Bible Study Do those not born-again go to Hell

[stech1]

I just wrote about this on my blog. My wife also has written an essay about it, with a different perspective from mine. If anyone is interested. You can read mine at http://theologybrief.com/Blog/?p=10. My wife's essay can be read at http://theologybrief.com/Blog/wp-content/uploads/Hell

I apologize for this self plug, but I have feel strongly about this subject and can best express my views in what I have already written.

 

[mutzrein]

The Bible is saying that God is love from begining to the end.

The bible is also saying from beginning to end that God is righteous and just.

It is interesting how people concede that God is love while seeking to qualify God's love as conditional or secondary to Her justice. Mercy is, by definition, the subversion of justice for the sake of restoring the offender. In this sense justice is seen as 'giving people what they deserve'. But perhaps we need to see God's justice as being about restoration, not retribution. Isn't the Risen Christ the preeminent emblem of restoration?

On another note, Karl Barth argues that debating who is in/out of heaven/hell is a sign of spiritual immaturity. It is trying to speculate how God will ultimately judge. He sees this as an extension of pride: humanity as assuming the place of God. He would argue that the best we can say is that God will judge the right way, emphasizing that GOD will judge. When a Christian matures spiritually, the questions about who is in and who is out will fade away.

You make some good points and I wholeheartedly agree, Jesus alone will judge mankind. God has given Him authority to do this. The reason I prompted this thread was to provoke thought & discussion on what the bible says about those who are not born again. The common belief in Christendom is that all who are not 'saved' or born again will go to hell. I contend that they don't. Too often we hear preachers, ministers, priests or whatever deliver sermons that conjure up images of eternal punishment as a means of convincing people they need to repent of their sins and ask Jesus into their hearts in order to escape the flames.

And I contend that this is not the gospel. This is not the means whereby man is born again.

 

[John the Baptist]

The Bible is saying that God is love from begining to the end.

The bible is also saying from beginning to end that God is righteous and just.

It is interesting how people concede that God is love while seeking to qualify God's love as conditional or secondary to Her justice. Mercy is, by definition, the subversion of justice for the sake of restoring the offender. In this sense justice is seen as 'giving people what they deserve'. But perhaps we need to see God's justice as being about restoration, not retribution. Isn't the Risen Christ the preeminent emblem of restoration?

On another note, Karl Barth argues that debating who is in/out of heaven/hell is a sign of spiritual immaturity. It is trying to speculate how God will ultimately judge. He sees this as an extension of pride: humanity as assuming the place of God. He would argue that the best we can say is that God will judge the right way, emphasizing that GOD will judge. When a Christian matures spiritually, the questions about who is in and who is out will fade away.

You make some good points and I wholeheartedly agree, Jesus alone will judge mankind. God has given Him authority to do this. The reason I prompted this thread was to provoke thought & discussion on what the bible says about those who are not born again. The common belief in Christendom is that all who are not 'saved' or born again will go to hell. I contend that they don't. Too often we hear preachers, ministers, priests or whatever deliver sermons that conjure up images of eternal punishment as a means of convincing people they need to repent of their sins and ask Jesus into their hearts in order to escape the flames.

And I contend that this is not the gospel. This is not the means whereby man is born again.

***
Where is the scripture to back this non/scripture up? What 'we' think will not make doctrine Virgin Doctrine. And we have little grounds to be in ignorance today with all of the Truth at our fingertips. See Hosea 4:6, 2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4.

How do you differ from all of these others that you mention in the lump some? Revelation 17:5 And I might just add that you judge, huh? You say, "I contend that this is not the gospel''.

They at least use scripture for their doctrine, while your [posts] hardly ever even try to understand it, it appears??? As surely I must have said before? you have got to get into ALL God's Word to learn! See K.J. on Jude 1:22-23 for the way that God reaches His true folks with the Eternal Gospel!

Notice that even the ones classified as 'cold' have a better 'feel' (Genesis 6:3) for the Holy Spirits conviction than these ones of Revelation 3:16-17 [LUKEWARM] ones! Ask yourself where you fit in??
---John

 

[gingercat]

“go away to eternal punishment.†Because again this to me is consistent with the judgement of a righteous and just God.

