Do you have to be baptized to achieve salvation?

[Jethro Bodine]

Let's discuss the "baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins". Here is my position, as clear as I can make it.

You must come to baptism repentant. Let me say that again. To be baptized, a person MUST BE REPENTANT. This is what baptism is.

If you mean baptism is a person formally coming forward in a declaration of their repentance toward God, I agree. That's what John's baptism was.

And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." (Acts 2)

A person must repent AND be baptized, not just repent. Baptism is the operative means of "washing away" sins.

But it wasn't before the resurrection. In fact, one of the big arguments of the 'baptism saves' crowd is the tax collector and the thief on the cross, arguably saved without water baptism, did not need baptism for forgiveness/ salvation because it was before the cross. What makes it different now?

And he said, `The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Just One and to hear a voice from his mouth; 15 for you will be a witness for him to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.' (Acts 22)

And so it's impossible to still see his baptism as symbolic of the washing away of sins through repentance born of his faith in Christ? I can see that possibility very clearly.

...why do you keep complaining that I "don't get it"?

Because you say you know water baptism is for repentance and then turn right around and say I'm wrong for saying water in John 3 is for repentance. That shows me you don't get it.

So, a person repents of his sins, then he MUST be baptized for those sins to be "washed away".

It wasn't that way before the cross. And if you say it's because the gift of the Holy Spirit is given with water baptism this side of the cross, then we'll have to agree that nobody with John's baptism was forgiven. John was lying. Think about it.

The difference between us is that you look at "repent and be baptized" as two things, I look at them as one single operation.

What I see is baptism is representative of a change of mind about sin and righteousness and what a person thinks about the Christ. Baptism is not the change of mind itself. Think about it.

This is HOW a person's sins are washed away and they are put right with God. According to Scripture, repentance and baptism TOGETHER is the means of washing sins away, that's what "baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" means.

That was not true for John's baptism. Why is it all of a sudden true now?

Let me get this straight. during APOSTOLIC TIMES AND UNDER THE DIRECT GUIDANCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, baptism became, in your opinion, a legalistic ritual? This can't be your position.

No. It became that after the time of the Apostels, but still very early in the history of the church as I understand it. The church went down hill very, very quickly after the time of the Apostles. Strange, godless, spiritless beliefs quickly took over...like the teaching that it is completely and totally wrong to keep any of the first covenant worship commands for any and all reasons. When I learned how quickly all these things crept in, I was shocked! I used to have much respect for the early church fathers. Not anymore.

Me and the Apostles, apparently. Your view that "water" in John 3 is "baptism into Moses", and this "baptism into Moses" represents repentance, is ridiculous.

Here we go again... The water in John 3 is PROBABLY a reference to John's baptism. John's baptism was what a person did when they turned back to God in repentance. What is the standard of repentance? The law of God of course.

What you need to do--and I don't care if you answer any thing else before this--is explain to me what the first birth by water is in John 3. It's not the second birth (being born 'again") that happens by the Spirit. Water is the first birth (thus the nature of, and need for being born 'again'). So what is the separate and distinct first birth by water?

I'm telling you it must be the birth of a people and nation of God through a return to God through the law of God (aka 'repentance') as signified by John's baptism, but the birth of a natural people and nation of God that is not sufficient for one to see the kingdom of God (for no one is ushered into the kingdom on the merits of obedience to the law). That 'birth', that baptism' is not enough. It's required, it accompanies a legitimate relationship with God, but it's not enough. You must also be born 'again', from above, by the Spirit--a distinct and separate, and additional birth. So what do you say the first birth of water is?

There is no Scriptural evidence to back this up. "Baptism into Moses" is a one-time idiom of Paul and is NEVER tied to repentance.

John's baptism is the idiom. That's what you have to understand to see my POV.

This is what you need to PROVE Scripturally. Where does Scripture call baptism "symbolic" or "representative of" ANYTHING?

