Doctrine of the Trinity – Is it Fundamental to the Christian Faith

Discussion in 'Theology' started by new covenant preacher, Sep 1, 2017.

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What did Jesus declare "From this present time you both know the Father, and have seen him"

  1. One God manifest in the flesh

    42.9%
  2. He that sees me has seen the Father

    57.1%
  3. Jesus and the Father are one God

    57.1%
  4. Jesus was confused and the doctrines of man are to be obeyed

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. new covenant preacher

    new covenant preacher Member

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    Doctrine of the Trinity – Is it Fundamental to the Christian Faith
    It is the Holy Spirit that teaches us all things and reveals the following mysteries. We are to be led by the Spirit of God and not a man made doctrine of the trinity (Rom 8:11-18).

    • Great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16)
    • God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.
    • The carnal mind is in opposition against God (Romans 8:7)
    • The things of the Spirit of God are spiritually discerned (1 Cor 2:14)
    • One singular God spoke and the world was, not many Gods or persons (Gen 1:26)
    • The only true God, even Jesus Christ who is sent (John 17:3)
    • And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin (Rom 8:10)
    • All the promises of God are in Jesus Christ (2 Cor 1:20).
    • All things were made by Jesus who is the Word (John 1:1)
    • “I and the Father are One” (John 10:30).
    Matt 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

    As you consider the verse above keep in mind Abraham was not a father in the physical sense, but in the Spiritual, through the same Faith that is in Christ. Right now you are most likely thinking, hey hold on a minute Abraham believed upon Yahweh, and not upon Christ Jesus.

    The doctrine of the trinity really starts to crumble when we realize that God does not have a father, and Christ is indeed God.

    Matt 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

    If Jehovah is the father of Christ, how is it that mary conceived through the Holy Spirit? Would this not make the Holy Spirit Christ’s father?

    The Doctrine of the Trinity and Jewish Monotheism
    The doctrine of the trinity is not accepted by judaism. This religious group claims albeit falsely to worship the Father, which is one of the persons of the so-called Christian godhead.

    Matt 10:32-33 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

    • Judaism claims to know and thus follow their God who is Yahweh, and yet they do not.
    • Anyone that denies that Jesus is the Christ is a liar. He is an antichrist that denies the Father (who is ) also the Son (1 John 2:22).
    • They rejected the commandments of God, and only kept the traditions of men (Mark 7:8-9,13).
    • Moses gave them the law and yet none of these false rulers of the people kept the law (John 7:19).
    • Christ clearly stated,” I and the Father are One” (John 10:30).
    • Jesus told them that if God truly was their Father, they would love Him (John 8:42)
    • Most who claimed to be of the tribe of Judah did not recognize the Messiah, and this is still true today.
    • The genesis of judaism most definitely is from the same spirit of deception that was prevalent at the time of Christ’s advent (Mat 22:2-39).
    • The Lord himself gave a sign. Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son; His name is Immanuel (Isaiah 7:14).
    • They are without an excuse. Mary gave birth to Jesus who is called Emmanuel; which being interpreted is God with us (Matt 1:23).
    • Before Christ, sacrifices were made for the sins of the people. After Christ, however, there remains no covering for sin apart from his shed blood.
    • Jesus declared their house to be desolate, and it remains in this condition today (Mat 23:38).

    [​IMG]

    The mystery of God is revealed through the Spirit of God; the Holy Spirit is not another God but the manifestation of Christ in us (John 14:21).

    2 Cor 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

    The manifestation of God in the flesh through Christ is a mystery; the manifestation of the Spirit of God in the Elect also is a wonderful mystery (1 Tim 3:16).

    John 5:17-18 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the judeans sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

    Christ clearly did not allow for the false doctrine of the trinity to hold any weight.

    In Christ alone we can have Redemption and forgiveness of sins; as well Christ is the image of the invisible God (Col 1:14-15).

    What Jesus declared in the gospel of John should easily destroy the false teaching regarding the doctrine of the trinity.

    • If you know me, you know my father also, because I and the Father are One (John 14:7, John 10:30).
    • From this present time you both know the Father, and have seen him; this was possible because God was manifest in the flesh (John 14:7, 1 Tim 3:16).
    • He that sees me has seen the Father John (14:9).
    • I am in the Father, and the Father is in me (John 14:11).
    • The Father hath life in himself; also it is given to the Son to have life in himself (John 5:26).
    The Doctrine of the Trinity is a mystery that is Spiritually Discerned
    Can a person or mere mortal man save mankind from their sins, or forgive them of their sins? Christ was never a mere mortal man, as this deceptive doctrine of the trinity would suggest.

