DOES GOD WANT CHRISTIANS TO FEAR HIM?

[TLSITD]

Christian virtues should be like Christ’s virtues.
Christ is The Son of God.
Your claim is self-defeating.

God wants Christians to exhibit the same quality that He Himself desires to be known by and prizes most highly. That love is not the only attribute of God's character is obvious by reading the Scriptures in their entirety. (Or you could just take some verses out of the Scriptures and draw a conclusion from them, disregarding the others that contradict your conclusion, and believe whatever you want to believe. I recommend taking the entire body of Scripture into consideration when trying to come to the understanding of what God is like and how He works, without bias.)

 

[Jim Parker]

We know that God wants us to love Him, but does He also want us to fear Him? The answer, if we examine the Scriptures, is clearly, YES. The fear of the Lord is not a relic of the Old Covenant; Christians are instructed and reminded to fear God in the New Testament also.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling... (Philippians 2:12 ESV)

But why? If God is love, and if we are saved, why would God want us to fear Him?

The answer is, because the fear of God protects us from sin and its consequences, which is what our loving God wants.

So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria had peace and was being built up. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it multiplied. (Acts 9:31 ESV)

Contrary to popular belief and teaching, it is not merely gratitude and feelings of love for God that keeps Christians from sinning and leads them to obey Him---at least it shouldn't be, according to the Bible---but also rightful fear. The fear comes from knowing that if we choose to despise Him, God has the power to chasten (discipline) us, and even to take away our eternal life, if we stubbornly persist in willful sin after coming to be in Christ, by refusing to do what we know He wants us to do and what He commands us. (See Hebrews 10:26-31)

For Christians, the fear of God should be a holy fear---not a guilty terror, as the unsaved have. We know that God loves us, and that we are saved because of His love and His mercy---forgiven of our sins and assured of eternity with Him when we die, through our faith in Jesus Christ---for which reason we have joy, confidence, and peace. But we should also bear in mind that this promise is not unconditionally guaranteed to us, and that if we choose to despise the Lord and refuse to repent, He is able to take away what He gave us. (See John 15:5,6,9-11; Romans 11:19-22)

That knowledge is wisdom, and it helps to keep us from doing evil things that we would otherwise consider or take lightly---even preserving our physical lives at the cost of disobeying the Lord.

The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, that one may turn away from the snares of death. (Proverbs 14:27 ESV)

(Of course, if you have been following my threads, you can see the relevance of this exhortation and reminder: If you don't fear God so as to obey Him in the easy times, much less will you be faithful to Him in the worst of times, when your physical life is on the line. Don't fool yourself!)

This is what Jesus said, speaking to His own disciples:

"I tell you, My friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear Him who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!" (Luke 12:4,5 ESV)

The fear of the Lord produces good things: It leads us to turn away from evil, helps us to deny the strongest temptations of sin, and produces a rightful reverence for God in us that we won't have without it.

"A son honors his father, and a servant his master. If then I am a Father, where is My honor? And if I am a Master, where is My fear? says the LORD of hosts to you, O priests, who despise My name?" (Malachi 1:6 ESV)

(Where indeed, O people of God?)

The faith of those Old Testament saints that we so admire was coupled with the fear of the Lord, and it was their strength to withstand temptation and their motivation to obey God, for which He blessed and rewarded them.

The God of the Old Testament and the God of the New are the very same God. He has not changed His attributes or His attitudes. If we believe that He has, we deceive ourselves. God still wants His people to fear Him, just as He wants us to love Him. The love of God is to keep His commandments, and the fear of Him helps us to obey Him, which we would be more lax about if we did not---potentially to our own spiritual peril.

Yes, God is love, and part of that love is to protect His sheep. This is why He wants and commands us to fear Him; because He knows that mere gratitude to Him and the desire to do what pleases Him because we love Him is not enough to turn us away from strong temptation. We need to fear Him also, just as we would fear a parent who we know loves us, but also has the ability to punish us for doing what we know we know we ought not to.

God says that He is love because that is the attribute by which He desires to be known by man, not because He doesn't have other attributes in equal measure: It is not a matter of what He is, but of what He chooses to show.

God has the potential for as much wrath as He has for love (the evidence being that the unsaved will suffer His wrath for all eternity just as the saved will enjoy His peace and joy for all eternity); but He desires to show more mercy and love to man than He does justified wrath.

