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Does the human soul consciously exist following death

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SputnikBoy

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There IS an end in sight to this discussion, Lewis. The bottom line is that eternal life is not given to the lost. The lost are just that ...they LOSE the eternal life that is given to the saved. THAT - the loss of salvation - is their 'punishment'. How do I know? Well, the Bible tells me so.

What more is there to add?
 
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Carey - thanks for your posts. I've enjoyed their presentation and content.

Gabby - the grace of God is this. That He has chosen to give eternal life to those whose names are written in the book of life.
The justice of God is this. That he does not eternally torment those whose names are not in the book. They are after all dead - and this is not a state that they have chosen. They inherited it from Adam. And there is only one way that man can pass from death to life. And this is by God's grace.
 
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SputnikBoy said:
Gabby, the 'crime' we're talking about here is the 'crime' for not having accepted Jesus.
There is no greater crime.
Look at who He is. Look at what He has done. Look at why He did it.

It makes no matter if we are talking about Judas Iscariot, or the Roman soldier with the hammer in his hand, who spit in the face of Jesus Christ, or your sweet little heathen grandma, who simply says "No thank you. I don't need Jesus."

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

If you are simply in or out then why bother judging according to their works?
Why not simply see that their name is not in the book of life and rubber stamp them as "OUT"?

What I am advocating is that God is a just God. I trust His judgments.

SputnikBoy said:

The 'payback' crimes to which you are referring are not the issue here.
Umm.. it was you that brought it up. It is you that chooses to believe that God is not able to deal with my attitude towards criminals. It is you that lumps Judas with granny. God is a good God. He is also a God of wrath and vengeance. I trust His judgments.

When one has more compassion for the enemies of the cross than for the one that was nailed to it....well.....it speaks for itself.
 
S

SputnikBoy

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Gabbylittleangel said:
Umm.. it was you that brought it up. It is you that chooses to believe that God is not able to deal with my attitude towards criminals. It is you that lumps Judas with granny. God is a good God. He is also a God of wrath and vengeance. I trust His judgments.

When one has more compassion for the enemies of the cross than for the one that was nailed to it....well.....it speaks for itself.
Okay, Gabby. If it's eternal torment you want for those who don't accept Jesus then that's how the scriptures will read to you. But, besides the fact that such a heinous form of punishment would not come from a good God, the lost don't receive eternal life anyway so how can they possibly be tormented for eternity?
 
J

Jay T

Guest
mutzrein said:
Hey Oscar

If a person does not receive eternal life, what does John 3:16 say happens to them?
As it is written:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
THEN....the reverse is also true.....he that [does not] believe in HIM, DOES NOT have life (eternal).


BUT, the KEY words here is believeing in EVERY WORD Christ said......

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

SDA's (7th day Baptists, ect.) have an advantage.....in that when a subject is brought under discusion, they use a Concordance to look up EVERY verse on the topic, then they go with what the majority of Bible texts say on that subject.

I personally use the Strong's Exhautive Concordance, for the KJV Bible, where I can look up EVERY Bible verse on any given subject.
THEN.....I can find the answers, to most any question that comes up.
 
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sputnikboy said:
...how can they possibly be tormented for eternity?
Satan knows, ask his followers who refuse to submit to things holy, but insist on "doing it their own way", that way which is "outside" of the way Jesus teaches. 8-)

Does Satan follow the teachings of Jesus? Is Satan going to be redeemed and saved? Satan will never be that, because of his stubborn self will which is "outside" of that which is "holy" .


If you believe Satan and his followers are going to be redeemed show me where in the bible it says so. And if you don't think Satan is tortured by all the things he does which only lead to his downfall, then you are mistaken. Satan is not redeemable because of his fall from heaven, because of his "stubborn" self willed egotistical "pride", "greed", etc. It is an everlasting torment that he finds himself at the end of all his attempts to "do it his own way", that way, that is "outside" of the teachings of Christ Jesus.


.
 
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mutzrein said:
They are after all dead - and this is not a state that they have chosen. They inherited it from Adam. And there is only one way that man can pass from death to life. And this is by God's grace.
These people, who are not now, never have been, and never will be born again, and are after all dead...would they also be dead now?

