Double Marriage

[Merry Menagerie]

But that's the thing though - the sexual act in itself isn't a sin. Fornication and adultery is.

But isn't fornication sex before marriage? So if sex=marriage, how can there be such a thing as fornication?

Also, to the woman at the well, Jesus said "you've had five husbands, and the man you're now living with is not your husband". If sex=marriage, that would mean she was living with the guy but not sleeping with him.

Blessings...

mustn't have been sleeping with him then. So it's five husbands huh - I always thought it was seven. Oh well. Point is the same. Just to clarify, that I don't believe that sex in itself is a sin, I believe it's a beautiful gift from God, fornication and adultery is a sin though because fornication and adultery hurts others and is selfish (also, adultery may no actually involve sex but it's hurtful just the same) .

Found some definitions of 'fornication' for you...

"Fornication" ( Greek word, "porneia"=prostitution) is an abusive, selfish sex that is hurtful and unloving towards others, It is sex for the self and the self only. It is sex for hire, services for pay. It is use of the body for means other than love. Real sex is for the other, a giving of love, a sharing of self, a bonding of spirit, a joining of souls. Real sex is free of charge, moving towards a special intimacy where two human beings communicate and connect in no other way that brings closeness to a higher realm. Nowhere does the Greek word, "pornos" define itself to mean government issued marriage certificates. This has been a misinterpretation from the early days of the post New Testament church,

http://freechristians.com/Sex_Page/fornication.htm

Anyway I've only just started looking into this stuff because up until now I've only ever listened to 'pastors' and their interpretation of what the bible says and never really looked at it myself. When I've actually looked there hasn't been a marriage ceremony or marriages ordained by a clergy etc. They've only ever been a covenant between the man, woman and God - I've found celebration of marriages in the bible but just not actual ceremony or instructions on 'how to's' of marriage. I just found it interesting is all.

Personally, for me, I married my husband 10 years ago but I felt that we were married before God before we were married according to the law - that's why I was looking into it.

 

[von]

Merry- I hate to disagree with you because I really like you but Im' pretty use to you now and I think that you are pretty use to me. Sex does not equal marriage. Look, I do believe that you are right about the peice of paper. I don't think that they had that or a ceremony. I do think that they just went in unto one another. But, it was a wedding night. They weren't just sleeping with someone for the fun of it. I do question though, if there was no paper or marriage cetificate, then why did they need a written bill of divorcement. Maybe there was one and the Bible just doesn't mention it. Or maybe it was the vow itself. I'm sure that it was done publically at least with the family because the Bible calls it the "wife of thy covenant" so something was done to validate the marriage to the public.

 

[von]

Lovely- I wanted to say one thing to you about something you commented on. It is about the lives of the children being torn apart. Actually, in these situations the lives of the children do much better than in a regular divorce where two individuals hate one another and ridicule their ex to their children all of the time. In thses situations, the parents still love one another, they work together and the family is just fine. You also teach your children from the very beginning about what is going on so there is no confusion.

 

[von]

By the way, I am interested in the situation between homosexuals. Is this not fornication? If they go to California and become married and get saved can they stay married? No one answered that.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Merry- I hate to disagree with you because I really like you but Im' pretty use to you now and I think that you are pretty use to me. Sex does not equal marriage. Look, I do believe that you are right about the peice of paper. I don't think that they had that or a ceremony. I do think that they just went in unto one another. But, it was a wedding night. They weren't just sleeping with someone for the fun of it. I do question though, if there was no paper or marriage cetificate, then why did they need a written bill of divorcement. Maybe there was one and the Bible just doesn't mention it. Or maybe it was the vow itself. I'm sure that it was done publically at least with the family because the Bible calls it the "wife of thy covenant" so something was done to validate the marriage to the public.