I have repeated many times that unriteous will be punished by burning but God is not going to tortur them foreve and ever! This kind of interpretation makes our God so cruel and keep people away from Him. We will be severely judged if we misrepresent Him in this way.

 

[mutzrein]

***
Where is the scripture to back this non/scripture up? What 'we' think will not make doctrine Virgin Doctrine. And we have little grounds to be in ignorance today with all of the Truth at our fingertips. See Hosea 4:6, 2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4.

How do you differ from all of these others that you mention in the lump some? Revelation 17:5 And I might just add that you judge, huh? You say, "I contend that this is not the gospel''.

They at least use scripture for their doctrine, while your [posts] hardly ever even try to understand it, it appears??? As surely I must have said before? you have got to get into ALL God's Word to learn! See K.J. on Jude 1:22-23 for the way that God reaches His true folks with the Eternal Gospel!

Notice that even the ones classified as 'cold' have a better 'feel' (Genesis 6:3) for the Holy Spirits conviction than these ones of Revelation 3:16-17 [LUKEWARM] ones! Ask yourself where you fit in??
---John

Alright John - again I find it hard to follow the gist of your posts but let me see if I can get some clarity. Your 1st paragraph speaks of 'virgin doctrine'. What are you referring to in this paragraph? Is it the fact that I have made a statement without using scripture to support it and therefore this is a brand new doctrine that you haven't heard of. Or is it something to do with Mary?

 

[lecoop]

ROFL

RE: virgin doctrine

Or is it something to do with Mary?

:smt043 :smt043 :smt043 :smt043 :smt043 :smt043

 

[mutzrein]

Re: ROFL

RE: virgin doctrine

Or is it something to do with Mary?

:smt043 :smt043 :smt043 :smt043 :smt043 :smt043

Yeah got me going just thinking about it. My warped sense of humour - couldn't help myself!!

 

[John the Baptist]

***
Where is the scripture to back this non/scripture up? What 'we' think will not make doctrine Virgin Doctrine. And we have little grounds to be in ignorance today with all of the Truth at our fingertips. See Hosea 4:6, 2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4.

How do you differ from all of these others that you mention in the lump some? Revelation 17:5 And I might just add that you judge, huh? You say, "I contend that this is not the gospel''.

They at least use scripture for their doctrine, while your [posts] hardly ever even try to understand it, it appears??? As surely I must have said before? you have got to get into ALL God's Word to learn! See K.J. on Jude 1:22-23 for the way that God reaches His true folks with the Eternal Gospel!

Notice that even the ones classified as 'cold' have a better 'feel' (Genesis 6:3) for the Holy Spirits conviction than these ones of Revelation 3:16-17 [LUKEWARM] ones! Ask yourself where you fit in??
---John

Alright John - again I find it hard to follow the gist of your posts but let me see if I can get some clarity. Your 1st paragraph speaks of 'virgin doctrine'. What are you referring to in this paragraph? Is it the fact that I have made a statement without using scripture to support it and therefore this is a brand new doctrine that you haven't heard of. Or is it something to do with Mary?

****
John here:
There is 'one' FAITH. Ephesians 4:5. Christ was divorced by it (Isaiah 5:3) & started up another Bride 'FOLD'. John 10:16, Church, Fold, Vineyard, Sanctuary, Denomination or whatever? and He gave it authority to loose or bind to the heavenly one. Matthew 18:14-18
These one's alone have Virgin doctrines. Matthew 23:2 & Matthew 25 Virgin compared to heaven.

Mary?? Are you Catholic? No, any 'fold' either has right doctrines and are Virgin as a whole (structure/wise) or they fall into the Revelation 17:1-5 class. Most of these false church folds have a truly messed up set of junk for doctrines!
Yet, Christ 'still' has some of His True Saints in their 'yoked' membership in ignorance, that is what Revelation 18:4 is all about! Christ's last CALL to these ones as earth has its Probational ENDING. Revelation 14:6-10

Hope that this helps you to see that there are some left from the 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3's 'falling away' as seen in Revelation 12:17?
And by the way.. these, as with Israels Virgin ones, have the same history as seen in 1 Peter 4:17 so that His Virgin Doctrines along with the Rightousness of Christ are given for the worlds testing, then shortly follows! 666.

