Do you support OSAS(once saved always saved)?

[Deborah13]

You can abandon the gospel through neglect, or sloth, not just a rebellious outward defiance of the truth. I'm of the opinion this will be how the bulk of us humans will miss out on the kingdom. Passive unbelievers who did not challenge the truth of God with clenched fist in the air, but who simply fell asleep.

What you are really saying is that one can lose their salvation because they SIN.
Not because they choose a Budda or no God at all. Reject believing in the Christ for their salvation.

I don't believe anyone can lose their salvation because they sin because I believe God will sanctify them. He will do whatever is necessary to bring them to repentance or maybe even take their life on this earth. Even if it means letting them live in the pig pen, eating pig slop until they are starving to death and come home begging for bread, wine, and living water.

After you read 1 John, read in the gospels about the people who were surprised as when a thief breaks in at Jesus' coming. And consider those who walked and talked with Jesus and ministered in their gifts only to find out they are not going to be welcome in the Kingdom of God they ministered in their gifts for.

You see that as they were sinning believers. I see that they were not saved.
Are you talking about the Lord Lord people? Who says they were saved? Does the Word say they saved? Obviously they were not!
We are not talking about people who thought they were saved because they did miracles. We are talking Now about people who were Really saved and then rejected the Savior, they no longer BELIEVED.
Don't you see a difference between people who are neglectful and lazy and someone who just doesn't believe anymore?

 

[JLB]

This is true. And I've been purposely avoiding this point. I'm afraid of discouraging someone who has been weak in faith and has moved away from their secure place in Christ. I don't think Christ is quick in closing the door of salvation to those who have turned away from the faith. I figure he knows when it's time to lock them out of the kingdom promise they once had.

Where is that point, before or after salvation, that God turns a person over to their decision to walk away from the truth and makes it so they can't come back? I don't know. But I suppose it good that we let people know it will happen somewhere along the line. And after it does I suspect they can't even care that it has happened....until the Judgment Day when they will beg to be let into the kingdom. Sobering thoughts on this Monday morning.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

Based on the whole context of the writing of the book of Hebrews, I believe this term fall away, is a reference not to a state of being backsliden, but a return to the animal sacrifices in the law.

A return to the law of Moses under the great pressure from the persecution of that day.

This language is seen in chapter 10 as well.

One would think this term was "Apostasy", but that is not the Greek word that is used.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

Based on the whole context of the writing of the book of Hebrews, I believe this term fall away, is a reference not to a state of being backsliden, but a return to the animal sacrifices in the law.

A return to the law of Moses under the great pressure from the persecution of that day.

This language is seen in chapter 10 as well.

One would think this term was "Apostasy", but that is not the Greek word that is used.


JLB

I agree.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What you are really saying is that one can lose their salvation because they SIN.

Ultimately yes. When that sin is not covered by the blood anymore, because their faith in the blood is lacking, they have to pay for it themselves at the Judgment.

Not because they choose a Budda or no God at all. Reject believing in the Christ for their salvation.

Worship of false gods is a sin. A sin that is obviously the result of a lack of faith in Christ. Obviously.

I don't believe anyone can lose their salvation because they sin because I believe God will sanctify them. He will do whatever is necessary to bring them to repentance or maybe even take their life on this earth. Even if it means letting them live in the pig pen, eating pig slop until they are starving to death and come home begging for bread, wine, and living water.

Can you provide some kind of scripture that says this 'bringing back' is guaranteed?

I'll provide scripture that shows that there are those who do fall from believing and do not come back.

You see that as they were sinning believers. I see that they were not saved.

I just see what the scriptures teach, but which the church has taught us to not see. It's that 'the Bible doesn't really mean what it says' mentality in the church today. It's shameful.

Are you talking about the Lord Lord people? Who says they were saved? Does the Word say they saved? Obviously they were not!

The only thing obvious is they will not be found to have been saved on the Day of Wrath.

We are not talking about people who thought they were saved because they did miracles.

Where does it say that?

If these are genuine acts of ministry that they are making their appeal to God for entry into the kingdom upon, then it signifies that they did at one time believe (the gifts are only given to forgiven people), but who somewhere along the line then did not believe, and they're trying to make a case for themselves based on old acts of the Spirit done while they believed and had access to the Spirit.

We don't know the exact reason they will make this appeal to their former works. All we do actually know is they were not saved when they died.