I showed it to you:

"John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins." (Mark 1:4 NASB)

"Baptism OF repentance". The repentance, not the baptism, being for the forgiveness of sins. The baptism being representative of the repentance.

Repentance is turning from sin, changing your life around. Certainly keeping the commandments is part of it, but that's not where it ends. God wants it all. My point is you are trying to tie the MOSAIC LAW to Nicodemus' question and assume Jesus' answer includes "the Law" WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE. Why can't the word "water" simply mean water?

It does mean water! But water as a figure of something, not the water in and of itself. What is born of water? What is the first birth of water Jesus talks about that one must have to enter the kingdom of God? So I ask again, "what is born of water?". Tell me. We already know what is born of Spirit, the being born 'again' part.

If you say the water is water baptism then tell me what that means. I think you'll see you have no choice but to consider what I've been saying. Water births a natural kingdom of God, but only figuratively (for what is literally born of water?). The water being signatory of repentance through the law of Moses into a natural kingdom of God's people. Many people did that. That's not enough to see the kingdom of God. That is what John's ministry was--a natural birth of God's people, through the waters of repentance to the law of Moses, into a natural kingdom of people preparing them for the coming of Messiah and being born 'again' by faith in Him.


Taking a break, I'll be back as time permits.

At this point I really want to know what you say the (natural) birth by water Jesus spoke about is, and which Nicodemus doesn't question, and which is differentiated from the spiritual birth by the Spirit. I know you'll want to say 'baptism', so tell me what is birthed by the waters of baptism prior to being born 'again' by the Spirit. Okay?

I'd be okay with you just forgetting everything else for now and just answering that for me.

 

[WIP]

Just want to post a friendly reminder to try and keep our comments on the topic of the thread and not our perceptions of each other.

Thank you.

 

[dadof10]

Well, for one, because it's not an external action, so it's not a "work" per se. There's no physical work being performed.

That would be like saying "lie down" is a work (in fact, such an illustration is Biblical, Heb 4:3,11).

What about the "thou shalt nots"? Not stealing, not coveting, not bearing false witness...These things are all passive, yet take an ACT of the will. Are these things included in Paul's definition of "works"?

And for the record: I don't believe God looks at faith as if it's a work and punches your card, "OK, he's in." So it doesn't function as a work. It functions as a gift -- that is, as the way grace operates.

Perfect! It's nice when someone finally answers a direct question. I agree, it's all by the Grace of God. God gives us the will and accomplishes the work THROUGH us "so no one may boast". We must cooperate with this Grace to be saved (HAVE faith, DO charitable works, KEEP the commandments), but it's all by the Grace of God that we can accomplish anything. It is the same with baptism. God calls us, gives us the Grace to respond to the calling and gives us the GIFT of baptism.

If people would look at baptism (and all the other things erroneously called "works") the same way you look at "having faith", they would understand the verses "baptism, which now saves you" and "you must be born of water and spirit", and realize Paul couldn't possibly mean "everything done" by the word "works", because faith itself would fall into that category. His obvious meaning is "works of the Law".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Salvation is not secured on the merits of your behavior--what you do or don't do that is righteous. Salvation is secured through the faith, all by itself, that your sins have been removed, forgiven, and forgotten through the sacrifice of Jesus.

Your behavior shows whether or not you truly believe and trust in the sacrifice of Jesus for the removal of your sin guilt before God. Your behavior, what you do or don't do that's righteous, whether specifically required by the law or not, does not add to the power of Jesus' blood to remove sin guilt. Jesus blood, applied through your faith in that blood, does that all by itself. Faith is how you apply the grace of God's forgiveness to yourself ('grace through faith')--not the performance of righteous behavior (doing and not doing righteous things).


Behavior is how we show ourselves to have had that grace applied to us through our faith. Which is what we are commanded to do--not so that behavior can literally save us as a meritorious work that secures the forgiveness of God, but so we can be sure we are abiding in the faith that saves all by itself. That's how we 'work out' our salvation. We keep the hope of our faith alive and able to save (as James says) by staying and persevering in that faith by putting it to work. We can know we are staying in the faith by what we do.