 

[mutzrein]

I'm sorry John - I don't know how to answer you because I don't know what you are saying. If you are able to point to something I have said that you want to contend with, that would help.

What I find difficult is the way you present everything - different colors, underlined, bold type, punctuations, parenthesis', interspersed with scriptural references, and a few words here and there which seem to be used to say what you believe the scripture is saying (I presume). But frankly, I can't understand the points you are trying to make. I do believe you have something to say but the way it is presented distracts and detracts from the message.

Can I ask you in your own words to explain what you mean by 'virgin doctrine' just in plain text and without interspersing it with the other stuff for starters.

Thanks

 

[lecoop]

John here:
There is 'one' FAITH. Ephesians 4:5. Christ was divorced by it (Isaiah 5:3) & started up another Bride 'FOLD'. John 10:16, Church, Fold, Vineyard, Sanctuary, Denomination or whatever? and He gave it authority to loose or bind to the heavenly one. Matthew 18:14-18
These one's alone have Virgin doctrines. Matthew 23:2 & Matthew 25 Virgin compared to heaven.

I can agree that there is 'one' faith. I have to agree because it is scripture. However, what did Paul mean by 'one' faith? I guess he could mean pure, unadulterated faith in the one true God. Abraham had this kind of faith. But when you say "Christ was divorced by it," the 'it' must then refer to the one true faith. That makes no sense at all. You then quoted Isiaiah 5:3, where God said to judge between He and His vineyard. However, verse seven says, "For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel..." Yes, God did divorce Israel.

Jeremiah 3:8
And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce;

What did Jesus mean by the "other sheep" in John 10? The Mormons would have us believe He meant them. I would rather think He was speaking of Gentiles. So I guess you are saying that God turned away from the Jews and turned to the Gentiles. Paul said that "blindness" has come on the Jews until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in.

Then you said, "He gave it authority to loose or bind to the heavenly one." Here the 'it' must refer back to the church from the previous sentence. However, it makes no sense to say "to the heavenly one." What did you mean by this phrase? Yes, it is true that God gave His great authroity on earth to the church. If you look in Revelation 11:17, we see, "because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned." I believe this is where God takes back what he gave to the church. Why? Because the fulness of the Gentiles will have come in at this time, and will have no further need of His great authority and power. So Jesus takes it back to Himself.

What does Matthew 23:2 have to do with "virgin?" Are the scribes and Pharisees "virgins?" The parable of the virgins, which I would guess is what you are referring to in Matthew 25, is called the parable of the virgins because it is referring to virgins: young females that have not been with a male. In the parable they are hired to provide light for the wedding procession, a common practice back then, I suppose.

Therefore, your readers are left scratching their heads as to what you mean. I guess what you are trying to say is that the church has good doctrine. Well, Paul had good doctrine, for he got it straight from Jesus, the head of the church. However, few or none on earth have perfect doctrine.

As an example, probably half of the churches in America, deny the signs that are to follow the believer, according to Mark 16. I hope then, that you will try to write with a little more clarity.

Coop

 

[John the Baptist]

John here:
There is 'one' FAITH. Ephesians 4:5. Christ was divorced by it (Isaiah 5:3) & started up another Bride 'FOLD'. John 10:16, Church, Fold, Vineyard, Sanctuary, Denomination or whatever? and He gave it authority to loose or bind to the heavenly one. Matthew 18:14-18
These one's alone have Virgin doctrines. Matthew 23:2 & Matthew 25 Virgin compared to heaven.

I can agree that there is 'one' faith. I have to agree because it is scripture. However, what did Paul mean by 'one' faith?


****
John here: You could be right, but you are not. : And morons? Well never/mind, huh? :fadein: Anyway, Saul (Paul to be) joined this church in Acts 9:18, you know the one that Christ had just told him what he [MUST DO] in verse 6. Think about that for a space? A killer with real Israel prestige, and joining the ones that he was having executed??? And the one faith of Ephesians 4:5 you are saying means that one must have faith? Hardly so, but even if so, one would belong to the one true faith anyhow, huh? :
****

I guess he could mean pure, unadulterated faith in the one true God. Abraham had this kind of faith. But when you say "Christ was divorced by it," the 'it' must then refer to the one true faith. That makes no sense at all. You then quoted Isaiah 5:3, where God said to judge between He and His vineyard. However, verse seven says, "For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel..." Yes, God did divorce Israel.