    Christ made himself somewhat of no reputation and took upon himself the form of a servant. He was outwardly like unto man, to give his life a ransom for many (Phil 2:7, Matt 20:27-28).

    John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

    Christ spoke of the Spirit, which they that believe on him would receive. The Holy Spirit was not yet given; because of the fact that Jesus was not yet glorified. And yet Christ had this same glory before the world was (John 7:39).

    John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    • Christ is (present tense). He is always present with the elect in the Spirit.
    • Christ was (past tense). He always existed.
    • Christ is to come again (future tense). Upon His Glorious return, He will reign as King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.
    • Does this sound like a person as suggested by the doctrine of the trinity?
    • Why has a man not yet come up with the doctrine of the trinity of Christ?
    Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, even the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

    It is impossible to truly buy into this doctrine of the trinity, wherein Jesus eternally exists as a distinct person. Christ upon His Resurrection and glorification no longer fits into this neat little box man has created for him, nor did He when He was busy creating the world.

    A new doctrine of the trinity is required with a transformation clause built into it.

    It is a blatant lie to suggest Christ eternally existed as a distinct person. This teaching of a doctrine of the trinity loses credibility, as Christ was transformed, or rather He transformed Himself. This doctrine of the trinity also declares Christ was fully man and yet fully God, and remains in that dualistic state even now.

    John 10:17-18 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

    God the Spirit was manifest in the flesh, which is one transformation. After the resurrection, He was again transformed unto eternal Glory. And if you believe in the deity clause, this was only temporary. In no way can the claim be made that Jesus was fully God and fully man after that He has risen. Well, there goes the deity clause for sure.

    John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

    • One God that was manifest in the flesh.
    • One God equal with, as a result of being the father also.
    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

    Afterwards, there still is one God, and one Spirit is given unto the man.

    Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism

    This doctrine of the trinity, with one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons, may well be one of the greatest lie ever told.

    Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the people; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory
     
  2. billybalke

    billybalke Member

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    On another thread I asked you a question which seemed to get covered by other posters so allow me to ask it on this thread.

    If you were asked the question "what must I do to be saved" what would you tell them?
    btw: I do not hold your position on this thread on the so-called Trinity doctrine.
    Thank you, and God bless.
     
  3. selihah

    selihah Member

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    "The Doctrine of the Trinity and Jewish Monotheism
    The doctrine of the trinity is not accepted by judaism. This religious group claims albeit falsely to worship the Father, which is one of the persons of the so-called Christian godhead."

    Just an FYI you may make better headway if can tell me why YOU believe what you believe rather than accusing others of falsely worshiping our Creator. All accusation do is tell me is you really think you have nothing to learn and have no need to reason with others.

    With that in mind I will tell you why loyalty remains with Yehovah and He alone. What I have found is, in the year 325 a council of bishops was convened by order of Emperor Constantine in an attempt to consolidate power and bring unity to his Empire . After years of some very intense and very contentious deliberation. The 1st Council purged followers of Arian who's theological belief in One God would for obvious reasons mean Jesus was not God or a part of God, and declared them heretics. Furthermore Eusebius of Caesare wrote "...We ought not therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews. We desire to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the Jews for it is surely shameful for us...". In that attempt to separate themselves the counsel by consensus did change the day of sabboth from the seventh day of the week to the 1st. Designate Jesus's birth day the 25th of December. Replaced the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Feast of Ishtar. And the Roman Church eventually officially became the Universal (Catholic) Church of the Holy Roman Empire and sealed it with the the announcement that God had a son and that they were of the same substance and essence.

    Throughout church history these proclamations and decrees have been treated by Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and many sects of Protestantism much like supreme court decisions in American jurisprudence, they are sacred precedents not to be tampered with. Since very few people could read or write and most bibles in circulation were primarily written in the Latin language. It gave the church leaders great sway over the uneducated masses. But it would only serve to eventually fueled fires of the Great Protestant Reformation.
    John Wycliffe is credited with giving us the first English bible around 1380 C.E. The source for his translation was Jerome's Latin texts. Wycliff, a Roman Catholic priest, remained in lockstep with the pro-nicean consensus of his church fathers.As we can read in his translation he defined 'word' (Verbum) as a person or being rather than audible speech when he made reference to it as 'hym' (him). 'Him' being a translation of the Latin words "ipsum" and "ipso" which depending on the context in which it is used means he, she, or it.