Like a jewel with equal facets, the one that faces the light is the one that shines; but that doesn't mean that the jewel has only one facet. The man-ward facet of God is love; but it's quite obvious from the Scriptures that that is not His only attribute, and that God's mercy and patience toward man are not infinite. There will be an end to His patience with impenitent men, and there will also be wrath for those who choose not to continue in His kindness after receiving His mercy.

David was a man who loved God with all of his heart, soul, mind and strength, a man who delighted in the Lord, and who was a man after God's own heart---not because he was perfect, but because he was sincere. And David, who knew God very well, feared God, and wrote much about the fear of the Lord and its benefits.

The Christian who loves God, as David loved God---who is keeping His commandments to the best of his or her ability and who is doing what he or she knows to be His will and pleasing to Him to the best of his or her ability, and desires to do the same, will not have guilty fear, for perfect love casts out the fear of rightful punishment for willful sin. A Christian with a good conscience toward God for the aforementioned reasons will not have this kind of fear; but we should all walk in the fear of our awesome God, who has the power both to chasten us and to condemn us. As long as we have our sinful nature, the fear of God is both essential and relevant.

"I tell you, My friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear Him who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!"
(Luke 12:4,5 ESV)

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego answered and said to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. If this be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. But if not, be it know to you, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up." (Daniel 3:16-18 ESV)

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of His anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
(Revelation 14:9-12 ESV)

Like!

 

[Jim Parker]

HOWEVER:::::
That "fear of God" is not because God is just waiting for me to do something wrong so He can throw me into the fires of hell.
The "fear of God" is that He will do exactly what He said He would do when he judged all mankind. (See Mat 25:31-46)
He said the following would be the outcome
Those who made it their habit to do acts of love and mercy (thus imitating God's love and mercy) inherit the kingdom which was prepared for them from the beginning of time because God wanted us to enjoy eternal life.
Those who made it their habit to ignore opportunities to do acts of of love and mercy (thus imitating the devil's lack of love and mercy) get to go hang out with the devil in the flames of hell which would then be moved to the "lake of burning sulfur" (brimstone).

That God will do as He says He will do should be a frightful concept for those who practice evil.
Gal 6:7-8 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

So we fear God the same way we would fear a judge who, upon our being convicted of crime, will pronounce a sentence.
There are two verdicts which God will pronounce: Eternal life or the second death.
Don't worry about what God will do; He loves you but will do what is right.
Fear the second death.

further ramblings of
iakov the fool

 

[Chopper]

Yes we should, the fear of God has been lost in the Church. This video really hit me hard when I watched it. This is the kind of preachers we need today.

This video is a definite "Chopper Home Run" Thank you so much for supplying it. Before revival ever comes, the fear of God must take hold of all the Preachers/Teachers in the organized Churches and then in the every day activities of folk who call themselves "Born Again".

Why fear God? 1. Because He commands that we do. 2. It leads to not sinning, and offending the Holy God. 3. There will be liberty at the Throne of Jesus.

 

[Honey]

We know that God wants us to love Him, but does He also want us to fear Him? The answer, if we examine the Scriptures, is clearly, YES. The fear of the Lord is not a relic of the Old Covenant; Christians are instructed and reminded to fear God in the New Testament also.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling... (Philippians 2:12 ESV)

But why? If God is love, and if we are saved, why would God want us to fear Him?

The answer is, because the fear of God protects us from sin and its consequences, which is what our loving God wants.

So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria had peace and was being built up. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it multiplied. (Acts 9:31 ESV)

Contrary to popular belief and teaching, it is not merely gratitude and feelings of love for God that keeps Christians from sinning and leads them to obey Him---at least it shouldn't be, according to the Bible---but also rightful fear. The fear comes from knowing that if we choose to despise Him, God has the power to chasten (discipline) us, and even to take away our eternal life, if we stubbornly persist in willful sin after coming to be in Christ, by refusing to do what we know He wants us to do and what He commands us. (See Hebrews 10:26-31)

For Christians, the fear of God should be a holy fear---not a guilty terror, as the unsaved have. We know that God loves us, and that we are saved because of His love and His mercy---forgiven of our sins and assured of eternity with Him when we die, through our faith in Jesus Christ---for which reason we have joy, confidence, and peace. But we should also bear in mind that this promise is not unconditionally guaranteed to us, and that if we choose to despise the Lord and refuse to repent, He is able to take away what He gave us. (See John 15:5,6,9-11; Romans 11:19-22)

That knowledge is wisdom, and it helps to keep us from doing evil things that we would otherwise consider or take lightly---even preserving our physical lives at the cost of disobeying the Lord.