10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall (your faith will stay alive--able to save--through use), 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:10-11 NIV1984)

9...dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10 God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12 We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience (the perseverance of faith) inherit what has been promised." (Hebrews 6:9-12 NIV1984)

(parenthesis mine)

 

[dadof10]

If you mean baptism is a person formally coming forward in a declaration of their repentance toward God, I agree. That's what John's baptism was.

No, although that's part of it. What I wrote was confusing because I didn't space and put a colon. Here is what it should have said.

"You must come to baptism repentant. Let me say that again. To be baptized, a person MUST BE REPENTANT.

This is what baptism is:

And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." (Acts 2)

A person must repent AND be baptized, not just repent. Baptism is the operative means of "washing away" sins. "

Peter (the same Apostle who said "baptism, which now saves you") describes baptism here. This is the definition of baptism, and it includes repentance and the "gift of the Holy Spirit". Sorry for the confusion.

But it wasn't before the resurrection. In fact, one of the big arguments of the 'baptism saves' crowd is the tax collector and the thief on the cross, arguably saved without water baptism, did not need baptism for forgiveness/ salvation because it was before the cross. What makes it different now?

I have not heard the argument that somehow baptism changed after the resurrection. I don't agree with it. As far as the Thief, he was saved by faith alone because it's all he could do. It was an extreme circumstance, as is any "deathbed conversion". I don't believe that there is no such thing as salvation by faith alone, just that it's not the normative means of salvation. You are the "alone" crowd, not us. We believe in salvation by Grace, which can manifest itself in different ways. This is where we differ, you believe in salvation by faith ALONE, which is legalistic and rigid. No faith, no salvation. We believe that God's Grace CAN supersede His "rules and regulations". This is why we don't have to twist our brains into pretzels when we run across verses like "water and spirit" and "baptism, which now saves you".

And so it's impossible to still see his baptism as symbolic of the washing away of sins through repentance born of his faith in Christ? I can see that possibility very clearly.

The plain words are: "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.' (Acts 22)

What washes away sins? Pretty simple and straightforward. To believe it's "symbolic" of "repentance born of his faith in Christ" there has to be some MENTION of it, don't you think? If repentance is the thing that actually "washes away the sins", why isn't it mentioned? Again, I'm not saying that repentance isn't NECESSARY for baptism. I'm saying that what actually does the "washing away of the sins" is the baptism. It's not "symbolic", it's operative.

Because you say you know water baptism is for repentance and then turn right around and say I'm wrong for saying water in John 3 is for repentance. That shows me you don't get it.

I have explained it over and over. Where you are wrong is when you say that the water means repentance WITHOUT actual baptism. You are making the case that when Jesus says "water" He means "John's baptism", which translates into "repentance". Repentance is the ONLY thing that matters to salvation. Whether a person actually gets baptized DOESN'T MATTER!!! Is this your position or not? This is where we disagree. You think Jesus is talking about repentance ALONE and that the actual ritual of baptism means NOTHING in and of itself, only a "symbol" of the only thing that matters (to the "water part"), repentance. If a person walked up to you and said "I repent of my sins and I believe in Jesus", you would say: "His sins are 'washed away' and he is saved, NOTHING MORE NEEDS TO BE DONE." Please stop saying I don't get it or clarify your position.

It wasn't that way before the cross. And if you say it's because the gift of the Holy Spirit is given with water baptism this side of the cross, then we'll have to agree that nobody with John's baptism was forgiven. John was lying. Think about it.

This is another one of your mistakes. The baptism of John WASHED AWAY SINS, so does the baptism AFTER John. That's the nature of baptism FROM JOHN on to today, as opposed to before John. You want to make the case that before "the cross" baptism didn't wash away sin. It did. Just because the Spirit wasn't given yet, doesn't mean it didn't wash sin away.

What I see is baptism is representative of a change of mind about sin and righteousness and what a person thinks about the Christ. Baptism is not the change of mind itself. Think about it.