Hey that's ok - you don't have to agree with me. I think the celebration was to make ti public but the covenant would have already been made while they were betrothed even - maybe - don't know. Is there a scripture that speaks of a written bill of divorcement?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

By the way, I am interested in the situation between homosexuals. Is this not fornication? If they go to California and become married and get saved can they stay married? No one answered that.

Actually I would consider that homosexuality. Sodomy - or whatever. Men lying with men unaturally which God calls an abomination. They can get married according to the law I suppose but that does not mean they are married before God.

 

[von]

Deut.24:1 and Mark 10:4 Might be more , I just know of these two right off hand.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

I wonder why there's a bill of divorcement and not one of marriage? Hmmm. Unless....I don't know. I'll have to think about that one for a while.

Thanks for that.

 

[lovely]

I would love to see a response to these questions.

Lovely wrote:

The Scripture also tells us to not be unequally yoked, but He tells us to stay with an unbelieving spouse unless they desire to leave. Why not leave that unbelieving spouse in order to obey the Word that says do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers? Is there a difference in this, and in remarriage? If so, can you please explain to me what you have found in Scripture? Thanks ladies, I am truly interested.

The homosexuality issue, Von, would be that this is not marriage, I think we can all agree on that. So, it would not be right for two women, or two men to continue in such activity.

The woman at the well had 5 "husbands". God recognized them all as marriages. As I said in my first post, to divorce a second husband, in a marriage recognized by God (one flesh), again is to continue in the same sin of divorce. God hates divorce. Commiting sin to correct a sin is not the answer. Remarriage falls into the same category as being unequally yoked. You stay, and allow God to forgive, and restore, and He can.

The practical side to this...many families who are in a remarriage situation, are beautiful families of God. Ministering as home educators discipling Godly children, praciticing hospitality, singing together, worshipping God with their lives, trusting Him to forgive and restore. How is it better to tell them to divorce (which is a sin) and split the children up one way or another, not having the mother full time in the home (keeper at home), and the father exampling leadership and work ethic...etc. A family serving God, is always God's best for rearing up children. The people who care about what Scripture teaches on this matter are not people who are arguing and fussing, they are believing families being restored as Scripture indicates will happen in the last days...raising a generation of children who understand the principals in Scripture concerning marriage, and how to NOT make the same mistakes of the prior generations. I still fail to see how divorcing (more sin) is restorative.

I will try to keep it more brief if I respond again, sorry it is so long. I again would like to say that we really need to rightly divide the Word, and remember the lessons of the spirit of the law versus the letter. Also, God's grace is sufficient.

Can you show me a Scripture that tells us to divorce in a second marriage? Malachi speaks to corrupt priests who were NOT repentant that is why God did not receive their offering...that is why they did the things they did...Divorce, Marriage to unbelievers, and worship of their idols...THAT is why God chose not to receive their offerings.

I am really enjoying this discussion. The Lord bless all of you ladies.

 

[1956Ford]

Scripture does not speak of abortion either but we know that it is sin. I don't think Jesus ever mentioned homosexuality directly but he did speak on remarriage as being adultery
Jesus call remarriage adultery. If Jesus means what he says how do you repent of adultery? You stop doing it. The bible tells us that if we don't repent we will not enter the kingdom of heaven. It also says that adulterers will not enter the kingdom of heaven. How do you repent of what Jesus calls adultery and stay in it?

I repented of an adulterous remarriage.
My testimony is at http://www.poovy.8m.com

Also, for more study,
visit http://www.marriagedivorce.com

Cheryl

 

[lastblast]

Yes, you are right Cheryl. That is the definition of repentance. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy

 

[von]

Why isn't homosexuality not a marriage? If a couple goes to a state that says it is well then it is. By the law. We can't say it isn't just because we don't like that life style. And the same holds true with remarriage we can't say this is okay because we think it is. It is what God's word says. Leaving an adulterous relationship is not a sin. We are not correcting a sin with a sin. I don't understand why a person can't see that the second mariage is not acknowledged by God.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

I don't believe homosexuality is marriage becasue God doesn't recognise it as such. The law is not God! Just because the law sees them as married doesn't mean that God does.