The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, that one may turn away from the snares of death. (Proverbs 14:27 ESV)

(Of course, if you have been following my threads, you can see the relevance of this exhortation and reminder: If you don't fear God so as to obey Him in the easy times, much less will you be faithful to Him in the worst of times, when your physical life is on the line. Don't fool yourself!)

This is what Jesus said, speaking to His own disciples:

"I tell you, My friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear Him who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!" (Luke 12:4,5 ESV)

The fear of the Lord produces good things: It leads us to turn away from evil, helps us to deny the strongest temptations of sin, and produces a rightful reverence for God in us that we won't have without it.

"A son honors his father, and a servant his master. If then I am a Father, where is My honor? And if I am a Master, where is My fear? says the LORD of hosts to you, O priests, who despise My name?" (Malachi 1:6 ESV)

(Where indeed, O people of God?)

The faith of those Old Testament saints that we so admire was coupled with the fear of the Lord, and it was their strength to withstand temptation and their motivation to obey God, for which He blessed and rewarded them.

The God of the Old Testament and the God of the New are the very same God. He has not changed His attributes or His attitudes. If we believe that He has, we deceive ourselves. God still wants His people to fear Him, just as He wants us to love Him. The love of God is to keep His commandments, and the fear of Him helps us to obey Him, which we would be more lax about if we did not---potentially to our own spiritual peril.

Yes, God is love, and part of that love is to protect His sheep. This is why He wants and commands us to fear Him; because He knows that mere gratitude to Him and the desire to do what pleases Him because we love Him is not enough to turn us away from strong temptation. We need to fear Him also, just as we would fear a parent who we know loves us, but also has the ability to punish us for doing what we know we know we ought not to.

God says that He is love because that is the attribute by which He desires to be known by man, not because He doesn't have other attributes in equal measure: It is not a matter of what He is, but of what He chooses to show.

God has the potential for as much wrath as He has for love (the evidence being that the unsaved will suffer His wrath for all eternity just as the saved will enjoy His peace and joy for all eternity); but He desires to show more mercy and love to man than He does justified wrath.

Like a jewel with equal facets, the one that faces the light is the one that shines; but that doesn't mean that the jewel has only one facet. The man-ward facet of God is love; but it's quite obvious from the Scriptures that that is not His only attribute, and that God's mercy and patience toward man are not infinite. There will be an end to His patience with impenitent men, and there will also be wrath for those who choose not to continue in His kindness after receiving His mercy.

David was a man who loved God with all of his heart, soul, mind and strength, a man who delighted in the Lord, and who was a man after God's own heart---not because he was perfect, but because he was sincere. And David, who knew God very well, feared God, and wrote much about the fear of the Lord and its benefits.

The Christian who loves God, as David loved God---who is keeping His commandments to the best of his or her ability and who is doing what he or she knows to be His will and pleasing to Him to the best of his or her ability, and desires to do the same, will not have guilty fear, for perfect love casts out the fear of rightful punishment for willful sin. A Christian with a good conscience toward God for the aforementioned reasons will not have this kind of fear; but we should all walk in the fear of our awesome God, who has the power both to chasten us and to condemn us. As long as we have our sinful nature, the fear of God is both essential and relevant.

"I tell you, My friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear Him who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!"
(Luke 12:4,5 ESV)

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego answered and said to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. If this be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. But if not, be it know to you, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up." (Daniel 3:16-18 ESV)

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of His anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
(Revelation 14:9-12 ESV)

No, God does not want followers who cringe in terror at the thought of God and upsetting him. That's the antithesis of a loving God who's love for humanity and by his grace did he gift the world with eternal irrevocable salvation. A fearsome God that wants terrorized followers doesn't act out of true love.
The actual Hebrew is Yirat Adonai = Fear of the Lord, but it is not the terror and quaking fear that is often taught by those without concern for the original language in the Torah.
This is a great beneficial teaching link that is a very short read to help you understand what reverence for the Lord is. Not fear as we know fear in our language today. http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Meditations/Yirat_Adonai/yirat_adonai.html

 

[Papa Zoom]

No, God does not want followers who cringe in terror at the thought of God and upsetting him. That's the antithesis of a loving God who's love for humanity and by his grace did he gift the world with eternal irrevocable salvation. A fearsome God that wants terrorized followers doesn't act out of true love.
The actual Hebrew is Yirat Adonai = Fear of the Lord, but it is not the terror and quaking fear that is often taught by those without concern for the original language in the Torah.
This is a great beneficial teaching link that is a very short read to help you understand what reverence for the Lord is. Not fear as we know fear in our language today. http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Meditations/Yirat_Adonai/yirat_adonai.html

Totally YES! I hope peeps take the time to view. Short and sweet but right on!