We are talking Now about people who were Really saved and then rejected the Savior, they no longer BELIEVED.
Don't you see a difference between people who are neglectful and lazy and someone who just doesn't believe anymore?

I only see the difference in how they lost their belief.

Neglect and laziness can be the result of a loss of faith, but it can also be what led to a loss of faith. Either way, the outcome is they no longer believe and, therefore, have no ministry of Christ to cover them in the Judgment that's coming.

Whether sinning caused them to drift away from their faith in Christ in preference of that sin, or their sinning is the result of deciding to not trust and believe in the blood is not nearly as important as the simple fact that they did not believe on the day they died and have no hope of passing through the coming Judgment.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6

Based on the whole context of the writing of the book of Hebrews, I believe this term fall away, is a reference not to a state of being backsliden, but a return to the animal sacrifices in the law.

A return to the law of Moses under the great pressure from the persecution of that day.

This language is seen in chapter 10 as well.

One would think this term was "Apostasy", but that is not the Greek word that is used.


JLB

I often hear this interpretation, but see little evidence of it.

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. Hebrews 3:12 (ESV)

Nothing in the context of Hebrews 3 demonstrates that it is speak of going back to animal sacrifices. Rather, he is quoting a passage about the Israelites who wandered in the wilderness and failed to enter into God's rest, and he is then warning them not to fall victim to that same fate due to there being an evil and unbelieving heart in them.

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, Hebrews 10:26 (ESV)

The author is not saying this about one sin, practicing animal sacrifices, but many sins. The Greek word is "hamartanontōn" which is referring to continually sinning with regards to multiple sins.

 

[Deborah13]

Ultimately yes. When that sin is not covered by the blood anymore, because their faith in the blood is lacking, they have to pay for it themselves at the Judgment.


Worship of false gods is a sin. A sin that is obviously the result of a lack of faith in Christ. Obviously.


Can you provide some kind of scripture that says this 'bringing back' is guaranteed?

I'll provide scripture that shows that there are those who do fall from believing and do not come back.



I just see what the scriptures teach, but which the church has taught us to not see. It's that 'the Bible doesn't really mean what it says' mentality in the church today. It's shameful.



The only thing obvious is they will not be found to have been saved on the Day of Wrath.


Where does it say that?

If these are genuine acts of ministry that they are making their appeal to God for entry into the kingdom upon, then it signifies that they did at one time believe (the gifts are only given to forgiven people), but who somewhere along the line then did not believe, and they're trying to make a case for themselves based on old acts of the Spirit done while they believed and had access to the Spirit.

We don't know the exact reason they will make this appeal to their former works. All we do actually know is they were not saved when they died.



I only see the difference in how they lost their belief.

Neglect and laziness can be the result of a loss of faith, but it can also be what led to a loss of faith. Either way, the outcome is they no longer believe and, therefore, have no ministry of Christ to cover them in the Judgment that's coming.

Whether sinning caused them to drift away from their faith in Christ in preference of that sin, or their sinning is the result of deciding to not trust and believe in the blood is not nearly as important as the simple fact that they did not believe on the day they died and have no hope of passing through the coming Judgment.

My point is that they do not lose their salvation for any other reason than the rejection of Christ as their Savior and Lord. They no longer BELIEVE that HE is their LORD and SAVIOR.

So let's get right down to the nitty gritty. Can one believe that they have lost their salvation because of unrepented sin and still Believe that Jesus is their LORD and SAVIOR and know that their salvation is completely in His just hands?
I purpose that they can, I know you don't see this as a possibility. You would say that they have rejected Christ's salvation because they are not trusting in His blood for forgiveness.
I would say that they may very well trust in His blood for forgiveness for all their sins but that they cannot ask for something based on a lie. If one is not Truly sorry for what they have done they are NOT repentant. In my thinking, if one is Truly repentant then if there is/was any possible way to change what they did, they would.
In my case, I can't see how I would ever change or want to change what I did. So I just have to trust the Lord that if I need to repent of that action, the Lord will change my heart, seeing I am completely open to the idea of Him doing that and have prayed and talked to the Lord about that.
So far He has not put that burden on my heart. At the time, the only one that burdened me with conviction was the same pastor who's life and the lives of all his family members had been threatened, which brought about jail time for the offender.
So I believed that I had lost my salvation, not because of lack of faith in His forgiveness for all my sin.
But because my sin was unforgivable until I could repent of it.
So now I just leave my salvation in His righteous judgement, come what may.