    Jerome's John 1:1. In principio erat Verbum, et Verbum erat apud Deum, et Deus erat Verbum.
    2. Hoc erat in principio apud Deum.
    3. Omnia per ipsum facta sunt: et sine ipso factum est nihil, quod factum est.
    4.In ipso vita erat, et vita erat lux hominum:

    Wycliffe's John 1:1. In the bigynnyng was the word, and the word was at God, and God was the word.
    2. This was in the bigynnyng at God.
    3. Alle thingis weren maad bi hym, and withouten hym was maad no thing, that thing that was maad.
    4. In hym was lijf, and the lijf was the liyt of men; and the liyt schyneth


    His translation was viewed by many as taking power away from the Latin church and placed it in the hands of the common man. It threatened papal authority over the masses which eventually lead to John Wycliff being declared a heretic and executed.

    From around 400 C.E. until the Great Reformation the theories of trinitarian doctrines were kept within the bounds of the pro-Nicene consensus and enforced through pogroms, accusations of heresy, and violence. Today however there is no need for such extremes, as the great majority of followers just simply follow going along with the professional clergy or as they used to be called “Nicoliatans” tell them. Both adhere to these creedal statements and writings of their tradition's most authoritative church fathers without giving much of it any thought as to its source. It's now like the song a sparrow learns from its youth is its song for life. Its hard to replace the song of youth.

    continued below...
     
  4. selihah

    selihah Member

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    Starting in the Great Protestant Reformation many re-examined the New Testament translation and rejected a number of later Catholic and Orthodox doctrines as being incompatible with common sense, reason and apostolic doctrines. Many leaders of the Great Reformation initially de-emphasized the trinitarian doctrine and seemed unsure whether or not to confine it to the same waste bin as the doctrines of papal authority and transubstantiation.

    Enter the next translator to make his mark in history, William Tyndale. He had access too and used something Wycliffe did not, the Greek texts of Erasmus and the ancient Hebrew texts. In Tyndale's 1534 translation of John 1:1-4 concerning God's 'logos' it reads as follows:
    John 1:1 In the beginnynge was the worde and the worde was with God: and the worde was God.
    2 The same was in the beginnynge with God.
    3 All thinges were made by it and with out it was made nothinge that was made.
    4 In it was lyfe and the lyfe was ye lyght of men


    The elephant in the room here is the seemingly little known fact that Tyndale did not personalize the 'word' (logos) and instead referred to it as an "it" rather than "him". "It" is a translation of the Greek word "autou" meaning he, or it. By choosing to refer to logos as an 'it' tells me that Tyndale was not influenced by the Jerome's Latin Vulgate, Emperor Constantine or pro-Nicene decrees. Nor were others influenced, as history reveals those such as John Rodgers 'Mathews Bible'. King Henry's The Great Bible of 1539 or The Bishops Bible. All translated God's word as a verbal expression of a thought or idea. Even Miles Coverdale eventually revised his 1535 translation and referenced logos as an 'it' rather than persona.

    Tyndale was burned at the stake for heresy. His charge? A corrupt translation of the Bible. The reality? Papal clergy were afraid of something that he, John Wycliffe and others were not. That the common folk would see their hold on them and realize they did not need tradition and decrees from the imaginations of old men to interpret the bible for them. These times of persecution gave rise to another bible known as the Geneva Bible, which for awhile became the Bible of the English-speaking nations. And as I mentioned earlier 'logos' was not personalized in that translation either.

    Nearly a half a century later in 1582 another translation entered the ring, known now as the Rheims New Testament. It was the work of Roman Catholic scholars based on the Latin texts. Once again these scholars chose to follow the pro-nicean consensus and personalize the latin word 'Verbum' in John 1:1-4 referring to it as "him" in their translations just as previous Papal versions. From this point on many-and-I-do-mean-many, future English versions including one I own the famous 1611 King James version was influenced by the Rheims translation. It appears to have come full circle. Once again the words God spoke is, in the great multitude of translations in circulation these days, referenced as persona according to the teachings of their church fathers instead of identifying it as an audible expression of information.

