Doubt on Christian basics

[samfaps]

Hi all,
I just wanted to ask why do we have to be saved?I know that we are fallen men, etc, but the reason we are fallen is because of a mistake adam and eve committed which is none of our fault, why was the sin passed on?
But for that, we would not be born with a sinful nature, hence wont need to be saved.
It seems as if God cut our hands so that we buy his band-aid.
awaiting your responses,
Thank You!

 

[Eventide]

The gospel of God concerning His Son...

Hi all,

I just wanted to ask why do we have to be saved?

Just that ?

It's perhaps the question of questions in many ways.. and the simple basic scriptural answer is that we're separated from God precisely because of sin and disobedience, which has resulted in death to all in Adam.. an extremely serious matter to say the least..

In the beginning there was DECEPTION with respect to the woman and there was DISOBEDIENCE with respect to the man..

There's a significant difference between being deceived and being disobedient.. and we see the greater condemnation from God being toward the man... so to speak.. it was because of ADAM's transgression that DEATH has passed upon all men.. it was not because of the woman being deceived, but rather because of the man being DISOBEDIENT.

The only question remaining so to speak is this...

Is there conviction in your life that you actually do need to be SAVED ?

IMO without the LORD convincing you of these things, you're not going to be concerned (or pricked in the heart) with them..

Some personal questions get to the heart of the matter imo.. and you don't need to answer them.. simply consider them..

Do you believe that you have ever been disobedient to the LORD, just as Adam was ?

How about being deceived..?

I'll certainly admit that I have been deceived about many things throughout my life.. although I've never felt the same CONVICTION when I was deceived as compared to when I was being outright disobedient... if you know what I mean.

IMO the bottom line is that it needs to be personal for YOU.. and you were created in His miraculous image.. you have the God given faculties of being able to experience things.. to consider things... to weigh in the balances so to speak what this miraculous experience is all about.. what we call LIFE..

And every aspect of it has been for ever settled ALREADY.. concerning our sin, HIS righteousness, and the judgment of it all. both now and in the days ahead..

So there's a CROSS road for every last one of us in that first Adam.. we can continue to journey through this life separated from the very source of life, and remain condemned already... or we can agree with God and lay down our life for His infinitely glorious life..

If any man come after Me, let him DENY HIMSELF, take up his cross.. and follow ME..

Infinitely easier said than lived.. and it's the absolute foundation of the gospel of God concerning His Son.. repentance toward God for our sin, and faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ and His righteousness.

There's not a greater or more serious matter in life than the gospel of God, concerning His Son.

I sincerely hope that this simple blog can help in some way, and I'd be thrilled to speak moreso on this absolutely mind boggling question of yours.. and the only compass to guide us is the scripted living and powerful word of God.. which is for ever settled in heaven.

 

[farouk]

It's good to keep getting back to the Scriptures in simplicity and what they teach, centered as they are in the Person and work of the Lord Jesus.

 

[The Unbeliever]

Romans 1:18-3:19 is Christianity's response to your question. Essentially you are culpable because despite the fall you have been given enough to know better but chose wickedness anyway. Try reading that passage, you'll have to have an answer to it if you wish to dispute Christianity's claim.

 

[smaller]

Hi all,
I just wanted to ask why do we have to be saved?I know that we are fallen men, etc, but the reason we are fallen is because of a mistake adam and eve committed which is none of our fault, why was the sin passed on?
But for that, we would not be born with a sinful nature, hence wont need to be saved.
It seems as if God cut our hands so that we buy his band-aid.
awaiting your responses,
Thank You!

God binding men to the spirit of disobedience in order to search and find His Eternal Mercy as an experienced matter makes no fault upon Him for doing so.

Neither is God faulted for the cause of Hope that arises in such matters as Hope is also a Divine Matter of 'experience.'

There are an abundance of dire things in the ground of our present earth. It also means that seeds die therein and flowers spring up from the darkness into His Light. I might think God takes some pleasures in His Garden in these ways.