****
Me again: Are you getting grumpy? That is what I said! :fadein: Read the whole chapter for their DESOLATE HOUSE of Matthew 23:38 & the 70AD slaughter. Hay, didn't I add Matt. 4:4 & 2 Timothy 3:16 total content?? You know: Fold=Sanctuary=House=Vineyard=Denomination=Church=Woman=Pure Woman=Harlot Woman & on & on!! (you can do some of the legwork)
****

Jeremiah 3:8
And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce;

What did Jesus mean by the "other sheep" in John 10? The Mormons would have us believe He meant them. I would rather think He was speaking of Gentiles. So I guess you are saying that God turned away from the Jews and turned to the Gentiles. Paul said that "blindness" has come on the Jews until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in.

*****
Well, no one around today seems to know what Paul was saying anyhow about the Jews, (2 Peter 3:15-16 or much else for that matter!) but you can rest assured that there is no such thing
as not knowing that there were other 'SHEEP' (FOLD) that Christ had that were not of the right fold! See Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15. Also, John the Baptist was an offshoot of Israel with converts even! John who wrote much was one of them! But what was important & also missed by most was that God the Father included Christ's baptism with the blessing!****

Then you said, "He gave it authority to loose or bind to the heavenly one." Here the 'it' must refer back to the church from the previous sentence. However, it makes no sense to say "to the heavenly one." What did you mean by this phrase? Yes, it is true that God gave His great authority on earth to the church. If you look in Revelation 11:17, we see, "because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned." I believe this is where God takes back what he gave to the church. Why? Because the fulness of the Gentiles will have come in at this time, and will have no further need of His great authority and power. So Jesus takes it back to Himself.

****
Naw, you got it all messed up! And I thought that maybe.. never/mind. You need a re/do on this fullness of the Gentile thing! Romans 8:14. But back to the Virgin Church. Matthew 18:17-18 CLEARLY is stated by the MASTER HIMSELF that.. "Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth [shall be bound in heaven:] and [whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed IN HEAVEN]." Baptism is one of the entrance requirement to have the name of the Book of life, and it also can be removed by unrepentant sin. Anyone can read the verses from 14-18 and understand this without my 'outside' help. :

And if that is not enough? see Matthew 16:18-19! God stands by Word, and the Eternal Covenant is a CONDITIONAL ONE! (for the Church as well, as the divorce verifies)
****

What does Matthew 23:2 have to do with "virgin?" Are the scribes and Pharisees "virgins?" The parable of the virgins, which I would guess is what you are referring to in Matthew 25, is called the parable of the virgins because it is referring to virgins: young females that have not been with a male. In the parable they are hired to provide light for the wedding procession, a common practice back then, I suppose.

Therefore, your readers are left scratching their heads as to what you mean. I guess what you are trying to say is that the church has good doctrine. Well, Paul had good doctrine, for he got it straight from Jesus, the head of the church. However, few or none on earth have perfect doctrine.

As an example, probably half of the churches in America, deny the signs that are to follow the believer, according to Mark 16. I hope then, that you will try to write with a little more clarity.

Coop

Me again: That is enough for now. It seems that your post has called the Word of God a liar? 'few or none on earth have perfect doctrines' Says you. I say that you best get with Matthew 4:4 & 2 Timothy 3:16-17 if you believe that, for you are classed in Revelation 18:4 as a [PARTAKER] then!

 

[lecoop]

John the Baptist said

Me again: That is enough for now. It seems that your post has called the Word of God a liar? 'few or none on earth have perfect doctrines' Says you. I say that you best get with Matthew 4:4 & 2 Timothy 3:16-17 if you believe that, for you are classed in Revelation 18:4 as a [PARTAKER] then!

