Drying up of the Euphrates??

[digging]

I'm wanting to share something we have been studying on as a family.

What is the event of the drying of the Euphrates? Is there a pattern we can look to in the OT for answers? It seems to us more and more that there is a very strong parallel between the account of crossing the Jordan and the drying of the Euphrates.

They were in the wilderness for 40 years, Revelation speaks of the 'woman who birthed' as being in the wilderness for the '42'.

When they crossed the Jordan the first thing that happened was the city of the harlot fell after the 7 days/7trumpets very close to symbols in Revelation again.

So the question is what will be the event that fufills this drying of the river?

We now believe there is a moment coming when the systems of mankind really break down (for various reasons) and everyone who's life is dependant on said systems begin to die. ('get out of her my people')

It seems to us the drying of the river is pointing to a great crash in the human population on earth.

However Jesus was baptized in the Jordan River, there are many possible extra messages within that act. In revelation it says as the river dries it makes way for the Kings from the east.

We are thinking that the 1st resurrection will occur during this time of the drying of the river, and that is symbolized by the crossing the Jordan by Israel. Crossing is likened to baptism and the resurrection of the righteous.

Digging

 

[Deborah13]

Digging

Scripture please.
Just a reminder that I have to remember is this is the "Focus on Scripture" forum.

If I respond, I will need scripture to respond to and I will need to respond with scripture to support any view I may have.

 

[stovebolts]

[MENTION=93039]digging[/MENTION] and [MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]

I have moved this thread to the Bible Study forum for further discussion.

thank you!

 

[digging]

OK, but you might have jumped the gun by moving it!( I'm not complaining ;))

I just opened with the concept to see if anyone was interested in looking this over with me. Here are the vs's I've been reading in this regard.

Revelation 16:12 NAS

The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates ; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east .
Revelation 9:14 NAS

....., "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."15 And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they would kill a third of mankind

Revelation 17:15 NAS

And he said to me, "The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.

Thus far there is a very strong connection between the water and people.


Now we have the righteous woman

Rev12:5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron ; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. 6Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days

. (I see this as the same as the 42months, . 2 "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations ; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. 3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth)

Joshua 3:17 NAS

And the priests who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD stood firm on dry ground in the middle of the Jordan while all Israel crossed on dry ground, until all the nation had finished crossing the Jordan.

Joshua 4:23 NAS

"For the LORD your God dried up the waters of the Jordan before you until you had crossed, just as the LORD your God had done to the Red Sea, which He dried up before us until we had crossed ;(recall the Egyptians died in the sea, but Israel lived passing through it)

Joshua 2 So they went and came into the house of a harlot whose name was Rahab, and lodged there. ( this is why I called it the city of the Harlot, Jerico)

Joshua 6:13 NAS

The seven priests carrying the seven trumpets of rams' horns before the ark of the LORD went on continually, and blew the trumpets ; and the armed men went before them and the rear guard came after the ark of the LORD, while they continued to blow the trumpets.

Revelation 8:2 NAS

And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.

Matt 3:13Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him.

I hope that is enough vs's to get started!

Digging

PS here is one more vs I see connected to this

15 And the http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/revelation/12.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-45serpent http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/revelation/12.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-hpoured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. 16http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/revelation/12.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-iBut the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/revelation/12.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-jpoured out of his mouth.

When Israel crossed the Jordan was at flood heights, once again in this vs I believe the river is the body of mankind and the population crash is symbolized here by the drying up of this river, because when we die we go back to the dust of the earth.

 

[reba]

This is your home !

 

[digging]

Wow it's like I'm surfing all over!!

This topic is a combination I guess of looking at various accounts to help understand what the drying up really might mean. I'm having a break right now from my garden it's really hot so I'd like to share a bit more.

It seems there are many examples in the bible when water, drying or flooding is linked to death or destruction for many. The flood of Noah, The city of Tyre, old Babylon fell, (I'm still looking for the vs that speak about the river being diverted)

Ezekiel 27:32 NAS

"Moreover, in their wailing they will take up a lamentation for you And lament over you: 'Who is like Tyre, Like her who is silent in the midst of the sea ?

And http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/jeremiah/51.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-74I will dry up her http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/jeremiah/51.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-nnsea And make her fountain dry. 37 "http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/jeremiah/51.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-75Babylon will become a heap of ruins, a haunt of jackals, An http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/jeremiah/51.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-76object of horror and hissing, without inhabitants

 

[Deborah13]

The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river, the Euphrates ; and its water was dried up, so that the way would be prepared for the kings from the east .