(Yes, that is sarcasm dripping off of that statement.)

Mutz,
I can not imagine standing before the Almighty and telling him that the sweet little old lady down the street ( Or the nasty folks that I face every day) won't be entering into the Kingdom simply because I believed that they would not go to hell, but simply vanish into nothing.
More than likely, I would have no concern at all for reaching the folks that I deal with, (many of them half brothers, uncles and cousins) if I simply thought that they would cease to exist. As ugly, nasty and vulgar as they are, I know that Jesus wants them saved. And I know that the punishment that awaits them is awful.

It is, in fact, their beliefs that cause them to continue in their stupidity. If they had a clue that there were degrees to punishment, they might reconsider their ways. This is one of the reasons that preaching that there is no hell, or that it is not eternal, is so dangerous. They indeed have a philosophy of 'eat, drink, and be merry'.


Luke 12:19-20 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, [and] be merry. But God said unto him, [Thou] fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

If I believed there was not an eternal hell, I would read this and think "So what!?!" In fact, there are a lot of dangerous philosophies that can be born out of a false doctrine such as this.

In spite of Sputs belief that I am eager to see these people tortured, (proving the lack a prophetic gift ) what I am eager to see ~ is an end to the wickedness. (They are not as anonymous to me as they are to him)

My hope is that they will get saved, because I know the punishment that awaits them. Those among them who have repented and come into the kingdom, I accept as brothers and sisters in Christ. Those who have not, and never will, I accept God's judgments as righteous. I can do nothing else.

I trust God equally with His judgments with little old ladies, babies and mobsters. He knows what He is doing. He is able to judge righteously.
 
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This is the bottom line folks, either accept it or reject the logic because all this bickering back and forth is getting everyone nowhere...Happy New Year to all, BTW 8-)

1) Nowhere do we see any clear teaching on eternal torment by Paul ANYWHERE in the didactic epistles. Nowhere do we see clear comparisons by Christ either (like using 'eternal torment' instead of 'death', 'perishing', 'destruction' and 'consuming'. Instead we see that the 'clearest' verses are Revelation 14 and 20 and Mark 9, all of which use highly metaphorical language and the same language used there is used in the OT to denote complete and utter destruction and annihilation

2) Nowhere in the scriptures are the wicked given eternal life in ANY form. Instead we see that immortality is a gift to the righteous and to those who accept Christ. Nowhere does it say that the wicked will receive immortal bodies to be burned or that merely their 'souls' are burned forever.

3) The Bible lays out clear teachings on the utter destruction of the wicked using 'fire and brimstone' (the two most clearest word examples of destruction to the Bible folk), to describe the fate of the wicked comparing them to 'chaff' 'branches' and other consumable material...thinjgs that 'consume' 'consume away into smoke', 'devour', 'burn up'. The language throughout the entire scriptures are absolutely crystal clear.

Just these three points alone demolish eternal torment, never mind the judicial, moral and cosmological arguments that create massive holes in the mindset of eternal torment.

I will leave you with a quote from R.F. Weymouth, director of Mill Hill School and translator of New Testament in Modern Speech as well as a translator of the Greek scriptures (and a NON-SDA, for all those who like to play the cult card when their arguments don't hold water). Hw was one of the premier scholars of his day as well as highly respected for his translations of the Greek.

Look at what he had to say and pray over his words and see the logic...

"My mind fails to conceive a grosser misrepresentation of language than when five or six of the strongest words which the Greek tongue possesses, signifying to destroy or destruction, are explained to mean `maintaining an everlasting but wretched existence.' To translate black as white is nothing to this."
"The use in the N.T. of such words as `death', `destruction', `fire', `perish', to describe Future Retribution, point to the likelihood of fearful anguish, followed by extinction of being, as the doom which awaits those who by persistent rejection of the Saviour prove themselves utterly, and therefore irremediably bad."
Well said. Dr. Weymouth...
 
O

Oscar3

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SputnikBoy said:
Okay, how about a straight answer to a straight question ...all theology aside for a moment . . .?

Am I to understand that, unless one believes that God

1. has prepared a place SOLELY for torturing people, and,

Yes, but undersatnd that God does not send people to be torchered and tormented for ever and ever, people choose to go there.