John, are you dislexic? What kind of grades did you get in school? Let's take a close look at what you have written above, and I will get out a red pen. Yes, I did say, 'few or none on earth have perfect doctrines' and I stand by that statement. So you give us

Matthew 4:4
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

And

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

So I say, what on earth does the price of tea in China have to do with our discussion? Yes, of course we live by every word of God. But who has every word of God hidden in their spirit, and live by it? None. In other words, this verse has absolutely nithing to do with my argument. Next you bring in 2 Tim. Yes, of course all scripture is given for doctrine, but who is perfect in their understanding of all scripture? Again, let me help you out: the answer is, not one person, and no denomination. So again, I say, no one on earth has perfect doctrine, for no one on earth is perfect.

Coop

 

[John the Baptist]

------------------------One Vital Doctrine Of Christ------------------------

2 Timothy 3:16 Tells us that we need the complete whole of [ALL Scripture] to understand the doctrine of Christ. 'reproof', 'correction' and 'instruction in righteousness. And as Christ Himself stated that 'man does not live by bread alone, but every Word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.' Matt. 4:4.

This doctrine is the testing truth of the great whole. The 'd'evil has from the beginning of the bible to its ending attacked Christ. In Gen. 4:7 we see that the Lamb of God Sacrifice itself was attacked! (Christ was the Lamb projected by faith) And in today's setting, we see the exact same Eternal Christ being attacked. Some say that Christ is not God, that He had a beginning, that He is not part of the Godhead, that He was 'just' the Son of God.

Notice the Words of 2 John 9-11. "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. [If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.]"

What is the 'Doctrine of Christ' then? Remember that above it states All Scripture, and Every Word that proceedeth from the mouth of God! There is no way to have the Doctrine of Christ understood any other way!

John for one, had many other books that he was Inspired to write. In Rev. 14:6 we see him start out with the 'EVERLASTING GOSPEL', think of what that means? Now, the 'lamb' in Gen. 3:15 & Cain's folly was the 'centerfold' of the Everlasting Gospel! The Doctrine of Christ is how old? Everlasting or Eternal!
Then comes Paul with what Christ [is], His very moral makeup, His Character, "His Epistle" or letter! He states that this Covenant (God is Love) of Heb. 13:20 is also Everlasting! And that this Ten Commandment 'Epistle' of Christ is to be recreated into the heart & mind of the Born Again ones. See 2 Cor. 3:3 & Heb.10:15-16. So, we see that it takes the Everlasting Gospel which is Christ and His righteousness, the garments of Christ righteousness & His very moral fiber makeup, His Everlasting Covenant to have a Doctrine of Christ! One without the other is not possible.

No eternal Christ equals no Gospel whatsoever, period! That is what satan was having Cain do in Gen. 4:7, and that is what satan is doing today with a Christ that is not ETERNAL! This doctrine has gone off on the path of the 'Doctrine of Christ' as John warned of!

And not only that which we see above, but the word of everlasting or eternal finds no ending or starting period for either the Gospel or the Character of Christ! (His Covenant) In heaven itself before the creation of man, there was the first rebellion that proved to be Covenant breaking. And the breaker of the Covenant stood over the Ark of the Godhead where in were the Royal Law of the Universe. Inside of the Ark was this eternal covenant, which was & still is (Rev. 11:19) covered with the 'Mercy Seat' and which we once again see, represented the 'Everlasting Gospel' of Christ!

---John

 

[John the Baptist]

John here: Only satan would claim that the Word of God is a lie!
And 'some' question ORGANIZATION? Eph. 4:5 "One Faith" (Not just having faith)

John 10:16 "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
(the one true Faith) them also I must bring, and they will hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." (both Zion in heaven & coming into Zion on earth)

Rev. 18:4's Warning! To stay in the wrong fold is a life & death matter! FATAL! Obad. 16.

Matt. 17:18-19 "..I will build [my church]...And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth [shall be loosed in heaven.]" The heavenly Zion is being made up of the saved even today, by Christ's denominational folds labor of love!

Matt. 18:17-18 -The 'one' Faith-or Fold-denomination, church. "And if they shall neglect to hear them, tell it [unto the church:]
but, if they neglect to hear the church, let him be unto you as an [heathen man] and a publican." (wheat & Tares growing together are not Open sinners, my friend!)