 

[JLB]

I often hear this interpretation, but see little evidence of it.

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. Hebrews 3:12 (ESV)

Nothing in the context of Hebrews 3 demonstrates that it is speak of going back to animal sacrifices. Rather, he is quoting a passage about the Israelites who wandered in the wilderness and failed to enter into God's rest, and he is then warning them not to fall victim to that same fate due to there being an evil and unbelieving heart in them.

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, Hebrews 10:26 (ESV)

The author is not saying this about one sin, practicing animal sacrifices, but many sins. The Greek word is "hamartanontōn" which is referring to continually sinning with regards to multiple sins.

Thats because Hebrews 3:12 falling away, is not the unique word that Hebrews 6:6 is.

If they shall fall away , to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh , and put him to an open shame .Hebrews 6:6

This word is used once in the Bible and is unique to the context and discussion of Hebrews.

Nor is it the word Apostasy is in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed , the son of perdition;

It would be easy if this was the word apostasy, but it is not. However it carries a similar meaning.


JLB

 

[jeff77]

What you are really saying is that one can lose their salvation because they SIN.
Not because they choose a Budda or no God at all. Reject believing in the Christ for their salvation.

I don't believe anyone can lose their salvation because they sin because I believe God will sanctify them. He will do whatever is necessary to bring them to repentance or maybe even take their life on this earth. Even if it means letting them live in the pig pen, eating pig slop until they are starving to death and come home begging for bread, wine, and living water.



You see that as they were sinning believers. I see that they were not saved.
Are you talking about the Lord Lord people? Who says they were saved? Does the Word say they saved? Obviously they were not!
We are not talking about people who thought they were saved because they did miracles. We are talking Now about people who were Really saved and then rejected the Savior, they no longer BELIEVED.
Don't you see a difference between people who are neglectful and lazy and someone who just doesn't believe anymore?

Hi Debra, I don't believe that anyone can lose their salvation because they sin, or any amount of sin they commit. I believe that when someone stops struggling with sin they might lose their salvation. When I say "stop struggling with sin" I mean they give up trying to do the right thing and no longer have faith.

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Debra, I don't believe that anyone can lose their salvation because they sin, or any amount of sin they commit. I believe that when someone stops struggling with sin they might lose their salvation. When I say "stop struggling with sin" I mean they give up trying to do the right thing and no longer have faith.

I can't answer that conclusively because I have such a strong belief in the Lords power to save, that He will never cast them out, and that He will not lose one of His own. Only He knows for sure the condition of one's heart.
Unless I am misinterpreting this scripture, and many others...

Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

I think your statement is an encouraging statement, though.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Thats because Hebrews 3:12 falling away, is not the unique word that Hebrews 6:6 is.

If they shall fall away , to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh , and put him to an open shame .Hebrews 6:6

This word is used once in the Bible and is unique to the context and discussion of Hebrews.

Nor is it the word Apostasy is in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed , the son of perdition;

It would be easy if this was the word apostasy, but it is not. However it carries a similar meaning.

JLB

The Greek word is, "parapiptó," which is unique by very similar. Since we have so few examples (only 1 in the NT) of it's usage, it helps to understand the etymology. The front of the word is the common root of "para," which means "from, beside or near." And the latter portion of the word, "pipto" means "to fall," which give us a meaning that conveys the imagery of falling from a position of closeness and nearness.

Nothing about this word conveys that they were falling back to do animal sacrifices, but rather a falling away from a position of nearness. It denotes the relationship the person had with God, and the position from which they are falling.

Not sure how you think this supports your case.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

My point is that they do not lose their salvation for any other reason than the rejection of Christ as their Savior and Lord. They no longer BELIEVE that HE is their LORD and SAVIOR.

So let's get right down to the nitty gritty. Can one believe that they have lost their salvation because of unrepented sin and still Believe that Jesus is their LORD and SAVIOR and know that their salvation is completely in His just hands?
I purpose that they can, I know you don't see this as a possibility. You would say that they have rejected Christ's salvation because they are not trusting in His blood for forgiveness.
I would say that they may very well trust in His blood for forgiveness for all their sins but that they cannot ask for something based on a lie. If one is not Truly sorry for what they have done they are NOT repentant. In my thinking, if one is Truly repentant then if there is/was any possible way to change what they did, they would.
In my case, I can't see how I would ever change or want to change what I did. So I just have to trust the Lord that if I need to repent of that action, the Lord will change my heart, seeing I am completely open to the idea of Him doing that and have prayed and talked to the Lord about that.
So far He has not put that burden on my heart. At the time, the only one that burdened me with conviction was the same pastor who's life and the lives of all his family members had been threatened, which brought about jail time for the offender.
So I believed that I had lost my salvation, not because of lack of faith in His forgiveness for all my sin.
But because my sin was unforgivable until I could repent of it.
So now I just leave my salvation in His righteous judgement, come what may.