2. keeps people alive for eternity SOLELY for torturing them,

they themselves are destined to spend eternity in this torture chamber

Is this what some are ACTUALLY saying here? What say Solo, jg, Oscar ...Judy?
God gave each and everyone of us a free will to chooose or to reject Jesus. To choose Jesus means eternal life in the presence of God, to reject the Lord Jesus is to choose to burn in hell for all eternity.
 
O

Oscar3

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SputnikBoy said:
What God 'should' do with those who have been given the freedom to reject Him if they so choose is far too complex an issue for me to deal with, Gabby. I don't know what God 'should' do with them.


God will do what is fair.





That you, however, see eternal torment as being the ONLY option for those who reject God is most disconcerting. I believe that this says more about YOUR heart than it does for your speaking for God. Such a superior Being would not lend Himself to initiate such barbaric measures for those He claims to love ...or for those He claims to hate, for that matter. Hate and revenge are human traits and would not enter into the mindset of an all powerful, wise, and just God. God is oftentimes someone we create from our OWN minds. We want to poke someone with a sharp stick to make them suffer ...so too will our God. We want someone to pay for their wrongs by tormenting them for eternity ...so too will our God. Many Christians are long on misinterpreted scriptural texts and short on actual scriptural savvy. Furthermore, I would like to think that literal 'eternal torment' for any 'living' being - wicked or otherwise - would go against the moral fiber of EVERY HUMAN ON THIS PLANET!
Don't shoot the messenger because you don't like the mesage. If you have an issue with people getting tortured and burning in hell for ever and ever and ever, take it up with God.

The only two options I see in the Bible are - for the millionth time - eternal life or eternal death. There doesn't appear to be any middle ground. How God will accomplish this is something that NO ONE knows and we're all beating a dead horse even discussing the issue.
Yes, Eternal life for those have placed their faith in Jesus Christ and

for those who reject Jesus
The realities of Hell, are such that we need to take it seriously
 
O

Oscar3

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Re: huh???

carey said:
One of Satan’s ploys to make Christianity look foolish is to introduce ridiculous ideas (that is, ideas that can legitimately be ridiculed because they make no sense) into its theology. In regard to this overall subject, here are two such errors that came into Christianity from Hellenistic (Greek) thought:
It sounds like your saying there is mistakes in the bible and that God did not mean what he said.



There is no such thing as actual “death†(defined in just about any dictionary as “the end, or absence, of lifeâ€Â).
Simply put death is the seperation of man from God.
The grave is represented as “the gates of death†(Job 38:17; Ps. 9:13; 107:18). The gloomy silence of the grave is spoken of under the figure of the “shadow of death†(Jer. 2:6).
Death is the effect of sin (Heb. 2:14), and not a “debt of nature.†It is but once (9:27), universal (Gen. 3:19), necessary (Luke 2:28–30). Jesus has by his own death taken away its sting for all his followers (1 Cor. 15:55–57).
There is a spiritual death in trespasses and sins, i.e., the death of the soul under the power of sin (Rom. 8:6; Eph. 2:1, 3; Col. 2:13).
The “second death†(Rev. 2:11) is the everlasting perdition of the wicked (Rev. 21:8), and “second†in respect to natural or temporal death.
THE DEATH OF CHRIST is the procuring cause incidentally of all the blessings men enjoy on earth. But specially it is the procuring cause of the actual salvation of all his people, together with all the means that lead thereto. It does not make their salvation merely possible, but certain (Matt. 18:11; Rom. 5:10; 2 Cor. 5:21; Gal. 1:4; 3:13; Eph. 1:7; 2:16; Rom. 8:32–35).

Easton's Bible dictionary.

When one “dies,†he then lives on in some conscious, incorporeal form called the “soul†or “spirit.â€Â
This is true. While the mortal body dies and returns to dust, the Soul and Spirit will live forever in Heaven of being torched in hell with a fire that is everlasting.
The Sheep and the Goats
31–33 “When he finally arrives, blazing in beauty and all his angels with him, the Son of Man will take his place on his glorious throne. Then all the nations will be arranged before him and he will sort the people out, much as a shepherd sorts out sheep and goats, putting sheep to his right and goats to his left.
34–36 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Enter, you who are blessed by my Father! Take what’s coming to you in this kingdom. It’s been ready for you since the world’s foundation.