    Webster's 1828 dictionary defines word as an articulate vocal sound or combination of articulate vocal sounds meant to express an idea or ideas. When God looked at creation and said it was good I include my brain and ability to reason as part of that thing He created and called good. After reading the bible with my own eyes I made my own choice and find myself agreeing with Tyndales and other like translations of John 1:1-4 where the "logos" (word) of God in John 1:1-4 is defined as it is in Websters dictionary; an audible expression of information, motive, thought, wisdom or idea pertaining to Yehovah. In that sense, 'logos' is an "it," not a person, and being the expression of the thoughts of ones mind it is without gender or personality.

    Using the bible as its own commentary 'It' fits the translation as 'it' aligns perfectly with passages identifying the one who created the universe found in Genesis chapter 1 verses 3, 6, 9, 11, 14, 20 and 24 where it is written "And God said..." In my Hebrew bible it quite clearly reveals by name mind you, who it is that created the heavens and earth in Genesis 2:4 " it is written ...Yehovah God made the earth and the heavens". Further clarification how he created it is found in the Psalms 33:6,9 where it is written: By the word of Yehovah were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth... For he spoke, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast. Proverbs 3:9 Yehovah by wisdom has founded the earth; by understanding has he established the heavens

    Now as for the word being the light. It is my understanding when you walk in darkness one should have a lamp to light the way. It is written: “Your word is a lamp to my feet, and a light to my path.”. Following the theme leading up to that verse it clearly reveals the word being spoken of is Yehovah's words, His instruction.

    But if you ask me even that has been twisted by the Nicolaitans and like lemmings the flock follow. Lets say you read a particular translation of John 1-1:4 and it as many today do defined God’s word as ‘him’. Being one of those mysteries you have to ask the professional clergy what that means. They will, like a sparrow, most likely sing the pro-Nicene song of their church fathers and proclaim to you that ‘him’ is a reference to Jesus. Now I don't mean to speak for others but it would most likely lead you to believe if Jesus is the word described in John 1:1-4 then that must mean he is that light everyone must believe and follow.

    Being as there is another translation of John 1-1:4 which defines God’s word as ‘it’ i.e. an audible expression of His thoughts, will or ideas. You don’t have to ask anyone at all. You only have to look and you will find countless references to the words YHVH himself breathed and men wrote down as the those words defined as the light we are to follow, namely His Torah.

    As far as I'm concerned Tyndale was right but unfortunately he was put to death because of it and so it appears to me those church fathers of old still hold sway over the masses.
     
  5. Free

    Free Staff Member Moderator

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    The doctrine of the Trinity is what the Bible reveals about the nature of God. Not only has nothing been given that proves the Trinity false, some of it can really only make sense if God is triune.
     
  6. selihah

    selihah Member

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    I think the latin term for that type of reasoning is called argumentum ad ignorantiam (appeal to ignorance) the fallacy that a proposition is true simply on the basis that it has not been proved false or that it is false simply because it has not been proved true.

    However I can articulate my reasoning to the existence of one God based on both Tanach and even though not necessary your new covenant.

    I said what I did above not to disprove what you believe but because the OP right off the bat accuses me of something without really thinking about why I see things differently than he does.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  7. th1b.taylor

    th1b.taylor Member

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    Duh! Abraham had many children, in the physical sense, 1 of them by Sarah, 1 cby her maid and 7 more by his 2nd wife. Do you ever read to study the Word?
     
  8. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Thanks for the time you spent in giving us scriptures for what you believe.

    I don't use the word Trinity, because this seems to be a controversial doctrine, and the word Trinity is not found in scripture, so I use the word Godhead.

    Forgive me for being slow, but could you sum up your point for me, please.


    Are you teaching Oneness: the belief there is one God, a singular divine Spirit, who manifests himself in three ways, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost (the Holy Spirit).

    The one scripture that speaks to this, but you didn't quote is 1 John 5:7


    For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
    1 John 5:7

    • and these three are one.

    Notice it says these three, are one.

    It doesn't say this One is three.

    If it said this One is three, then I would probably have to hold to some variation of the Oneness doctrine.


    Your thoughts?



    JLB
     
  9. Free

    Free Staff Member Moderator

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    Not at all. The posts have tried to prove something false and I merely stated that they failed to do so.