Rev. 16 KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
Exodus 8 KJV
2 And if thou refuse to let them go, behold, I will smite all thy borders with frogs:
3 And the river shall bring forth frogs abundantly, which shall go up and come into thine house, and into thy bedchamber, and upon thy bed, and into the house of thy servants, and upon thy people, and into thine ovens, and into thy kneadingtroughs:
4 And the frogs shall come up both on thee, and upon thy people, and upon all thy servants.

In your two Joshua scriptures about the river drying up so the ark could be carried across, I see as a good example of the Lord using the same method to bless the nation of Israel. Then in Revelation it's the same method but it a curse to them when the armies can cross.
Then I see that the same symbolism in the frogs. The Lord used frogs against Egypt to bless them, in Rev. to curse them.

Yes trumpets were used to announce the Lord, in battle, the ark, in joyful celebration feast. Revelation, announcing the vengeance of the Lord.

In Revelation 12. I see v1 - The virgin Mary, the crown on her head representing the 12 tribes of Israel. I see the birth of Christ. satan is cast out of heaven. He send Herod to kill Jesus, but the family escape to Egypt and stays there until Herod is dead. While Herod men like a flood search but the Lord protected them.

As for Revelation 11, I'm not sure what you are saying about it.

This is just what I see now, I'm working at this and just praying that the Holy Spirit will help me to understand. And I'm always willing to listen and consider whatever someone has to offer.

Blessing

 

[Sinthesis]

Rev 16:12 is meant to associate the 6th century BC judgement of Babylon by God at the hands of Cyrus' army, with God's 1st century AD judgment against Jerusalem through the hands of the Romans, whose forces included four legions released from the Parthian frontier across the Euphrates.

There are lots of symbolic uses of water/rivers in the bible, but not all of them are applicable here.

 

[Deborah13]

Rev 16:12 is meant to associate the 6th century BC judgement of Babylon by God at the hands of Cyrus' army, with God's 1st century AD judgment against Jerusalem through the hands of the Romans, whose forces included four legions released from the Parthian frontier across the Euphrates.

There are lots of symbolic uses of water/rivers in the bible, but not all of them are applicable here.

Ah ha....relevant history, thanks.

 

[Deborah13]

Rev 16:12 is meant to associate the 6th century BC judgement of Babylon by God at the hands of Cyrus' army

Ok, after thinking about this a little more and a 1/2 cup of coffee, (lazy this morning, slept in) I'm wondering. Can this prophecy be speaking of other events in Israel's history other than the one event, that was the end of the old system?
I'm seeing this as the Revelation of Jesus Christ. So right now I'm trying to see this as all being directly connected to Him and His ministry. I'm thinking about it, the final straw if you will. Jesus said their house would be left to them desolate. Because they (and their fathers) had killed the prophets (including Him) stoned Stephen, and the apostles, the persecution of the Christians. They were trying to destroy the very thing He had come to do. So right now I'm thinking all these judgments did come on them after the crucifixion of the Messiah.
But I'm open to other perspectives on that.

 

[digging]

Thank-you for your comments, as I had mentioned in a different post when I read Revelation I see it speaking to two events in time some when Jesus Christ was here or when he will return. My understanding of Babylon the great is a symbol for the global world civilization. Since I believe in the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ I also believe God's plan of restoration is ment for the whole world.

Digging

 

[Deborah13]

Since I believe in the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ I also believe God's plan of restoration is ment for the whole world.

Yes, I see Jesus and His work, in the past, present, and future, in Revelation. His birth to His reign and kingdom and His future return (second coming).

I'm not sure what you mean by the portion of your post that I quoted?

 

[Sinthesis]

Rev 16:12 is meant to associate the 6th century BC judgement of Babylon by God at the hands of Cyrus' army

Ok, after thinking about this a little more and a 1/2 cup of coffee, (lazy this morning, slept in) I'm wondering. Can this prophecy be speaking of other events in Israel's history other than the one event, that was the end of the old system?
I'm seeing this as the Revelation of Jesus Christ. So right now I'm trying to see this as all being directly connected to Him and His ministry. I'm thinking about it, the final straw if you will. Jesus said their house would be left to them desolate. Because they (and their fathers) had killed the prophets (including Him) stoned Stephen, and the apostles, the persecution of the Christians. They were trying to destroy the very thing He had come to do. So right now I'm thinking all these judgments did come on them after the crucifixion of the Messiah.
But I'm open to other perspectives on that.

Yes, this is the revelation of Jesus Christ. Jesus gave God's people an entire generation to either accept or reject His teaching before sending the Romans to demonstrate just how worthless the temple system was after its associates had continually rejected God's gift of the Holy Spirit. It wasn't just how the Jewish leadership had treated Jesus, but how they self-righteously treated everybody, which was an insult to our God whom they also claimed to follow.