41–43 “Then he will turn to the ‘goats,’ the ones on his left, and say, ‘Get out, worthless goats! You’re good for nothing but the fires of hell.

The lie that man is deathless (introduced by the Devil in Genesis 3:4 and later believed by the Greeks) spawned the corresponding notion that there must be an eternal residence for good people and another address for bad people. Thus arose the following falsehoods:
I don't know what the Greeks or Hebrews believed for that matter, but this is what the bible teaches. The righteous will inherit the kingdom of God and the unrighteous to eternal hell. see above verses.

A dead person goes either to “heaven†or “hell†and stays there forever.
“Hell†is a place of everlasting torment in flames.
Yes this is true. This is what the bible teaches and the bible does not lie.
Judgment
11–15 I saw a Great White Throne and the One Enthroned. Nothing could stand before or against the Presence, nothing in Heaven, nothing on earth. And then I saw all the dead, great and small, standing thereâ€â€before the Throne! And books were opened. Then another book was opened: the Book of Life. The dead were judged by what was written in the books, by the way they had lived. Sea released its dead, Death and Hell turned in their dead. Each man and woman was judged by the way he or she had lived. Then Death and Hell were hurled into Lake Fire. This is the second deathâ€â€Lake Fire. Anyone whose name was not found inscribed in the Book of Life was hurled into Lake Fire.

Fire is a preservative (who else believes this?).
It is ironic that most Christians believe that Adolph Hitler will have everlasting life. You might be thinking: “What?! No they don’t.†But think againâ€â€if Hitler is being tormented forever in fire, does he or does he not have everlasting life? It’s a crummy life, but it is everlasting life, right?
Yes carey you are correct here

On the contrary, Romans 6:23 says: “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.†God never says that the wages of sin is eternal torment. No, He says that the penalty for sin is an end to one’s life.
Carey
Do you believe that Jesus is God?
Matt 25 :31-46
"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You? 40 And the King will answer and say to them, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting (αἰώνιος )fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You? 45 Then He will answer them, saying, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me. 46 And these will go away into everlasting (αἰώνιος ) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (αἰώνιος ) life."

This section of scripture uses the exact same greek word (αἰώνιος ) This word means 1 without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be. 2 without beginning. 3 without end, never to cease,

So the next questions that comes up is where does this everlasting punishment take place? Jesus tells us that also…
This next section od scripture describes the Judgment of the Nations, which is to be distinguished from the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Judgment of the Great White Throne.
The Judgment Seat of Christ, a time of review and reward for believers only, tak
Rev. 20:11–15. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
es place after the Rapture (Rom. 14:10; 1 Cor. 3:11–15; 2 Cor. 5:9, 10). The Judgment of the Great White Throne takes place in eternity, after the Millennium. The wicked dead will be judged and consigned to the Lake of Fire


So the next question that comes up is what is eternal punishment…
Lets take a look at what this passage says in the Greek…..
Here is Matt 25:46
και απελευσονται ουτοι εις κολασιν αιωνιον οι δε δικαιοι εις ζωην αιωνιον

The Greek word for Punishment is (κόλασις) This word simply means Torment…
Now what is torment. Well, I would say being cast into the lake of fire is torment.
Certainly torment would not be anything les that what Jesus went through on his way to the cross… None the less it is for ''ALL ETERNITY''


Three other points should be mentioned. First, the kingdom is said to have been prepared for the righteous from the foundation of the world , where hell was prepared for the devil and his angels . God’s desire is that men should be blessed; hell was not originally intended for the human race. But if people willfully refuse life, they choose eternal torment…In closing I feel I need to mention this again…The Lord Jesus spoke of eternal (same word as â€Âeverlastingâ€Â) fire (v. 41), eternal punishment (v. 46), and eternal life (v. 46). The same One who taught eternal life taught eternal punishment (eternal torment). Since the same word for eternal is used to describe each, it is inconsistent to accept one without the other. If the word translated eternal does not mean everlasting, there is no word in the Greek language to convey the meaning. But we know that it does mean everlasting because it is used to describe the eternality of God (1 Tim 1:17)
I boworred this from jg