Joshua 7:12 tell's where the responsibility rest directly upon the church denomination, If they are to retain the Masters Presence! (Fold-One Faith-Virgin fold)
"...neither will I be with you anymore, except ye destroy the accursed from among you." With the Theocracy of Gods wisdom & foreknowledge, when people were put to death in the old testament, it foreshadowed the removal of a person or persons, from the 'Lambs book of life' in the New Testament. (church Keys)

God has documented that History will be repeated! Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15

One writer put it this way:
"Years before, when the divine purpose concerning Paul was first revealed to him by the Savior Himself, Paul was immediately afterward brought into contact with members [of the newly organized church] at Damascus." And he was baptised by them also! verified in Acts 9.

So Christ recognized those who [he had trusted] with the keys of the kingdom. To add unto, or to remove from the heavenly record books, of the earthly Zion, and the heavenly Zion! In fact He will have it no other way, they will be unified or just will not make it into the kingdom. try John 17:13-26 There will be NO LOSE CANNON IN HEAVEN AGAIN!! Nahum 1:9

Remember that some are against organization. They want to be responsible to no one. Notice as we read on with the same writers wisdom. "Christ...invested [His church] with special authority and power which [no one can be justified in disregarding and despising,] for he who does this despises the voice of God. Those who are inclined to regard their individual judgment as supreme [are in grave peril.]"
This history is before your very eyes once again, and still they claim to follow the Master's Everlasting Gospel. :

Another: by the same author.
" In the record of the conversion of Saul important principles are given us; [which we should ever bear in mind.]......the Savior placed the inquiring Jew in connection with [his church,] there to obtain a knowledge of God,s will concerning him"

A New Thing some teach! We take our orders [directly from Christ!] Read the above again, & we see the evil one bringing in the very same heresy today! Exactly the same! Try Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 once again, What is new God asks? Nothing! As they answer themselves---it must be a fact that we could not be trusted to answer this question, huh??

Again, "Thus [Jesus gave sanction to the authority of His ORGANIZED CHURCH] and placed Saul in connection with [HIS APPOINTED AGENCIES ON EARTH.] Christ had now a church as His representative on earth....(now notice)....Many have an idea that they are responsible to Christ alone for their light and experience, [independently of His recognized followers on earth.] ....but He (Christ) respects the means that [He has ordained] for the enlightenment and salvation of men.."

Some suggest that the early pioneers were not organized! Well, they used to set around a spit-took also, surely you do not suggest that we go back into that?

Lets try some more MEAT from the WORD!?
Maybe we could call these folk against church denomination organization, a loose canon?
Anyway 1Cor. 13:27 on tells us.." Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, [first] apostles, [secondarily] prophets, thirdly teachers, after that, miracles, then gifts of healing, helps, [government's',] diversities of tongues." (Governments?)

OK now, until when? How long do we see the Organized denominational pattern in place?
"And he gave some apostles; and some prophets; and some, evangelists; and some pastors and teachers. For the [perfecting of the saints,] for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the fullness of Christ." Eph. 4:11-13

I hardly see any one with the fullness of Christ around here yet? And unity of the one true faith or fold? You will never see these people in the kingdom of God doing their own thing! Taking their orders directly from Christ some say? They are getting their orders confused with another giving them orders, the one that was in rebellion in heaven for not taking orders!!

Lets try another?
"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, [Jesus Christ] himself
being the chief corner stone; In whom [all] the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord." Eph.2:20

And just this one gift that is despised perhaps? From all of the gifts, lets just read of one?
Rom. 2:8 last part. "...'he that ruleth,.." Well? what did transpire in Acts 15? with James as the presiding apostle.
Just two more, OK?
In 1 Tim. 5:17 "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labor in word and doctrine." So some think that Christ wants a loose cannon, huh?

Organization? "[Obey] them that have [the rule over you], and [submit yourselves]: for they watch for your souls, [as they MUST GIVE ACCOUNT].." Heb. 13: 17

The Everlasting Gospel of Rev. 14:6 first part & the Everlasting Covenant of Heb. 13:20's last part will never be done away with! And all of the above is the TRUTH!
UNITY will only be seen for a select few as seen in Rev.7:3! And that was a free DECISION!

A true friend in Christ for His quickly finished work, John