Isaiah 61:3
To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

God planted Adam in the Garden right along with the other trees. And God knows exactly what His Own Intentions were in that matter.

He is also well able to tend and attend to same.

s

 

[ivdavid]

I know that we are fallen men, etc, but the reason we are fallen is because of a mistake adam and eve committed which is none of our fault, why was the sin passed on?

You've got certain things right there. Our sinful nature has been passed down from Adam - flesh gives birth to flesh[John 3:6]. And Adam's flesh was corrupted with sin - hence any further flesh that was birthed carries forth such corruption(I consider flesh here to refer to the nature that we are born with into the world and not the physical skin et al. covering our bones). The only solution unto redemption is in being birthed from above, in the spirit - Spirit gives birth to spirit[John 3:6].

However, we are not held guilty or accountable for Adam's transgression - each of us are held accountable only for the transgressions we ourselves commit. Of course, these transgressions stem out of the corruption in our flesh, which was in turn passed down from Adam - but the point here is that we are not held guilty or accountable for someone else's transgressions. Only the sinful nature is passed down - not the sins committed of such a sinful nature.

As to your question of why this sinful nature must be passed down to all mankind - you need to put yourself in Adam's position and ask yourself the question if you would have done better. See, Adam is our federal head in terms of representing what each one of us would have done in his position. Instead of having to recreate the paradise scenario for each individual to show us the enslaving of our self/flesh by sin, God achieves the same result through the federal headship of Adam. The fall in the garden of eden was not so much the fall of just one man, Adam - it rather represented the fall of the as yet uncorrupted but inevitably corruptible flesh to the power of sin.

Look at us believers in Christ now - how are we being sanctified, by the flesh or by the Spirit - in the flesh or in the spirit? We are being sanctified by the Spirit in the spirit [Gal 3:3;Rom 8:8-9]. What then was the purpose of creating man in the flesh? Before that, what does 'flesh' refer to?

Romans 8 deals with the differences between the flesh and the Spirit - in the sense of them being causative forces. I'd say the flesh is our self-determining capacity and the Spirit stands for the absolute God-determining capacity. God, through the fall of man in the flesh and his redemption in the spirit, is showing the futility of our self-determining capacity and the necessity for our reliance on God's determining capacity alone which is worked out in us(Php 2:13).

It seems as if God cut our hands so that we buy his band-aid.

Well, superficially that's the way it might seem - but would you say God cut Adam's hands? If not, then He has not dealt with us unjustly either - we must not view our birth into corruption as what God has causatively inflicted upon us, rather as what we ourselves have inflicted upon ourselves as proven in our federal head representative, Adam.

 

[Davies]

Hi semfaps,

Why do we need to be saved? Because you have given us that you understand man is fallen, and that the sin nature of Adam has been passed down to his children, I believe the heart of your question is answered in how God justifies a person. The reason we need to be saved is because we have violated God's laws. Depending on you age, you will likely have proven that you are a sinner a 100,000 times over if you study the Ten Commandments. There is enough guilt in one sin to bury a sinner because death is the wage of sin. God is perfect, and will not allow any sin to go unpunished, and if He did, we could say that He wasn't just. There is a day of judgment coming in which God will judge the world in righteousness. God knew we would sin, and that's why He had a plan to save man even before creation, and His plan is what we see unfolding in history, the truth of which is found in the Bible.

Do you think it was fair that Jesus would die a terrible death on the cross, even though He was innocent? Yet, it pleased the Father to bruise the Son (Isa. 53). Look at Romans 5:19.
Romans 5:19

New King James Version (NKJV)

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.


So, when God says to repent and place our trust in Jesus Christ, God Himself, who died on the cross to pay for our sin, and rose again from the dead, He promises to forgive us our sins and grant us eternal life. Our sins were placed on Jesus; His righteousness was placed on us. If that transaction has taken place in a person's life, they will no longer desire to sin, but they will desire to obey God. This is what is called being born again. If you can't repent and put your trust in Jesus, you know you haven't been born again, and you still need to be saved.


I pray God will send you the help you need to put your faith and trust in Jesus.