Where does Scripture teach this definition of "baptism"?

I said: "This is HOW a person's sins are washed away and they are put right with God. According to Scripture, repentance and baptism TOGETHER is the means of washing sins away, that's what "baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" means."

You replied: That was not true for John's baptism. Why is it all of a sudden true now?

Who says it's not true for John's baptism?

No. It became that after the time of the Apostels, but still very early in the history of the church as I understand it. The church went down hill very, very quickly after the time of the Apostles. Strange, godless, spiritless beliefs quickly took over...like the teaching that it is completely and totally wrong to keep any of the first covenant worship commands for any and all reasons. When I learned how quickly all these things crept in, I was shocked! I used to have much respect for the early church fathers. Not anymore.

What shocks me is that people will reject what was taught by the immediate successors to the Apostles in favor of 20th century personal interpretation of Scripture.

Here we go again... The water in John 3 is PROBABLY a reference to John's baptism. John's baptism was what a person did when they turned back to God in repentance. What is the standard of repentance? The law of God of course.

John's baptism, which SYMBOLIZED the reality of repentance. You forgot that non-Scriptural part, which is the part I disagreed with.

I agree, if by "law of God" you mean the moral or "natural Law", which would include the law of Moses. If you mean the "law of Moses" only in an attempt to include "the Red Sea" or the "baptism into Moses", then, nope. Of course when someone repents, he does so because he's violated his conscience, which would include violating religious duties. However you are trying to make a connection which doesn't exist between Jesus using the word "water" and "the Law of Moses" and the crossing of the Red Sea. Sorry, not buying it.

What you need to do

OK, then. I have asked you no less than 4 times to respond to the verses I posted that prove salvation is a process and not a one time event. You have ignored me every time. So, if I say "you NEED to" will that actually get you to respond?

What about my contention that faith is an "act of the will"? "You need to" respond to it. There, I hope that will do it.

--and I don't care if you answer any thing else before this--is explain to me what the first birth by water is in John 3. It's not the second birth (being born 'again") that happens by the Spirit. Water is the first birth (thus the nature of, and need for being born 'again'). So what is the separate and distinct first birth by water?

I have addressed this point before by saying that "water and Spirit" is one operative thing, not two and that "water and Spirit" together is baptism. Should I pull the "you just don't get it" card? Naahhh...

I think we've finally found the sticking point. The "first birth" is our actual birth. You are misunderstanding John 3 if you think Jesus means "water" is the first birth and "Spirit" is the second.

"Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him." 3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Just a pause here to say that you can substitute "from above" or "again" here. It really doesn't matter to my point.

"Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

It doesn't say "born of water then born of Spirit". It doesn't even come close to proving your point. Nicodemus misunderstood that "born again" meant two actual physical births. Jesus straightened him out by saying "born again" (one thing) means "born of water and of Spirit" (one thing). I really don't know what else to say, here. To say "water" is the first birth and "Spirit" is the second is to violate the text.

I'm telling you it must be the birth of a people and nation of God through a return to God through the law of God (aka 'repentance') as signified by John's baptism, but the birth of a natural people and nation of God that is not sufficient for one to see the kingdom of God (for no one is ushered into the kingdom on the merits of obedience to the law). That 'birth', that baptism' is not enough. It's required, it accompanies a legitimate relationship with God, but it's not enough. You must also be born 'again', from above, by the Spirit--a distinct and separate, and additional birth. So what do you say the first birth of water is?

It "must be"??? Really??? It couldn't possibly be anything else? Water couldn't possibly just mean the water of baptism, huh? It has to be symbolic for the "Red Sea" and "baptism into Moses" and the "birth of a nation"...It just keeps getting further and further out there.

John's baptism is the idiom. That's what you have to understand to see my POV.

I do see your point of view, I just need a telescope because it's so far out there...

I showed it to you:

"John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins." (Mark 1:4 NASB)

"Baptism OF repentance". The repentance, not the baptism, being for the forgiveness of sins. The baptism being representative of the repentance.