 

[von]

Okay, that is my point. God doesn't see a remarriage as a marriage either. How can you call one different than the other? He doesn't see either one as a marriage in spite of the law of the land.


I want to addres Lovely about the unequally yoked. He is talking about believers. If you were married to a none Christian before salvation, you are then to remain with them. Even if your spouse dies it says you are to marry only in the Lord. Why would a Christian want to marry a nonchristian, what would you have in common? You know, light has no fellowship with darkness.

 

[Klee shay]

I know this will sound gross, but I believe the marriage certificate which was sufficient for the councils and judges ruling at the time to recognise a marriage, is the wedding sheets. Parents often kept the blood stained sheets where their daughters lost their virginity on their wedding night, as proof that they were married.

I can't remember the exact scripture, but I can recall one story where a woman's parents had to prove she was married to a particular man, so they returned home to get their blood stained sheets from her wedding night.

Sounds gross but I have read it in the bible as used as proof.

 

[Klee shay]

Lovely, I must say that I agree wholeheartedly with the perspective you have put forward on remarriage.

The Jews (no comparsion to anyone here just an analogy) accused Jesus of breaking the law according to Moses when he healed on the Sabbath day. Jesus response was in asking them who would not help a neighbour if his ox fell into a ditch on the Sabbath day? He told them that the Sabbath was made for mankind, not mankind for the Sabbath.

It's a very simple phrase which can be applied to all the scriptures. Marriage was made for mankind, not mankind for marriage. So where God sees a union whether started in righteousness or not - does he not have the power himself to make it good?

When we start obeying the law to the letter, we have to obey all the laws. That is why the Lord's grace is sufficient, as you said Lovely, to cover our sins. I believe that true repentence is turning away in love. We turn away from our sin because we love God not because we wish to obey him. The Pharises were obedient to the Law and yet their hearts were not for God, but for their own power and influence over mankind.

I know I'm kind of stretching the issue of remarriage into many different areas of the bible; but I believe the truth of the scriptures is in applying it to how Jesus lived as well.

For example, we look to the letter of God's commandments (thou shalt not commit adultery) and then we look to the life of Jesus - where he taught the gifts from God that he gave mankind (the Sabbath, marriage, etc) were for mankind to enjoy as a gift, not to live in punishment for the sake of the gift.

Do we enjoy the gift of remarriage because Jesus said God gave it as a gift to enjoy? Yes, we do, but we do not then turn our backs on the importance of God's union of marriage a second time. If through blind ignorance to our responsibility in marriage, we fail the first time, we are forearmed with the weight and importance of that responsibility a second time.

Like as you say Lovely, I do believe it differs according to the heart of the person in the situation. Someone could remarry a hundred different times (exaggeration) but if by the 101 marriage they suddenly realised the weight of their responsibility before God in his special gift he has created for mankind in marriage - only then should they never remarry again.

Which is why the woman by the well had 5 husband's before Jesus told her she was wrong and to turn away from that life. I believe if she was to marry a man from that point onwards, she would be aware of the gravity of her situation. Before then she did not know right from wrong, but Jesus showed her and in response, she encouraged the whole villiage to come and listen to this man who knew how to look into the heart and know the truth.

I truly believe in the power of redemption through the blood of Christ. If we believe it can forgive sin, then it can wash it away as if it never happened. Then we are free to do right the second time, for we have truly learned what was wrong the first time.

As parents ourselves, how many times do we show our children they are forgiven and are still loved by us, even though they continue to do wrong? Is it because they know what they are doing wrong, or because they are still learning that we love them so much?

 

[lastblast]

As parents ourselves, how many times do we show our children they are forgiven and are still loved by us, even though they continue to do wrong? Is it because they know what they are doing wrong, or because they are still learning that we love them so much?