 

[dirtfarmer]

No, God does not want followers who cringe in terror at the thought of God and upsetting him. That's the antithesis of a loving God who's love for humanity and by his grace did he gift the world with eternal irrevocable salvation. A fearsome God that wants terrorized followers doesn't act out of true love.
The actual Hebrew is Yirat Adonai = Fear of the Lord, but it is not the terror and quaking fear that is often taught by those without concern for the original language in the Torah.
This is a great beneficial teaching link that is a very short read to help you understand what reverence for the Lord is. Not fear as we know fear in our language today. http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Meditations/Yirat_Adonai/yirat_adonai.html

hello Honey, dirtfarmer here

Virtual like since there is n like button.

 

[Chopper]

I have never known a person or Protestant Church that reacts the way you have described as being terrorized by by God. This is your sad quote in answer to my friend TLSITD's wonderfully truthful Biblical thread on the fear of God.

No, God does not want followers who cringe in terror at the thought of God and upsetting him.

There was nothing in TLSITD's thread that even hinted at what you have almost accused him of. I stand in defense of my friend TLSITD's statements. If you want to yell at someone, yell at me, I can take it and come back with Truth and not error.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I have never known a person or Protestant Church that reacts the way you have described as being terrorized by by God. This is your sad quote in answer to my friend TLSITD's wonderfully truthful Biblical thread on the fear of God.



There was nothing in TLSITD's thread that even hinted at what you have almost accused him of. I stand in defense of my friend TLSITD's statements. If you want to yell at someone, yell at me, I can take it and come back with Truth and not error.

The problem seems to be in defining our terms. I'm not afraid of God anymore than I was afraid of my own Father. But I recognized the difference in our relationship. He's my Father, I'm a son. I approach God in a reverent awe. That, it seems to me, is the fear of the Lord.

We're I not a child of God, a believer in Jesus, I'd have cause to be afraid.

Still, I recognize than one ought to have a healthy view of the Power and Majesty of God. He is Holy Other!

 

[TLSITD]

The problem seems to be in defining our terms. I'm not afraid of God anymore than I was afraid of my own Father. But I recognized the difference in our relationship. He's my Father, I'm a son. I approach God in a reverent awe. That, it seems to me, is the fear of the Lord.

We're I not a child of God, a believer in Jesus, I'd have cause to be afraid.

Still, I recognize than one ought to have a healthy view of the Power and Majesty of God. He is Holy Other!

So, you are not afraid to disobey God? Why not?
(And do not say, "I obey God because I love Him"; just answer the questions.)

I don't live in terror of God. I love Him, and I know that He loves me; but I am also wisely mindful that there are consequences for rebelling against Him, should I ever be tempted to do so, as I explained in my original post. I strive to keep my conscience clear toward Him, and so far as it is, I have no reason to be afraid that I will be disciplined by Him for deliberately disobeying Him, or that He is displeased with me for some reason. Perfect love casts out fear.

Rebellion is a very serious sin in God's eyes---knowing what He commands and desires of you and refusing to do it.

The fear of rebelling against God has been lost in the Church: Christians do what they please, regardless of what the New Testament teaches, as if God doesn't mind, even though they know how He felt about the people of Israel doing this with their Law, and how He responded to it. Christians keep some commandments and teachings, twist or disregard others to suit themselves, and teach others to do the same. They would not do this if they feared God, and there are plenty of scriptures in both the New and the Old Testament to show why they should. They are, unfortunately, foolish.

I didn't fear God when I first got saved. But when I rebelled against Him and He disciplined me severely for it, I came to. And it was the best thing He ever did for me, after saving me and delivering me from an eating disorder. It's made me a much better Christian, and my love for Him is even stronger, knowing how precious He is to me, and how much He loves me, because of how He dealt with me---even though it was torment at the time---a love and a fear that I would not have toward Him if He had not. Thanks to that incident, I came to understand how seriously God views the sin of rebellion, and to take the scriptures about rebellion, and the righteous fear of God that He wants His saints to have, seriously.

