussion when you do this.

Why? Because you didn't deal with the issues I raised. I dealt with matters I did not raise - hence a fallacious argument from silence.

Oz
I defined the word feel.

I have argued ,and my brother even longer with these guys.not one changed.

I guess you failed to get the idea is this a forum or in person question.He called your faith a myth.His mind isn't open.I have the same group in my hometown.

UNLESS,it's lead by God or he leads me to them or they me I won't go up to them and debate.

It's a lesson learned on this forum.
 
Rational:
Dictionaries of modern European languages, English, French, German being the basic ones, testify to the fact that “norm”, “reason” and “expediency” are registered among the most fundamental meanings of the word “rationality”. Hence, let us define rationality as reasonably based normativity which guarantees an expedient process of activity. Then the question “What is it to be rational?“ might be provided with the following answer, no matter how general it may seem. A man is rational in his actions if they are performed in accordance with some sensible reasons which make the aim he pursues possible of attainment. Let us clarify our meaning.
V.B. Schneider
https://philosophynow.org/issues/1/What_Is_It_To_Be_Rational

Secular:

What does “secular” even mean?

The short answer: Secular means non-religious.

OK, so what then does “religious” mean? Well, “religion” – as all scholars of religion know all too well – is notoriously difficult to define.

However, in the social sciences, when trying to describe religious life, we refer to the 3-Bs: belief, behavior, and belonging. Religion generally involves one, two, or all three aspects, to varying degrees, and depending on the religious tradition or culture at hand. By belief, we mean belief in supernatural beings or entities, such as God or gods, spirits, angels, demons, jinn, etc. as well as non-empirically verifiable realms, such as heaven, hell, etc. As for behavior, we mean things like ritual performance, prayer, holiday celebrations, fasts, feasts, confession, bat mitzvahs – the myriad things people do in relation to religious beliefs. And by belonging, we simply mean identification with or membership in a religious community, tradition, denomination, or congregation.


So to be secular means that 1) a person does not believe in supernatural beings, entities, or realms, 2) a person does not engage in religious behaviors, and 3) a person does not identify as religious and is not a member of a religious community.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-secular-life/201407/what-does-secular-mean

Maybe for those reading along. I don't need such elaborate definitions.
To me secular just means without God.

So, a secularist is a person without God.
WHY is he without God?

Did he abandon God because it didn't work out?
Does he not believe in God?
WHY?
Because he thinks God doesn't exist?
Because he thinks God exists but He is incapable?

Oz, If you don't have the answers to these questions, you'll be held up in your efforts.
I'm sure you know this, but it's good to state everything for those who may not.

I was speaking to an atheist from Australia last year. It went on for months. From Bondi (?), it's near Sydney. He didn't believe God exists because of the situation the world is in and believed God would never allow this to happen - if he DID exist. He kept telling me how one could have moral values anyway, even without God. He kept telling me that there are no absolutes in life.

So, how did it end up? I can't convince anyone, only the Holy Spirit can.
But we should give it a go in any case.

I refer back to a thread I probably won't ever start and which we touched upon.
Romans 1:20 or thereabouts.

The first thing you have to do is convince him that God exists. If he REALLY believed God existed, he'd believe that God SHOULD BE a part of everything. How does one believe in God (which he might since he says he's not atheist) and at the same time say he's a secularist??
Contradiction in terms? oxymoron?

Plus, this guy used to tell me there's no such term as "atheist", only agnostic atheist. I hate to get imbroiled in terms, so I don't. It gets you bogged down. Once you know you're both speaking about the same thing, just keep going - whatever you want to call it. You're going to disagree with this.

So yeah. How are you rational without God? Who sets the norm? Does Bob set it? Does his friend down the block set it? Do all these rationalists believe the same thing? I doubt it. So I like to take this "absolute moral values" route. Natural Laws. They believe in the Natural Law. WHO made it up? Some guy back when? Why are we born with this Natural Law in the heart?

Why does the universe have a rhythm? Why do universal laws work? How is it possible to have math? Who created the order? Why do apples drop downward? Why is everything held together? Why aren't we just floating away in different bits? (Higgs-Boson).

And what did start the Big Bang anyway? Gases? Where did the gases come from?

This would be my approach. I've used it.
It hardly ever works.
They're too entrenched in their belief system.

Not to discourage you.
Go get 'em!

Wondering

Wondering,

You've provided a lot of information here that is very helpful. Let me see if I can summarise what you say:
  1. To be rational is to pursue an action that conforms to some sensible reasons.
  2. Secular means non-religious.
  3. Religion is difficult to define, but it involves acceptance of at least 1 of the 4 Bs: belief, behaviour & belonging.
  4. Pursue the existence of God, beginning with Rom 1:20 (ESV), using the existence of God from nature.
  5. As for the bloke from Bondi (which is a famous beach suburb of Sydney) saying there was no such person as an atheist, I would have to agree with him. One would have to look under every rock in the entire solar system and behind every nook and cranny in the universe and all of it at the same time (in case God snuck into where you weren't looking at any given moment), to say that there was absolutely no God - atheism.
  6. We could discuss norms for morality and lots of other things.
  7. However, only God saves people.
I'd like to raise just one point about it being difficult to define religion. James 1:26-27 (ESV) didn't find it difficult to explain. I'll grab a quote or two from a sermon I preached on these two verses a few months ago.

A. Who are the religious?
Do you remember the content of James 1:22-25 (ESV) that I preached last time, ‘The cure for deceitful religion’? Deceitful religion is that we listen to the Word but do not do what it says. Here we are dealing with ‘the cure for worthless religion’. It’s a follow on from deceitful religion. What makes it worthless religion?

Before we answer the ‘worthless’ part, we need to understand what it means to be religious.