    If you understand the doctrine of the Trinity, you understand that it teaches there is only one God. That is one of those things that does not prove the Trinity false.

    Were you mentioned in the OP?
     
  10. markathome

    markathome Member

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  11. JLB

    JLB Member

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  12. Free

    Free Staff Member Moderator

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    That version of the verse is most likely false. It's too well articulated to be consistent with the rest of the NT and he time when those books were written.
     
  13. JLB

    JLB Member

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    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7 KJV

    For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

    because three are who are testifying [in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these -- the three -- are one;
    1 John 5:7 YLT


    Based on what the whole of the scriptures say, could you please explain how many these three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are?

    Are these three:

    • 1
    • 2
    • 3
    • other: Please explain


    JLB
     
  14. Free

    Free Staff Member Moderator

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    You know exactly what I am referring to, so I don't understand why you post something that has nothing to do with what I posted.

    1Jn 5:7 For there are three that testify:
    1Jn 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. (ESV)

    1Jn 5:7 For there are three that testify:
    1Jn 5:8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and these three are in agreement. (HCSB)

    1Jn 5:7 For there are three that testify:
    1Jn 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. (NASB)

    1Jn 5:7 There are three that testify:
    1Jn 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three agree. (NRSV)

    As I said, the KJV version of the verse is most likely false. Even YLT recognizes this. It is too clear a statement of the Trinity, too developed, to likely have been written by John. The extra wording is likely a much later addition.
     
  15. markathome

    markathome Member

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    Turning a simple number into a Sacred Idol

    τρεῖς
    treis
    http://biblehub.com/text/1_john/5-7.htm
    http://biblehub.com/greek/5140.htm
    http://www.recyclethebible.org/recycle/index.php?BOOK=62&CHAPTER=5&VERSE=7
    http://www.recyclethebible.org/recycle/greek_lex.php?num=5140
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/τρεῖς
    https://www.google.com/search?q=τρεῖς&source=lnms&tbm=isch&bih=565
    τρεῖς
    Ancient Greek cardinal numbers < βʹ γʹ δʹ >
    Cardinal : τρεῖς (treîs)
    Ordinal : τρίτος (trítos)
    Adverbial : τρίς (trís)
    Etymology
    From Proto-Hellenic *tréyes, from Proto-Indo-European *tréyes. Cognates include Sanskrit त्रि (tri), Latin trēs, Old Armenian երեք (erekʿ) and Old English þrēo (English three).
    Pronunciation
    IPA(key): /trêːs/ → /tris/ → /tris/
    Numeral
    τρεῖς • (treîs) (ordinal τρῐ́τος, adverbial τρῐ́ς)
    (cardinal) three
    Derived terms
    τρῐ- (tri-)
    Descendants
    Greek: τρεις (treis)


    τρῐᾰ́ς
    trias
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/τριάς
    https://www.google.com/search?q=τρῐᾰ́ς&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&biw=1280&bih=565
    τρῐᾰ́ς
    Ancient Greek
    Etymology
    From τρι- (tri-) +‎ -άς (-ás). First use in the Christian theological sense dates back to the second century AD, predating Latin trinitas.
    Pronunciation
    IPA(key): /tri.ás/ → /triˈas/ → /triˈas/
    Noun
    τρῐᾰ́ς • (triás) f (genitive τρῐᾰ́δος); third declension
    the number three quotations
    a group of three; triad quotations
    (prosody) system of three strophes quotations
    (Christianity) Trinity quotations
    Third declension of ἡ τρῐᾰ́ς; τῆς τρῐᾰ́δος
    Derived terms
    τριαδικός (triadikós)
    τριαδίζω (triadízō)
    τριάζω (triázō)
    Descendants
    English: triad