It is important to realize that no verse in the Bible says that the “soul†or “spirit†lives on by itself. No verse says that “hell†is a place of everlasting torment in fire. These falsehoods originated with God’s archenemy, and infiltrated Christianity via mistranslation and the mixing of Greek culture and beliefs with the truths presented in the Word of God.
Carey
So are you calling God a liar? It should sounds like it. or it could be that you are simply not learned enough in the scriptures and you simply sound all good and stuff.Regardless, your view is wrong.
gen 35:18
18 And so it was, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name Ben-Oni; but his father called him Benjamin. 19 So Rachel died and was buried on the way to Ephrath (that is, Bethlehem). 20 And Jacob set a pillar on her grave, which is the pillar of Rachel’s grave to this day.

Here you see that the soul departing is a separate event from her death.


Luke 12:16
16 Then He spoke a parable to them, saying: “The ground of a certain rich man yielded plentifully. 17 And he thought within himself, saying, ‘What shall I do, since I have no room to store my crops?’ 18 So he said, ‘I will do this: I will pull down my barns and build greater, and there I will store all my crops and my goods. 19 And I will say to my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years; take your ease; eat, drink, and be merry.†’ 20 But God said to him, ‘Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; then whose will those things be which you have provided?’

aGAIN
Here you can see that that Soul is two differant hings. In the first part is is the physical soul, and when Jesus says ‘Fool! This night your soul will be required of you; he is not speaking of his physical body.

So Carey. Nice try, but your wrong.


Thinking logically, does it seem fair to you that God, who the Bible says is love, would forever inflict upon wicked people the excruciating agony of constantly burning? Think about itâ€â€if “forever†were likened to a feast, 50 million years of torment is a small hors d’oeuvre. Wouldn’t most rational thinkers conclude that, even for quintessential bad boys like Hitler or Bin Laden, that is simply not fair? Sure they would. Justice would not be served by such an egregious atrocity, and how sad it is that this erroneous belief has contributed to many people turning away from the God whom they were told would do such a thing.
Carey
Your theology in my opinion is false and weak because you are thinking to my like Joel Osteen who I am pretty sure does not believe in hell. Infact you sound just like him. ''IMO''


The late Sidney Hatch well expressed how twisted is the idea of a just God forever tormenting by fire those who refused to believe in Him: “A civilized society looks with horror upon the abuse and torture of children or adults. Even where capital punishment is practiced, the aim is to implement it as mercifully as possible. Are we to believe then that a holy Godâ€â€our heavenly Fatherâ€â€is less just than the courts of men? Of course not.â€Â
Never heard of him and even google came up with nothing so he is a nobody.



And the late Swedish Lutheran Bishop John Persone wrote: “For me it is inexplainable how a person who holds the orthodox view [of eternal torment] can at any time have a glad moment in this life. He is constantly mingling with people whose final destiny will be to be tormented eternally without end…To me it is even more inexplainable that such an ‘orthodox’ person can expect even a happy moment in eternity, when he knows that contemporaneously with his blessed estate continues the endless torment and agony of innumerable millions of the accursed. Can he, if he loves his neighbors as himself, yes, even if he has just a little bit of human love and is not solely a selfish wretch, have even a single happy moment?†Well said, wouldn’t you agree?
Sorry Google and yahoo search also came up with nothing.

Think for a moment about fire. What does it do to things it touches? What do you do if you come home and discover that your house is on fire? Do you feel any sense of urgency? Or do you say, “Hey, let’s go to a movie, and when we get back, we’ll call the Fire Department. There’s no hurry, because we know that our home will burn forever.†Nothing burns forever, and a simple word study of “fire†in Scripture shows that its primary purpose is to destroy useless things, like chaff, and evil things, like wicked people, evil spirits, and Satan (Malachi 4:1 is a classic example).
This is why God is God and we are not. God can do ''anything'' and since it was Jesus who said and spoke of these etrnal fires and eternal punishment via the flames of hell, it it what it is.
Again, it sounds like you are calling Jesus a liar

This FAQ about “hell†is not the place to exposit the biblical truth that death is the end of life, and that one who dies no longer exists anywhere in any form. That by itself renders fallacious the notion that “hell†is a place where “dead†people are alive and conscious. In His Word, God artfully chose the metaphor of “sleep†to figuratively describe death. Why? Because sleep is a temporary condition of unconsciousness that ends with an awakening. Ditto for death, for one who believes in Jesus Christ.
More false teaching. Break out with the book, chapter and verses please.