Quite creative...Any port in a storm, I guess. Paul disagrees with you.

"And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.'"

So does Peter. "And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

According to Peter and Paul, baptism is NOT optional for the forgiveness of sins, according to you, it is.

It does mean water! But water as a figure of something, not the water in and of itself. What is born of water? What is the first birth of water Jesus talks about that one must have to enter the kingdom of God? So I ask again, "what is born of water?". Tell me. We already know what is born of Spirit, the being born 'again' part.

If you say the water is water baptism then tell me what that means. I think you'll see you have no choice but to consider what I've been saying. Water births a natural kingdom of God, but only figuratively (for what is literally born of water?). The water being signatory of repentance through the law of Moses into a natural kingdom of God's people. Many people did that. That's not enough to see the kingdom of God. That is what John's ministry was--a natural birth of God's people, through the waters of repentance to the law of Moses, into a natural kingdom of people preparing them for the coming of Messiah and being born 'again' by faith in Him.


Taking a break, I'll be back as time permits.

At this point I really want to know what you say the (natural) birth by water Jesus spoke about is, and which Nicodemus doesn't question, and which is differentiated from the spiritual birth by the Spirit. I know you'll want to say 'baptism', so tell me what is birthed by the waters of baptism prior to being born 'again' by the Spirit. Okay?

OK. I answered it above, now it's your turn, OK?

Obeying "Thou shalt not covet..." and "Thou shalt not kill..." have no effect on our salvation, correct. They are "works" according to Paul because they are acts of the will, correct?

"Accepting Jesus" or "trusting in the Blood of Christ" or however you want to put "having faith" DOES have an effect on our salvation, correct? This PASSIVE ACT OF THE WILL (as the "thou shalt not"s are) is the one ACT that saves us, correct?

How is it that the passive act of the will called "having faith" is not counted as a "work" by the "faith alone" crowd, yet all other acts of the will are?

Now, the other point:

Justification (salvation) is a PROCESS, not a one time event:

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1 Cor. 1:18)

"For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life." (2 Cor. 2:15)

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phil. 2:12)

"What you need to do" is answer these two points you keep ignoring, thanks.

 

[dadof10]

Salvation is not secured on the merits of your behavior--what you do or don't do that is righteous.

Does this view include "having faith" or "trusting in the Blood of Christ"?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Does this view include "having faith" or "trusting in the Blood of Christ"?

Trusting that the blood of Christ is the payment for sin that God requires is not a behavior.

It affects our behavior. But our behavior (what we do or don't do that is righteous) does not secure God's forgiveness as if it was something you worked for to get by doing or not doing the right things. Our behavior shows whether or not we have the forgiveness of God by faith in Christ's blood.

We are justified (declared righteous and free of sin guilt) by what we believe (as long as we keep believing we stay justified before God as guilt free). We also are justified (shown to be free of sin guilt by our faith in Christ) by what we do.

 

[heymikey80]

What about the "thou shalt nots"? Not stealing, not coveting, not bearing false witness...These things are all passive, yet take an ACT of the will. Are these things included in Paul's definition of "works"?

Yes. It only takes a short peek back to Romans 2 & 3 to note that Paul includes works of law as works, just as Paul includes good works as works.

 

[dadof10]

Trusting that the blood of Christ is the payment for sin that God requires is not a behavior.

Neither is not coveting or not stealing or honoring father and mother. Do these PASSIVE "works" effect our salvation? Where does Scripture teach "works" are "any behavior"?

 

[dadof10]

Yes. It only takes a short peek back to Romans 2 & 3 to note that Paul includes works of law as works, just as Paul includes good works as works.

You mean Romans 2 where he writes:

For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

He is saying the opposite of what you are saying. If a man does good "works", he will gain "eternal life". The "works" we do effect or salvation. He then goes on to speak of the Law and those "works" that DON'T effect our salvation, specifically circumcision. As you can see, some "works" actually save, others don't.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Neither is not coveting or not stealing or honoring father and mother. Do these PASSIVE "works" effect our salvation?