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Hebrew 3:12-13 (ESV)

These verses give a great example of how sin can lead to falling away, that a person can become "hardened by the deceitfulness of sin." Which means that sin leads the person to the rejection of God, through deceit it hardens our hearts to the things of God.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Hi Debra, I don't believe that anyone can lose their salvation because they sin, or any amount of sin they commit. I believe that when someone stops struggling with sin they might lose their salvation. When I say "stop struggling with sin" I mean they give up trying to do the right thing and no longer have faith.

Would you agree that people who habitually commit certain sins demonstrate that they are not saved, rather than them "losing salvation?"

 

[jeff77]

Would you agree that people who habitually commit certain sins demonstrate that they are not saved, rather than them "losing salvation?"

That depends I guess. Take for example someone who received the knowledge of God from the Holy Spirit and accepted Christ as their savior and thus received salvation. At the beginning of their Christian walk they did not habitually commit certain sins, but only later started to do this. In this case I think they were saved and then lost. To tell you the truth I will have to think about it more.

 

[Deborah13]

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Hebrew 3:12-13 (ESV)

These verses give a great example of how sin can lead to falling away, that a person can become "hardened by the deceitfulness of sin." Which means that sin leads the person to the rejection of God, through deceit it hardens our hearts to the things of God.

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Hebrew 3:12-13 (ESV)

So I see here that an "evil, unbelieving heart" can lead one to sin and if not repented of a hardening of the heart to the things of God.

 

[Deborah13]

That depends I guess. Take for example someone who received the knowledge of God from the Holy Spirit and accepted Christ as their savior and thus received salvation. At the beginning of their Christian walk they did not habitually commit certain sins, but only later started to do this. In this case I think they were saved and then lost. To tell you the truth I will have to think about it more.

I think you make a very good point here Jeff, there are things that people bring with them into their relationship with God that can take time to overcome.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Hebrew 3:12-13 (ESV)

So I see here that an "evil, unbelieving heart" can lead one to sin and if not repented of a hardening of the heart to the things of God.

I do not disagree with this.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

That depends I guess. Take for example someone who received the knowledge of God from the Holy Spirit and accepted Christ as their savior and thus received salvation. At the beginning of their Christian walk they did not habitually commit certain sins, but only later started to do this. In this case I think they were saved and then lost. To tell you the truth I will have to think about it more.

A wise answer, I appreciate this approach.

 

[chessman]

The Greek word is, "parapiptó," which is unique by very similar. Since we have so few examples (only 1 in the NT) of it's usage, it helps to understand the etymology. The front of the word is the common root of "para," which means "from, beside or near." And the latter portion of the word, "pipto" means "to fall," which give us a meaning that conveys the imagery of falling from a position of closeness and nearness.

Nothing about this word conveys that they were falling back to do animal sacrifices, but rather a falling away from a position of nearness. It denotes the relationship the person had with God, and the position from which they are falling.

Not sure how you think this supports your case.

How would you say "to become unsaved" in Greek?

 

[JLB]

How would you say "to become unsaved" in Greek?

Strong's Number: 543

ajpeivqeia
Transliterated Word
Apeitheia


Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein , and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience. Hebrews 4:6 NKJV


The KJV renders this word as unbelief, while the NKJV has it as, disobedience.

A person does not obey because they do not believe that God means what He says.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Strong's Number: 543

ajpeivqeia
Transliterated Word
Apeitheia


Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein , and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV

Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience. Hebrews 4:6 NKJV


The KJV renders this word as unbelief, while the NKJV has it as, disobedience.

A person does not obey because they do not believe that God means what He says.


JLB

Heb 4:5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

They received the gospel but did not believe it.

From G545; disbelief (obstinate and rebellious): - disobedience, unbelief.

Jer 17:23 And they have not hearkened nor inclined their ear, And they stiffen their neck not to hear, And not to receive instruction.