1. We face a problem
But it’s not insurmountable – not a brick wall. Here’s the issue:

James 1:26 (ESV) begins, ‘If anyone thinks he is religious’. It uses the adjective, thrēskos, religious. The problem with this word is that this is the only time in the entire NT where the word is used as an adjective. We can’t compare other uses in the Bible because there are none. But when we go outside of the Bible to see its use in Greek, we find some answers.

2. There is assistance in this fact:
In the next verse, James 1:27 (ESV), it speaks about ‘religion that is pure and undefiled before God’. What is pure and undefiled? So ‘religion’ can be either worthless or worthy.
  • Here in v. 27 is the noun related to the adjective from verse 26. The noun is thrēskeia. We also find the noun in
  • Acts 26:5 (ESV) where Paul states that ‘according to the strictest party of our religion I lived as a Pharisee’. What factors caused the Pharisees to be proud about their religion? The Pharisees were very influential at the time of Jesus and Paul. In its Jewish Semitic form, Pharisees meant ‘the separated ones, separatists’.[1] John 9:16 (ESV) helps us to see what kind of religion they were promoting, ‘Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.” But others said, “How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?” And there was a division among them’. What did they require Jesus to do on the Sabbath? ‘There were 39 prohibited groups of activities on the sabbath’ for the Pharisees and they stressed the law that ‘contained 613 commandments (248 positive, 365 negative’.[2] So what kind of religion is it from Acts 26:5 (ESV) that Paul used to practise? It was external religion and that is the negative kind that James is talking about. It’s religion by external appearances.
Thayer's Greek lexicon gives the meaning of thrēskeia as 'religious worship, especially external, that which consists in ceremonies', while the noun, thrēskos refers to 'fearing or worshipping God; religious (apparently from treo to tremble; hence properly trembling, fearful)'.[3] So it is possible to perform external religious ceremonies from a correct motive.

[1] Tenney (1967:647. S v Pharisees).

[2] Williams (1989:428. S v Pharisees).

[3] Thayer (1962:292).

Wondering, thank you for providing such a detailed and thoughtful response. Could Bob, the rationalist and secularist, be practising his own form of religion that has beliefs, behaviour and belonging? I think so.

What I find in discussions with secular, even agnostic, unbelievers Down Under is that they don't realise that they also follow a belief system that has a statement of faith. I try to help them uncover what that system is - and that they haven't recognised it as such.

Oz
 
Last edited:
I defined the word feel.

I have argued ,and my brother even longer with these guys.not one changed.

I guess you failed to get the idea is this a forum or in person question.He called your faith a myth.His mind isn't open.I have the same group in my hometown.

UNLESS,it's lead by God or he leads me to them or they me I won't go up to them and debate.

It's a lesson learned on this forum.

Jason,

I'm looking at your sentence: 'I guess you failed to get the idea is this a forum or in person question'. Do you mean whether Bob is on a forum or in person? Actually Bob is a journalist for a major newspaper who is writing articles hostile to the faith. He identifies himself as a member of the Rationalist Society of Australia. I am challenging him. In the process, another ejournal has given me permission to submit 2 articles for consideration for publication:
  1. 'On the historical reliability of the Bible', and
  2. 'Fairytale fables vs facts of faith'.
These are articles that I've suggested.

You stated: 'He called your faith a myth. His mind isn't open. I have the same group in my hometown'. I actually used the word fairy tale, but myth is good enough. It's not unusual in my secular, post-Christian country to talk with people who don't understand the Bible as presenting anything reliable as history.

Fairy tale religion is a fairly common knee-jerk response, but I have not found Christians to be very good at explaining how the Bible can be tested as an historical document. What points (criteria) would you use to demonstrate that the Bible does not present fairy tales but has poetry, narrative and reliable history in it?

Oz
 
Last edited:
Your comment didn't indicate you took notice of the content of the OP. Think over your first response and what I wrote about the person with whom I was in conversation.

Oz
OZ, I and others will post how we choose, this is a public forum and no ones personal playground..
 
I'm in discussion with Bob who calls himself a rationalist. He insists that he is not an atheist but a secularist. He supports the Rationalist Society of Australia.

When I discuss his secular life he says that his belief is that no religion should intrude in any part of life. Schools and government should be secular in a multicultural society.

He will not engage with the Bible so he won't engage with me when I use 'Bible fairy tales' (his lingo).

How would you progress in your discussion with him so that you can get him to consider the existence of God and then move towards the Cross?

Oz
-
Explain to him that Christianity is not a religion.
Its a relationship with God through Christ, that has been reestablished by God, based entirely on the Blood of Christ as what reconnects humanity to God.
Christianity is God loving us so much, that He came down to earth as a man to die on a Cross to bring us back into His family.////AND THAT is not religion.
Religion is man's effort to save himself, to reach God by his EFFORT, and to try to become like God through works- deeds.

Christianity is God coming down from Heaven to US to take us BACK HOME to Himself.
 
Last edited:
Ask enough questions to lead him to see his own irrationality. He says the Bible has nothing to offer him. Ask him why. Based on what research has he come to this conclusion? If the Bible has nothing to offer, what writings do? etc.

My own experience is that most who wear the badge of rationality with great pride, never have really used it much.
 
Simple... Take a truth he already understands and build on that truth. Don't compete and don't argue. Build and grow on what he already knows.
Easy to say, but hard to implement.
Listen to him....
 
OZ, I and others will post how we choose, this is a public forum and no ones personal playground..

The same applies to me. If I see that you are not addressing what I wrote I also have the freedom to say so as 'we choose to post as we choose as this is a public forum'.

I spoke of Bob, the rationalist and secularist. Would you please tell me how his worldview relates to John 3:3, to which you referred?

Oz
 
Back
Top