    1 John 5:7-9
    that/because/since ~hoti are/were ~eisi three ~treis
    to be a witness ~martureo
    in/by/with ~en air/heaven/sky ~ouranos <- Heaven
    father ~pater <-Father
    the thought/reasoning ~logos <-Fathers Word
    even/then/also ~kai
    sacred/consecrated ~hagios breath/wind/spirit ~pneuma <- Sacred Spirit
    even/then/also ~kai this/these ~houtos three ~treis
    are/were ~eisi one/only/other/some ~heis
    even/then/also ~kai are/were ~eisi three ~treis
    to be a witness ~martureo
    in/by/with ~en earth/land/country ~ge <- Earth
    breath/wind/spirit ~pneuma even/then/also ~kai <- Sacred Spirit
    water/many peoples ~hudor even/then/also ~kai <- Sacred Water
    blood ~haima even/then/also ~kai <- Sacred Blood
    three ~treis are/were ~eisi into/for ~eis one/only/other/some ~heis
    if/whether ~ei to take/to receive ~lambano evidence given ~marturia
    a human being/in the plural, people ~anthropos
    evidence given ~marturia
    Elohiym/God ~theos
    to be ~esti elder, greater(-est), more ~meizon
    that/because/since ~hoti this/these ~houtos
    to be ~esti evidence given ~marturia
    Elohiym/God ~theos
    who/which/what/that ~hos
    to be a witness ~martureo about/concerning ~peri
    of them/he ~autos son/kinship ~huios
     
  16. JLB

    JLB Member

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    I quoted the YLT as well as the NKJV.

    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7 KJV

    For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 1 John 5:7

    because three are who are testifying [in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these -- the three -- are one;
    1 John 5:7 YLT


    Let's say for one minute that 1 John 5:7 was never written.

    Based on the rest of the scripture, could you please explain how many these three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are?


    The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are:

    • 1
    • 2
    • 3
    • other: Please explain


    JLB
     
  17. new covenant preacher

    new covenant preacher Member

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    Those who demonstrate hatred towards others (not speaking of you JLB) prove the lack of faith in their beliefs.
    To say you understand the trinity and teach others of a God that is three persons, discredits and mocks God. The words God and persons do not belong in the same sentence.

    • There is none like unto God, because there is only one God (Deu 5:7, Isa 44:8, Mark 12:32, Rom 3:30).
    • There is only one God that saves (Isaiah 45:22, Mat 1:21).
    • There is only one God to which every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess (Isa 45:23, Rom 14:8-12).
    Zech 14:9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth in that day shall there be one Lord and his name one.

    Notice it says these three, are one. You nailed it right there
    People fail to realize :
    1- that God is a Spirit
    2- God can't die yet Jesus did indeed die. Well how is it possible
    3- Jesus who existed eternally, represents God manifest in the flesh

    2 Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God through the appearance of Jesus Christ.


    4- the doctrine of the trinity is man made Jesus never spoke of it

    three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit
    The Father is also the Word who is also Jesus our Messiah and when He left He sent His Holy Spirit
    The Holy Spirit is not God, but rather the power of God that teaches us all the truth ??
    The indwelling of the Holy Spirit then is the manifestation of Christ's Holy Spirit within us.

    Isaiah 62:2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the LORD shall name.

    Spirit filled believers understand the Trinity to be yet another doctrine of deception, and understand that they are True Israel of God. Many take the verse above and teach that the gentiles will see the righteousness of the jewish people. However what this verse declares is that the people shall see the righteousness of the King of Glory. Jesus is that King and Lord.

    Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory.

    Christ is the King of Glory, and both Mathew and Isaiah enable us to understand the Trinity is not taught as truth. The prophet Isaiah declares that the sun and moon will be darkened when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion (Isaiah 24:23, Joel 3:15).

    The sun and moon will be darkened before that great day of the Lord (Acts 2:20, Mark 13:24, Mat 24:29). Isaiah and Joel refer to Yahweh reigning, while Mathew, Mark and Paul speak of Christ. The Lord God is one Lord (Deu 6:4).

    There is no unity of three distinct persons, the definition alone is an oxymoron.

    Matt 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

    Did Jesus Himself not understand the trinity? He declares Himself to be Lord and God, not one eternally distinct person of a triune God..

    If indeed the Father was a separate eternal identity, then He could have sent the Holy spirit in his own name.

    One can’t claim to understand the Trinity, and have the full assurance of the understanding of the mystery of God. God is both the Father and also Christ. Jesus said I and the Father are one; He never alluded to two separate persons (Col 2:2-3).

    Thess 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

    When we remove the word and, in the verse above and below, again we can understand the Trinity as a nonsensical doctrine. The correct interpretation is; God Himself even the Father is also the Lord Jesus Christ. Otherwise we may understand the Trinity in this verse as three without the Spirit.

    Those who loudly proclaim they understand the Trinity, look to misinterpreted scriptures to validate their false claims.

    2 Thess 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

    The word and, used here and in many other verses is used to separate Christ from His rightful position of God.