I revere God, absolutely; but reverence for God and rightful fear of choosing to disobey Him because of the consequences for doing so are not the same thing. In my opinion and observation, the Church has little to none of either one---words and appearances on the Lord's Day mornings notwithstanding; and I contend that without the fear of rebelling against God and mindfulness of the power of His wrath, which is part of what makes Him awesome, there can be no perfect reverence for Him either.

Who considers the power of Your anger, and Your wrath according to the fear of You? (Psalm 90:11 ESV)

"Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am He who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve." (Revelation 2:22,23 ESV)

"Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it...
...Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." Immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last...
And great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard of these things. (Acts 5:4,5,9-11 ESV)

 

[Papa Zoom]

So, you are not afraid to disobey God? Why not?
(And do not say, "I obey God because I love Him"; just answer the questions.)

Well, I do (try) to obey God because I do love him. But it's more than that. It's the Spirit of God in me that helps me obey. Would I be afraid to disobey God? I'm not indifferent to sin. It's a serious thing. Deuteronomy 28 1-14 covers what God will do for Israel if they obey. Good stuff. 14 verses on obeying. But verses 15-68 cover the consequences of disobeying! It's a sobering chapter on God's view of sin!

'There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. ' 1 John 4:18

I honestly can't say I obey out of fear. Not the being afraid kind. But I can say I obey, by the power of HIS Spirit at work in me, and by an awe and reverence toward His holiness and majesty. On my own I cannot do this. By His power I can.

I don't live in terror of God. I love Him, and I know that He loves me; but I am also wisely mindful that there are consequences for rebelling against Him, should I ever be tempted to do so, as I explained in my original post. I strive to keep my conscience clear toward Him, and so far as it is, I have no reason to be afraid that I will be disciplined by Him for deliberately disobeying Him, or that He is displeased with me for some reason. Perfect love casts out fear.

we agree

Rebellion is a very serious sin in God's eyes---knowing what He commands and desires of you and refusing to do it.

yes!

The fear of rebelling against God has been lost in the Church: Christians do what they please, regardless of what the New Testament teaches, as if God doesn't mind, even though they know how He felt about the people of Israel doing this with their Law, and how He responded to it. Christians keep some commandments and teachings, twist or disregard others to suit themselves, and teach others to do the same. They would not do this if they feared God, and there are plenty of scriptures in both the New and the Old Testament to show why they should. They are, unfortunately, foolish.

This is probably true but, it's not fear that brings us to God. It's love. God is Love. If we are disobedient, then yes, we ought to fear Him for He has great power and will not allow disobedience to rule (Deuteronomy 28 shows us that). But God so LOVED the world. The NT is all about the Love of God for the world (the whole of the Bible for that matter).

I'm not frightened into the loving arms of Jesus, I'm loved into them. I recognized my sin, confessed, and yes, there was an element of fear at that time. But the fear was quenched by the overpowering love of God. I don't rest in fear, but in love and faith.

I didn't fear God when I first got saved. But when I rebelled against Him and He disciplined me severely for it, I came to. And it was the best thing He ever did for me, after saving me and delivering me from an eating disorder. It's made me a much better Christian, and my love for Him is even stronger, knowing how precious He is to me, and how much He loves me, because of how He dealt with me---even though it was torment at the time---a love and a fear that I would not have toward Him if He had not. Thanks to that incident, I came to understand how seriously God views the sin of rebellion, and to take the scriptures about rebellion, and the righteous fear of God that He wants His saints to have, seriously.

But I agree that sin is a serious thing and we ought to agree with God on this. But we who are in Christ need not "fear" because we will sin. We need to take it to the Lord. I know there are some that live as if sin doesn't matter. It matters to God and for that reason Christ died for us!

I revere God, absolutely; but reverence for God and rightful fear of choosing to disobey Him because of the consequences for doing so are not the same thing. In my opinion and observation, the Church has little to none of either one---words and appearances on the Lord's Day mornings notwithstanding; and I contend that without the fear of rebelling against God and mindfulness of the power of His wrath, which is part of what makes Him awesome, there can be no perfect reverence for Him either.