Yes, it is behavior.

Someone who does not covet, and honors their father and mother is a well behaved person.

...and showing themselves to be trusting in Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sin. They effect salvation in that they are the required evidences of saving faith that validate that faith as being truly able to save (unlike the 'faith' of demons). They are required because that is the obligatory and expected response of one who has received the love of God in the forgiveness of their sins. As Paul puts it they are, "things that accompany salvation" (Heb. 6:9 NIV).

Where does Scripture teach "works" are "any behavior"?

I think these say that pretty well:

9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace." (2 Timothy 1:9 NIV)

"...when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy." (Titus 3:4-5 NIV)

 

[dadof10]

Yes, it is behavior.

Someone who does not covet, and honors their father and mother is a well behaved person.

...and showing themselves to be trusting in Christ's blood for the forgiveness of sin.



I think these say that pretty well:

9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace." (2 Timothy 1:9 NIV)

"...when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy." (Titus 3:4-5 NIV)

OK, I'm sitting at my computer right now typing, not coveting, not stealing and honoring my mother. If I stop typing and just SIT here NOT doing these things, that is a behavior?

And, on the other hand, ACCEPTING or ACTIVELY TRUSTING, things that take activity of the will to accomplish, is NOT behavior? Do I have that about right?

 

[dadof10]

I think these say that pretty well:

9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace." (2 Timothy 1:9 NIV)

"...when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy." (Titus 3:4-5 NIV)

Oops. Forgot to comment on these. In both verses you mention the word is "ergon", works. I don't know what version is interpreting the word "ergon" as "anything we have done" and things we had done", but I would question why a word that is translated as "works" everywhere else, is here translated as "anything" and "things".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

OK, I'm sitting at my computer right now typing, not coveting, not stealing and honoring my mother. If I stop typing and just SIT here NOT doing these things, that is a behavior?

Yes. You are being well behaved.

And, on the other hand, ACCEPTING or ACTIVELY TRUSTING, things that take activity of the will to accomplish, is NOT behavior? Do I have that about right?

Yes.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Oops. Forgot to comment on these. In both verses you mention the word is "ergon", works. I don't know what version is interpreting the word "ergon" as "anything we have done" and things we had done", but I would question why a word that is translated as "works" everywhere else, is here translated as "anything" and "things".

Here's Titus 3:5 in the NASB, a very literal translation:

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds (Strongs #2041) which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy..."

Deeds, things, work...all these words seem appropriate for what the verse is saying, which is we were not saved because we did something righteous but because God had mercy on us. He says the thing that we are saved by is the Holy Spirit who washes and renews us.

Mercy in regard to salvation means not getting the condemnation we deserve, and not having to do any righteous work, thing, or deed to get that mercy. If we deserved mercy because or our righteous behavior then salvation would no longer be according to mercy but according to payment owed to us for correct, righteous behavior.

 

[dadof10]

Yes. You are being well behaved.



Yes.

OK, care to elaborate?

 

[dadof10]

Here's Titus 3:5 in the NASB, a very literal translation:

"5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds (Strongs #2041) which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy..."

Deeds, things, work...all these words seem appropriate for what the verse is saying, which is we were not saved because we did something righteous but because God had mercy on us.

I agree. My point is to translate ergon (Strong's #2041) in this verse (and the one from 2Tim.) as "anything we have done" is bordering on interpretation. The actual words, according to Strong's are "Not by works of righteousness which we have done..." That being said, I agree with your point here. We cannot make ourselves righteous in God's eyes no matter how much we cooperate with His Grace. It is all about His mercy.

He says the thing that we are saved by is the Holy Spirit who washes and renews us.

Mercy in regard to salvation means not getting the condemnation we deserve, and not having to do any righteous work, thing, or deed to get that mercy. If we deserved mercy because or our righteous behavior then salvation would no longer be according to mercy but according to payment owed to us for correct, righteous behavior.

Agreed.