- Davies

 

[samfaps]

some seem to have misunderstood me,
I'm basically asking why do we have this in-born tendency to sin (which is causing us all this problem), we did not have the free will to chose weather we want that sinful nature which separates us from god, only Adam and Eve were given such a free will, they were made upright but chose the wrong path, but we are NOT made upright, we apparently need a saviour for none of our fault.
Yes we do sin, but the reason is that we are born with a sinful nature for none of our fault.

 

[Davies]

samfaps,

You have to accept that Adam was your federal head whether you think that is fair or not. He represented you when he failed in the Garden. To say otherwise is to make God a liar.

- Davies

 

[Hammer]

Regardless of why, it's what God chose to do.

Here's one possible answer:
Luke 7:47 For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.

I think it has something to do with the experience so that we can appreciate God more. If you've never been sick, you don't appreciate being well. And, when you recover fully from an illness, you feel better than before you suffered from the illness.

 

[Kaliani]

God binding men to the spirit of disobedience in order to search and find His Eternal Mercy as an experienced matter makes no fault upon Him for doing so.

There are criminals who, for example, commit arson so they can 'heroically' put out their own fires.

These men are considered insane, and I think rightly so.

How does God, in your post, differ from these criminals smaller?

 

[ivdavid]

There are criminals who, for example, commit arson so they can 'heroically' put out their own fires.
These men are considered insane, and I think rightly so.
How does God, in your post, differ from these criminals smaller?

Not interrupting Smaller's own reply, If I may answer this - I'd say that the difference lies in the fact that God doesn't commit any arson here - it's sin that does that, with God truly heroically putting out its fires. I think Smaller has paraphrased Rom 11:32 here, within the entire context of Romans 9-11. Permitting the fall of mankind is not equivalent to directly causing it, wouldn't you say?

 

[Eventide]

To WILL is present with me...

some seem to have misunderstood me,
I'm basically asking why do we have this in-born tendency to sin (which is causing us all this problem), we did not have the free will to chose weather we want that sinful nature which separates us from god, only Adam and Eve were given such a free will, they were made upright but chose the wrong path, but we are NOT made upright, we apparently need a saviour for none of our fault.
Yes we do sin, but the reason is that we are born with a sinful nature for none of our fault.

I think that I understand your thoughts here.. and of course these are deep theological subjects... and to this day it is often debated as to whether or not we actually are born with a sin nature...

imo I think that children (especially infants) are a wondrous example of innocence.. perfectly harmless and miraculous creatures of God... created in the very image of God.. and we're completely dependent upon our parents at this time...

BUT... then we all grow into adulthood with these enormous faculties which God has blessed us with.. and that's when we begin to see problems..

Notice that the Lord Jesus Christ is that TRUE LIGHT which lighteth every MAN that comes into the world.. not every child..

SO here's the PROBLEM STATEMENT

The Apostle Paul in Romans 7 says that TO WILL is present with me... what I think that means is that I have motives.. I have desires.. and they're driven by deception in many ways... ie, our own lusts.. although they're also driven intentionally by God through the LAW.. to HIGHLIGHT the actual PROBLEM that IS going on right now as we speak..

WHY do we WANT things... ?

Because we want to experience these things and test drive them so to speak within the framework of this miracle we know as our body.. our earthen vessel. IMO this falls infinitely short of what I'm trying to convey but hopefully you get a picture.

The Apostle also says that there's another enormous factor in play here... and that is SIN within my members.. within the framework of this earthen vessel.. and that it's not me.. it's sin in me..

Again, imo a deep theological matter which essentially IS the matter..

And the gospel highlights or amplifies this WILL in me and the SIN which is in me.. to the point where I need a Saviour... and this is intentional by God as well.. to CONVINCE us of these enormous matters in life.. and according to the scriptures.. we all HAVE gone ASTRAY.. gone our OWN way...

And remember that according to the scriptures the man was NOT deceived.. imo this means that he was disobedient.. and that's obviously a broad example of an ongoing problem with men being disobedient to GOD.. right here.. right now...