A proper reverence toward God is having the fear of the Lord. Knowing who He is in His majestic power and glory and holiness. We come humbly to Him but we also come boldly to the throne of grace. God is the Prodigal Father longing for his son to come home. He's not plotting his son's destruction, but longing for His son to see the error of his ways. And when that son returns, the Father throws a party and rejoices (that's love!). This is a picture of God.

Now to those who choose rebellion, there is much to fear. Much to dread. No doubt about that.

Who considers the power of Your anger, and Your wrath according to the fear of You?

(Psalm 90:11 ESV)

"Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am He who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve." (Revelation 2:22,23 ESV)

Perfect love casts out fear. There is no fear in love. I'm not afraid of God. But I have a healthy reverent awe for who HE is (the fear of the Lord = recognizing who God is in all His majesty! and seeing our puniness in light of all that He is!) I don't obey God out of fear. I just don't. I can't say that my motivation is one of fear. It's one of love. Love is the way it's supposed to be. Fear is not God's way. Love is. The NT is full of examples that show this.

The disobedient have reason to fear God. The saved do not. Because God's Spirit resides in us, filling us with His power to love Him and to obey Him. And the more we focus on God, the more we exultant Jesus, the more we're operating in the power of the Spirit of Christ. And it's in that Spirit that Love rules!

"Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it...
...Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." Immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last...
And great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard of these things. (Acts 5:4,5,9-11 ESV)[/QUOTE]

Yes, these verses address the disobedient.

 

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

Why would God want Christians to fear and tremble at the thought of Him? God is a God of love, he proved that in giving His Son as a sacrifice for sin. As believers we have the ability to break the command of God to walk in holiness, but not the right to do so. It is my understanding that as Christ was on the cross the sin debt of the whole world was paid. In order to have your sin debt imputed it takes a belief that Christ died in your place.

According to scripture, there is now no condemnation to those that are in Christ. We do receive chastisement from God, but not as punishment for sin, that was place on Christ at the cross. The chastisement that we receive as believers is to remove the dross of the world from us that we may shine as precious stones when God's jewels are assembled in heaven. Hebrews 12:8 states that if we are without chastisement then we have no part in salvation, but are still lost.

Romans 8:28 doesn't state that all things are good, but that even the bad things that happen to us God will make to work for our good and His glory.

If we understand God's will for us is always for our good, then what reason do we have to fear and tremble in His presence?

 

[TLSITD]

Well, I do (try) to obey God because I do love him. But it's more than that. It's the Spirit of God in me that helps me obey. Would I be afraid to disobey God? I'm not indifferent to sin. It's a serious thing. Deuteronomy 28 1-14 covers what God will do for Israel if they obey. Good stuff. 14 verses on obeying. But verses 15-68 cover the consequences of disobeying! It's a sobering chapter on God's view of sin!

'There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. ' 1 John 4:18

I honestly can't say I obey out of fear. Not the being afraid kind. But I can say I obey, by the power of HIS Spirit at work in me, and by an awe and reverence toward His holiness and majesty. On my own I cannot do this. By His power I can.


we agree



yes!



This is probably true but, it's not fear that brings us to God. It's love. God is Love. If we are disobedient, then yes, we ought to fear Him for He has great power and will not allow disobedience to rule (Deuteronomy 28 shows us that). But God so LOVED the world. The NT is all about the Love of God for the world (the whole of the Bible for that matter).

I'm not frightened into the loving arms of Jesus, I'm loved into them. I recognized my sin, confessed, and yes, there was an element of fear at that time. But the fear was quenched by the overpowering love of God. I don't rest in fear, but in love and faith.



But I agree that sin is a serious thing and we ought to agree with God on this. But we who are in Christ need not "fear" because we will sin. We need to take it to the Lord. I know there are some that live as if sin doesn't matter. It matters to God and for that reason Christ died for us!



A proper reverence toward God is having the fear of the Lord. Knowing who He is in His majestic power and glory and holiness. We come humbly to Him but we also come boldly to the throne of grace. God is the Prodigal Father longing for his son to come home. He's not plotting his son's destruction, but longing for His son to see the error of his ways. And when that son returns, the Father throws a party and rejoices (that's love!). This is a picture of God.

Now to those who choose rebellion, there is much to fear. Much to dread. No doubt about that.