But Klee shay,

Don't you think many send a mixed message to children when we don't forgive the one God joined us with, but instead move on, due to their sins? Just a thought. Blessings in Jesus, Cindy

 

[Klee shay]

Don't you think many send a mixed message to children when we don't forgive the one God joined us with, but instead move on, due to their sins? Just a thought.

If at the time you knew what you were doing when you divorced the first time, as a willful act of unforgiveness and a deliberate attempt to turn away from what God has outlined about a committed marriage, then yes, it would send a mixed message to children.

If however, it was a mistake made through ignorance and a lack of God's understanding towards his sacred union, then we teach our children about God's forgiveness, grace and the cleansing through the blood of Christ, by humbling ourselves to our mistakes - facing them, and being allowed to move on without needless punishment.

True repentence (in my humble opinion) is knowing that you have done wrong, facing the music with God and using his grace by the goodness of his heart, to try again at what you intially failed at. Only this time you have the Lord's conviction in your heart to know how to make better judgements and decisions.

We do it with our children every day. We instruct them as patiently as possible - we might lose our cool if they keep repeating the same mistakes, but basically we give them the benefit of the doubt that they are trying their best. They aren't trying to deliberately fail and displease us...they are just in the process of learning. We have to look past their initial stuff-ups to see in the long-term what they have learned and what they will do with the rest of their lives.

It is written that God can turn all things for good for those who believe. How do we show that in our own lives however, when we believe it is what we do which turns things for good?

Like Lovely, I respect those who try to do the will of God as it is written in the scriptures, so my opinions are not a direct judgement of a person's intentions to obey God. I just see the scriptures through Christ's life, as being one of forgiveness without condition on second chances.

If it is written how many times do you forgive your brother - and the Lord replied, seventy-seven times seven; why would we then be exempt from his forgiveness that many times ourselves, per wrong we do him? I tell you the only way we become exempt is when we do not forgive our brothers their tresspasses against us.

If you can forgive your first husband for their part in the marriage breakdown, and you can forgive yourself for not knowing any better at the time as well...then the Lord sees the intentions in your heart are for good. Why then would you not be worthy (once you know his forgiveness and grace) to make the next marriage a testimony to God that you have learned your lesson about his sacred union between man and woman?

Without good examples of marriages around, how do we then teach our children to be good partners in their own sacred union when they grow up? Even second marriages can demonstrate what God had intended for a sacred union. We must humble ourselves before God and our brothers however, confessing our original mistakes and how through the love and forgiveness of the Lord, we were given a second chance to do better.

 

[Klee shay]

I forgot to add that if reconcilition is possible between a husband and wife who have divorced; then a second marriage wouldn't be necessary? My statements above are for people who have divorced and it is not possible for a reconciliation with their first marriage.

Whether we have learned our lesson and go back to our first marriage, or we have learned our lesson and we move on to a second marriage - as long as the Lord goes before your good intentions to do better at what you originally failed at...then he has a purpose for all sacred unions.

I believe it is for God to marry and divorce (or remarry) as it is his creation and his sacred institution. Who are we to judge God's intentions? We can only go by the scriptures and what they say. If we look for the love and faith in God's goodness as opposed to looking for the knowledge of how to acquire it from God; then we will find love and provision from God's abundant store.

The scriptures cannot provide it alone if we only look for what we can do to rectify a mistake. The scriptures also speak of Christ and how his blood can cleanse us of our sins. It is not for the purpose of going out and being ignorant again, but to learn from his holy conviction and do right the second time. If we cannot demonstrate what we have learned, how do our lives have any credibility towards God's grace, mercy, forgiveness and provision for the sinners we want to enlist to his calling?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

True repentence (in my humble opinion) is knowing that you have done wrong, facing the music with God and using his grace by the goodness of his heart, to try again at what you intially failed at. Only this time you have the Lord's conviction in your heart to know how to make better judgements and decisions.

Exactly!!!! The old sins have been written off - clean slate!

God can turn it all around for good!