God is calling all men (in Adam) to REPENTANCE for this disobedience and in fact the gospel of God's Son is UNTO OBEDIENCE to all NATIONS..

God is calling men from their individual disobedience (just like Adam) and unto REPENTANCE and OBEDIENCE to the GOSPEL of His Son..

The Father loveth the Son and hath given all things into His hand.. the matter is settled entirely and for us that crossroad is always before us.. and again imo it is infinitely easier said than lived.

 

[wayseer]

Hi all,
I just wanted to ask why do we have to be saved?

Ask the Church - they wrote that bit.

I know that we are fallen men, etc, but the reason we are fallen is because of a mistake adam and eve committed which is none of our fault, why was the sin passed on?

Good point. After years of research and study my conclusions is that Adam and Eve is a story - not fact.

But for that, we would not be born with a sinful nature, hence wont need to be saved.
It seems as if God cut our hands so that we buy his band-aid.

The only band-aid on offer is the one promoted by the Church. Learn to differentiate between Churchainity and Christianity.

 

[Eventide]

H O P E . . .

Perhaps in a much broader sense.. this experience is to simply show us the LOVE of God in our Lord Jesus Christ.. and to glorify His beloved Son in all things.

The Apostle also tells us that we were subjected to these things IN HOPE.. it's another wondrous read.. Romans 8.. and that the whole CREATION groans and is waiting for the manifestation of the sons of God.. to witness...

The REDEMPTION of our bodies..

All Christians have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE which is the earnest (or advance) of our inheritance in Him.. even unto the DAY of REDEMPTION.. and He that hath begun a good work in you, shall perform it.. even until the DAY of Jesus Christ..

 

[Kaliani]

Permitting the fall of mankind is not equivalent to directly causing it, wouldn't you say?

I agree.

 

[Kaliani]

Good point. After years of research and study my conclusions is that Adam and Eve is a story - not fact.

Meaning that it wasn't a reference to actual fruit trees (of life and forbidden knowledge) or an actual talking serpent? It was a symbolic teaching meant to point to something deeper?

 

[Drew]

some seem to have misunderstood me,
I'm basically asking why do we have this in-born tendency to sin (which is causing us all this problem), we did not have the free will to chose weather we want that sinful nature which separates us from god, only Adam and Eve were given such a free will, they were made upright but chose the wrong path, but we are NOT made upright, we apparently need a saviour for none of our fault.
Yes we do sin, but the reason is that we are born with a sinful nature for none of our fault.

Agreed - it is not "our fault" that we are born with a sinful nature. But it is still a problem that needs to be dealt with. I suspect that you, quite understandably, are mystified by the concept that you are somehow morally culpable for being born a certain way. Well, even though some Christians believe this, I do not believe this is what the Bible teaches. As I believe others have stated, while you may not be responsible for being born with a sinful nature, you are indeed responsible for dealing with the problem you inherited.

Consider this analogy: suppose you are born with an inherited disease that will kill you by age 30. Are you "responsible" for that? No. But suppose you are told that you can freely choose to take a certain medicine that will cure you. Are you "free" to choose to take that medicine? Indeed you are. And if you decide to not take it, you are, in a sense at least, responsible for dying at 30.

 

[smaller]

There are criminals who, for example, commit arson so they can 'heroically' put out their own fires.

These men are considered insane, and I think rightly so.

How does God, in your post, differ from these criminals smaller?

God is Greater than the sum of all things created.

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

The challenge for any observer/believer is to observe how that is so and where His Wisdom is in these matters.

It is the natural inclination to provide 'excuses' for God for the things we don't like.

s

 

[Davies]

Consider this analogy: suppose you are born with an inherited disease that will kill you by age 30. Are you "responsible" for that? No.

Good morning Drew,

What you said here reminded me of the man who was born blind. This Scripture may go a long way, hopefully, in answering Samfaps.
John 9:1-3

New King James Version (NKJV)

A Man Born Blind Receives Sight

9 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
3 Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him.


- Davies