Perfect love casts out fear. There is no fear in love. I'm not afraid of God. But I have a healthy reverent awe for who HE is (the fear of the Lord = recognizing who God is in all His majesty! and seeing our puniness in light of all that He is!) I don't obey God out of fear. I just don't. I can't say that my motivation is one of fear. It's one of love. Love is the way it's supposed to be. Fear is not God's way. Love is. The NT is full of examples that show this.

The disobedient have reason to fear God. The saved do not. Because God's Spirit resides in us, filling us with His power to love Him and to obey Him. And the more we focus on God, the more we exultant Jesus, the more we're operating in the power of the Spirit of Christ. And it's in that Spirit that Love rules!

"Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it...
...Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out." Immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last...
And great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard of these things. (Acts 5:4,5,9-11 ESV)

Yes, these verses address the disobedient.[/QUOTE]




It is not just those who have never known God who should fear punishment for being in rebellion against Him, but also those who are saved but who are choosing to rebel against Him, and are choosing not to repent of that rebellion.

Christians can rebel, and they do, and many of them are; and there are serious consequences for doing so. A Christian can choose not to obey God when they know what He wants and commands them to do, and they do not always repent of this, even when He disciplines them. That doesn't mean they're not born-again, it means they're disobedient Christians and need to repent of what they're doing.

Just because we have the Holy Spirit living in us doesn't mean we don't have free will. We still have to make the choice to obey God or not. And if we willfully choose not to do something we know He has commanded us, and choose to rebel against Him and to do what we would rather do instead, there are consequences to be feared.

It's important to know which scriptures refer to unsaved people who are disobedient and those which refer to disobedient Christians. They are not the same thing.

It is also important to know which scriptures are speaking about people who profess to be Christians but are not truly born-again and so continue to sin, or who depart from the teachings of the faith because they were never saved in the first place, and which scriptures are speaking about true Christians who later fall away from Christ. They are not the same thing.

Neither is all sin rebellion.

However much God loves a Christian, it is whether or not we love Him that determines whether we will remain in Him or not. And the love of God is to obey Him. There is no other "love" for Him that He recognizes.

Christians who rely on God's love for them to protect them from the consequences of their choosing not to love Him are trusting foolishly. Most of the people who are in hell right now, whether they ever knew God or not, are not there because God did not love them, but because they did not love Him.

 

[TLSITD]

dirtfarmer here

Why would God want Christians to fear and tremble at the thought of Him? God is a God of love, he proved that in giving His Son as a sacrifice for sin. As believers we have the ability to break the command of God to walk in holiness, but not the right to do so. It is my understanding that as Christ was on the cross the sin debt of the whole world was paid. In order to have your sin debt imputed it takes a belief that Christ died in your place.

According to scripture, there is now no condemnation to those that are in Christ. We do receive chastisement from God, but not as punishment for sin, that was place on Christ at the cross. The chastisement that we receive as believers is to remove the dross of the world from us that we may shine as precious stones when God's jewels are assembled in heaven. Hebrews 12:8 states that if we are without chastisement then we have no part in salvation, but are still lost.

Romans 8:28 doesn't state that all things are good, but that even the bad things that happen to us God will make to work for our good and His glory.

If we understand God's will for us is always for our good, then what reason do we have to fear and tremble in His presence?

Explained in the original post.

 

[Papa Zoom]

dirtfarmer here

Why would God want Christians to fear and tremble at the thought of Him? God is a God of love, he proved that in giving His Son as a sacrifice for sin. As believers we have the ability to break the command of God to walk in holiness, but not the right to do so. It is my understanding that as Christ was on the cross the sin debt of the whole world was paid. In order to have your sin debt imputed it takes a belief that Christ died in your place.

According to scripture, there is now no condemnation to those that are in Christ. We do receive chastisement from God, but not as punishment for sin, that was place on Christ at the cross. The chastisement that we receive as believers is to remove the dross of the world from us that we may shine as precious stones when God's jewels are assembled in heaven. Hebrews 12:8 states that if we are without chastisement then we have no part in salvation, but are still lost.

Romans 8:28 doesn't state that all things are good, but that even the bad things that happen to us God will make to work for our good and His glory.

If we understand God's will for us is always for our good, then what reason do we have to fear and tremble in His presence?

I'm in agreement with you here. I grew up in a church that taught to fear God's punishment for sin (Hell) and to come to Him to avoid that punishment. Salvation relied heavily on a legalistic approach to faith.

No more. That is not God's way. His way is Love.