    Instead of inserting the word and, which is a continuative we must refer to the correct word.

    In this case and in many others the word and should actually be changed to even so, also or likewise (G2532).

    Also, likewise and indeed are used as connectors; if you have seen the Son likewise you have seen the Father.

    2 Tim 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, (who is indeed the) Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom
     
  18. JLB

    JLB Member

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    Again, you have used a lot of scriptures, but not 1 John 5:7.

    For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
    1 John 5:7

    • and these three are one.

    Notice it says these three, are one.

    It doesn't say this One is three.

    If it said this One is three, then I would probably have to hold to some variation of the Oneness doctrine.


    Let's say for one minute that 1 John 5:7 was never written.

    Based on the rest of the scripture, could you please explain how many these three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are?


    The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are:

    • 1
    • 2
    • 3
    • other: Please explain


    JLB
     
  19. new covenant preacher

    new covenant preacher Member

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    Respectively, I answered your question and your bias has prevented you from looking at not my opinion, but the very Word of God, on who He is in the singular.
    The Father, the Son of Man, the Lamb of God, the Messiah, the Almighty God, the Redeemer the Prince of Peace the Alpha and Omega all of these names are speaking of one God.

    And you are omly interested in the one verse that you try and use to prove your point?
    Thats fine with me but what is the point?
     
  20. new covenant preacher

    new covenant preacher Member

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    But without controversy this great mystery is understood by comprehending the Awesome power demonstrated, when God was manifest in the flesh (1 Tim 3:16).

    John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

    Jesus in the flesh did not become another God at all; he did however proceed or come forth from God, as the visible manifestation of God Himself.

    John 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

    The earthly appearance of Christ Jesus represents the one true God; with many majestic names - that sacrificed a part of himself for us in the flesh. Once He returned to the father the singularity of God was as it was before He arrived.

    John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

    The mystery of the trinity is revealed as yet another man made doctrine of deception.

    1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    There is no real mystery of the trinity; God was manifest in the flesh, and revealed to the world as Jesus the Christ. Christ always was, is, and will forever be God.

    Although one could refer to the manifestation of Jesus in the flesh as a person, it must be understood that he is unlike any other. He was not created from the seed of man, was sinless and had the power to rise from the dead unassisted (John 10:18). When one adds Christ to the name of Jesus, the mystery of the trinity dissolves. Christ is not a person, but is God, and death is not possible for an Eternal God.

    John 4:24 God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.

    The carnal mind is in opposition against God, for it has not submitted to the law of God, nor can it (Romans 8:7). It is this carnal mind that creates the mystery of the trinity.

    [​IMG]

    People generally speaking are attracted to the wisdom of men, especially those who have graduated from a theological seminary or college. Many religious leaders speak of the mystery of the trinity, or use words such as hermeneutics, exegesis or trinitarian theology. Congregations become enamored with the supposed superior spiritual intellect of these leaders, and their ostentatious words.

    John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    It is the institution of the Holy Spirit whereby we are taught to rightly divide the Word of Truth, enabling us to then share these truths with others. God does this and not man.

    Instead of receiving a diploma from a man made institution of deception, true followers of Christ are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Eph 1:13). Our graduation ceremony is when Christ returns with our Salvation, and says well done faithful servant (Math 25:21).

    1 Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    Too many people readily accept the mystery of the trinity doctrine as an essential teaching because self proclaimed ministers say it is so. Without the teaching of the Holy Spirit, men speak with their own wisdom which is dangerous and destructive.

    The simple believes every word but the wise considers all things (Prov 14:15; Rom 16:18).

    The genesis of the mystery of the trinity may be as a result of the obvious mistranslation from a verse many are familiar with. God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness”.

    When one removes the inserted words, let us and our, the verse takes on a completely different meaning.

    One singular God spoke, not many Gods or persons.

    The so-called mystery of the trinity does not add clarity to the nature of God, and it certainly diminishes the essence and Glory of Jesus.

    John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

    The first use of the word and (G 1161) in the above verse is used correctly, as it is a continuative. The second use of the word and (G2352) should be translated as even, also or indeed, as it is a connector. The words thou hast, need to be completely removed from this verse as well.

    The correct interpretation of this verse is as follows.

    And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, even Jesus Christ, whom is sent forth.

    The only True God is also known as Jesus Christ, the Word and our Messiah.
     

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