Where there is no consciousness, there is no awareness of time passing. Therefore, the Apostle Paul’s next conscious thought will be when he sees the face of the Lord Jesus at his appearing. Until that glorious moment, Paul, like all who have died and “returned to dust,†no longer exists. Nor will he ever exist again unless Jesus Christ actually died, rose from the dead, ascended to heaven, and comes again to raise Christians who have died. 1 Thessalonians 4:18 says that this truth is the only basis for genuine comfort for the bereaved. How important is this subject? It’s a matter of life and death. See Is There Death After Life?
Yes, This is important. Your false teaching is dangerous.

In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word sheol means “the state, or place, of the dead,†and is usually translated as “grave†(see Ps. 6:5, 16:10, 49:15, 89:48, et al). Because there is not literally any such place, it could also be translated as “gravedom.†The Hebrews recognized that man is an integrated being who is either alive or dead (to us, this is obvious). They understood that man does not have a soul, but rather that, as per Genesis 2:7, man is a living “soul†(nephesh), that is, a living person. When he dies, he is then a dead soul (e.g., Lev. 19:28, 21:1; Num. 5:2, 6:6, 11), that is, a dead person.
More false teaching.
That you obviously believe that the Soul in a singular being is a great fault in your theology as u will see.
The body, Soul and Spirit are three different things….. In the same way God is a triune being, Christians are also triune beings……
For starters lets take a look a few verses that show how the writers have used soul and spirit interchangeably through out some of the scriptures.

In John 12:27, Jesus says, “Now is my soul troubled,â€Â
in virtually the same context in the next chapter John says that Jesus was “troubled in spirit†(John 13:21).

In Luke 1:46-46 Mary says “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.†This is a great example of Hebrew parallelism, the poetic device in which the same idea is repeated using different but synonymous words.
Further more, this interchageability of terms also explains why people who have died and gone to heaven or to eternal torment in hell can be called either “spirits†or ‘’Souls’’
Heb. 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

1 Peter 3:19, By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Rev. 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Again I borrowed this from jg

Carey
Alot of opinion on your part with little if any scripture support.
 
S

SputnikBoy

Guest
Okay, Oscar. What, do you think, does eternal torment mean?

We bandy that term around all the time but we use it so vaguely. As long as some of you are so sure that this act of cruelty is literal, what would it entail? What happens to the person receiving eternal torment ...are they prodded constantly with a red-hot iron until made to scream over and over again forever? ...are they ignited and burned to just the point before death, allowed to heal and receive partial skin grafts before the process begins again? ...depending on the extent of the person's 'sin' are they laid out on different levels of racks above the fire like pizzas in an oven ...what?

Do the aforementioned suggestions sound so unbelievably far fetched that no sane person would seriously consider them ...?
 
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Gabbylittleangel said:
These people, who are not now, never have been, and never will be born again, and are after all dead...would they also be dead now?

(Yes, that is sarcasm dripping off of that statement.)
Forgive me but I think I have missed the point of your comment here Gabby. What are you saying / asking?
 
O

Oscar3

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SputnikBoy said:
Okay, Oscar. What, do you think, does eternal torment mean?

We bandy that term around all the time but we use it so vaguely. As long as some of you are so sure that this act of cruelty is literal, what would it entail? What happens to the person receiving eternal torment ...are they prodded constantly with a red-hot iron until made to scream over and over again forever? ...are they ignited and burned to just the point before death, allowed to heal and receive partial skin grafts before the process begins again? ...depending on the extent of the person's 'sin' are they laid out on different levels of racks above the fire like pizzas in an oven ...what?

Do the aforementioned suggestions sound so unbelievably far fetched that no sane person would seriously consider them ...?