To say He is a God of Love and Grace is not to say He isn't also a God of Justice. Jesus paid for my crimes against God. Justice has been served through HIM. So I will face the Justice of God and be found clean. Clean and holy in Christ. Nothing to fear.

Those apart from Christ have plenty to fear. To reject Christ is to reject the Love of God.

Now if I were to come into the actual presence of God like Moses or if Jesus was physically coming to my house today, would I be casual about it? By no means! No. I would have that healthy fear but I wouldn't tremble. I'd be in awe and wonder. But Jesus, as he is wont to do, would put all my fears away in His gentle kind way.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Piper has a good message on this worth examining: https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/i-act-the-miracle

 

[dirtfarmer]

hello TLSITD, dirtfarmer here

Do you believe that a Christian has died to self and the spirit of the believer has been separated from the control of their soul(self) and has been made subject to the Spirit of God.
Romans 8:16, " The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God."
Titus 2:14, " Who gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, " And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit, and soul, and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that called you, who also will do it."

Who has the power of resurrection? do we or is it Jesus Christ? If is Jesus Christ and not us, then why would he resurrect the "old man" that was crucified and been made alive with him?

 

[dirtfarmer]

I'm in agreement with you here. I grew up in a church that taught to fear God's punishment for sin (Hell) and to come to Him to avoid that punishment. Salvation relied heavily on a legalistic approach to faith.

No more. That is not God's way. His way is Love.

To say He is a God of Love and Grace is not to say He isn't also a God of Justice. Jesus paid for my crimes against God. Justice has been served through HIM. So I will face the Justice of God and be found clean. Clean and holy in Christ. Nothing to fear.

Those apart from Christ have plenty to fear. To reject Christ is to reject the Love of God.

Now if I were to come into the actual presence of God like Moses or if Jesus was physically coming to my house today, would I be casual about it? By no means! No. I would have that healthy fear but I wouldn't tremble. I'd be in awe and wonder. But Jesus, as he is wont to do, would put all my fears away in His gentle kind way.

hello Papa Zoom, dirtfarmer here

I am giving you 4 virtual likes for this post. I agree 110%

 

[WIP]

dirtfarmer here

Why would God want Christians to fear and tremble at the thought of Him? God is a God of love, he proved that in giving His Son as a sacrifice for sin. As believers we have the ability to break the command of God to walk in holiness, but not the right to do so. It is my understanding that as Christ was on the cross the sin debt of the whole world was paid. In order to have your sin debt imputed it takes a belief that Christ died in your place.

According to scripture, there is now no condemnation to those that are in Christ. We do receive chastisement from God, but not as punishment for sin, that was place on Christ at the cross. The chastisement that we receive as believers is to remove the dross of the world from us that we may shine as precious stones when God's jewels are assembled in heaven. Hebrews 12:8 states that if we are without chastisement then we have no part in salvation, but are still lost.

Romans 8:28 doesn't state that all things are good, but that even the bad things that happen to us God will make to work for our good and His glory.

If we understand God's will for us is always for our good, then what reason do we have to fear and tremble in His presence?

Sin. I think of Isaiah's response recorded in Isaiah 6:5 and 64:6. While God is a God of love, He is also a perfect and just God and we are so far from righteous that it is as filthy rags in comparison. I can't imagine anything other than if I was to come face-to-face with the glory of God that I would be compelled to fall on my knees before Him when I realize how unworthy I truly am.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Sin. I think of Isaiah's response recorded in Isaiah 6:5 and 64:6. While God is a God of love, He is also a perfect and just God and we are so far from righteous that it is as filthy rags in comparison. I can't imagine anything other than if I was to come face-to-face with the glory of God that I would be compelled to fall on my knees before Him when I realize how unworthy I truly am.

hello WIP, dirtfarmer here

You are correct in your statement," we are so far from righteous" but we are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.

As I understand justification it is the act of God declaring the believer as if they had never sinned. Therefore we are not looked upon by God as filthy rags but covered by Christ's blood. We are told that the life is in the blood, if this is true and I believe that it is, then when God looks at the believer he doesn't see sin at all but the blood covering sacrifice of Christ, in other words, he sees the life of our sinless, fulfilling all the law savior that has died in our stead.

It is my belief that as heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ that we are considered saints of God and no longer sinners. In this I am not saying that we aren't overtaken by faults while alive in this earthly body, but those faults are covered by the blood sacrifice of Christ.