OK
Jesus tells us in Math 25:30b
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus tells us again in Matt 25:41b
Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire

Jesus affirms this in
the next few verses Matt 25:46a
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment

Jesus further tells us in Luke 16 that
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Then John tells us in Revelation.
whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


So to say otherwise is to call Jesus a liar.
The text is pretty clear.
 
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oscar3 said:

OK
Jesus tells us in Math 25:30b
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus tells us again in Matt 25:41b
Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire

Jesus affirms this in
the next few verses Matt 25:46a
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment

Jesus further tells us in Luke 16 that
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Then John tells us in Revelation.
whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


So to say otherwise is to call Jesus a liar.
The text is pretty clear.
Yep, Thats what the bible teaches.
 
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SputnikBoy

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oscar3 said:

OK
Jesus tells us in Math 25:30b
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Figurative. The lost perish. They DIE. The dead can't ACTUALLY weep and gnash their teeth. It's figurative.

oscar3 said:
Jesus tells us again in Matt 25:41b
Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire
Again, figurative. The lost receive the wages of sin which is (everlasting) death.

oscar3 said:
Jesus affirms this in
the next few verses Matt 25:46a
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment
That is the everlasting punishMENT of death. Why do you read more into it ...?

oscar3 said:
Jesus further tells us in Luke 16 that
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
I flatly refuse to go into this PARABLE yet again. For those interested, however, check out the number of threads on this site that have dealt with this issue MANY times. The PARABLE of the Rich Man & Lazarus merely expounds on a fable of the day. Those of Jesus' audience would have known what He was talking about. Many of those in the year 2007 still haven't got a CLUE what Jesus was talking about.

oscar3 said:
Then John tells us in Revelation.
whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So to say otherwise is to call Jesus a liar.
The text is pretty clear.
Ho-hum. The old rhetoric about calling Jesus a liar again, eh? You have no understanding of the texts you present, Oscar. It's as simple as that.
 
S

SputnikBoy

Guest
As an addendum to the above. The lost DO NOT attain immortality. Only the saved do. To receive LITERAL (key word) eternal torment one would have to have immortality. The lost DO NOT! Why is this SO difficult for some of you to grasp?
 
O

Oscar3

Guest
Sputnik
By your logic eternal life is figurtive as well.
Do you pick and choose what parts of the bible suit you?
Was the cross figurative as well?
What about raising Lazarus from the dead? What that figurative as well?
What about all the people Jesus healed? Where those figurative as well?
Was the parting of the red sea figuartive?

I will be looking for your answers.
 
S

SputnikBoy

Guest
oscar3 said:
Sputnik
By your logic eternal life is figurtive as well.

While logic DOES play a big part in issues such as this, my take on this topic is also scriptural. I learn from the scriptures that the soul that sins will die. That means that they will not live. Easy, isn't it?

No, eternal life for the saved is not figurative. Neither is eternal death for the lost.


oscar3 said:
Do you pick and choose what parts of the bible suit you?
No, I don't pick and choose, Oscar. I'm smarter than that. What I do, however, is to see what the Bible CONSISTENTLY has to say about an issue. Then, if I later run into scripture/s that seem to contradict the consistent I have to look into them deeper. Invariably they will be illustrative, hyperbolic, metaphoric, symbolic or figurative. Therefore they don't contradict the consistent truths at all. Try it ...!

oscar3 said:
Was the cross figurative as well?
Well, the above question is a good example of a nonsensical red herring. It has nothing to do with the issue and also demonstrates scriptural immaturity. No, Oscar, the cross is not figurative.

oscar3 said:
What about raising Lazarus from the dead? What that figurative as well?
Um, no, Oscar. You really don't have a clue, do you?

Incidentally, where WAS Lazarus during the several day interim that he was dead ...in heaven, in hell, somewhere in between ...? Hmmm . . .


oscar3 said:
What about all the people Jesus healed? Where those figurative as well?
Stick with the issue, Oscar, and try your best to be sensible. Okay?

oscar3 said:
Was the parting of the red sea figuartive?
I don't know. I wasn't there. Probably not. Try to get back on topic, Oscar. The title of the thread is at the top of the page.

oscar3 said:
I will be looking for your answers.
Well, you've got them.
 
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