 

[Deborah13]

but how they self-righteously treated everybody, which was an insult to our God whom they also claimed to follow.

That brings into view all the teachings that Jesus gave them. They did some things but neglected the more important things, He said. They placed a heavy burden on the people but not themselves. 'Pride goes before a fall."

 

[John 8:32]

I have thought that the drying up of the Euphrates was symbolic of some event that makes it possible for the 200 million man army from teh east to march toward Har Megiddo. I am not really sure and have no firm opinion of what that particular event is. So, this may prove to be a very interesting thread.

 

[digging]

OK My comment about the whole world.....is connected to my understanding of the second coming of Jesus Christ. I agree Revelation has parts in it that speak about the first time he was here and the area of the world that was touched by him and the empire of Rome. However at his return I see his presence touching the whole world and all the nations, peoples and tongues. Thus I see Babylon the Great as something far larger than the little city of Jerusalem falling.

There are many points that have been brought up here in this thread I'm going to try to reply to one you made Deb,

"Yes trumpets were used to announce the Lord, in battle, the ark, in joyful celebration feast. Revelation, announcing the vengeance of the Lord."

In the example of the falling of Jericho and the blasting of the trumpets that was vengeance against the nations in the promise land but at the same time a celebration for God's people. Like wise in Revelation I feel, these Trumpets/bowls/seals are all similar as those first 7 trumpets around Jericho announcing the time for the arrival of God's people lead by the greater Joshua, Jesus Christ.

So vengeance against the nations of our time, while also marking the time for the arrival of God's appointed King Jesus to lead the righteous (1st resurrection) into the promise.

Deb did you mean Rev 12 and not Rev 11? Just so you can understand how I see the time line in Revelation presently ( I'm open to change)

At this time I understand the 1260 days, 42 months, 3 1/2 times all as marking the second half of the week whcih began when Jesus was resurrected. All the time between the events of his resurrection and the arrival of his 2nd coming I see that as the 1260 days. (Also I believe the return is yet to happen)

Digging

 

[digging]

Here is another vs that I feel is helpful to explain the symbolism that the water of the River Euphrates is this world of people.

Isaiah17: 12Alas, the uproar of many peoples http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/isaiah/17.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-24Who roar like the roaring of the seas, And the rumbling of nations Who rush on like the http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/isaiah/17.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-25rumbling of mighty waters ! 13 The http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/isaiah/17.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-26nations rumble on like the rumbling of many waters, But He will http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/isaiah/17.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-27rebuke them and they will flee far away, And be chased http://www.biblestudytools.com/nas/isaiah/17.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-28like chaff in the mountains before the wind, Or like whirling dust before a gale.

Digging

 

[Deborah13]

Deb did you mean Rev 12 and not Rev 11? Just so you can understand how I see the time line in Revelation presently ( I'm open to change)

." (I see this as the same as the 42months, . 2 "Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations ; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. 3 "And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth)"

Above is from your posted. Rev 11. So this is what I wasn't sure what you were saying about it.
I see this as speaking of Jerusalem "the holy city". I don't know of any other city God has called holy.
8 and their dead bodies [are] upon the broad-place of the great city (that is called spiritually Sodom, and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified,)

I'm not sure but I inclined to think of the two witness that are witnessing that Jesus is the Messiah. Are these, the law and the prophets, and the Holy Spirit They both bear witness and testimony as to who Jesus was for the 3.5 years of his ministry and beyond until this day. He was the culmination of these two.
John 1:45
Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith to him, `Him of whom Moses wrote in the Law, and the prophets, we have found, Jesus the son of Joseph, who [is] from Nazareth;'
Acts 28:23
and having appointed him a day, they came, more of them unto him, to the lodging, to whom he was expounding, testifying fully the reign of God, persuading them also of the things concerning Jesus, both from the law of Moses, and the prophets, from morning till evening,
John 1:32 And John testified, saying -- `I have seen the Spirit coming down, as a dove, out of heaven, and it remained on him;



Others have said that these two may be literally Moses and Elijah, I don't. When John see these two as being dead 3 days and a half and then they rise. I see this as Jesus being raised from the dead in 3 days. He was the fulfillment of the law of Moses and the prophets, and the Holy Spirit.
One of the reasons I see it this way is because of how John described them.
Revelation 11:4 these are the two olive [trees], and the two lamp-stands that before the God of the earth do stand;

So trees very often represent people in this case olive trees. Lampstands represent churches, the light that shines in the darkness, etc.
Zechariah 4 YLT
12 And I answer a second time, and say unto him, `What [are] the two branches of the olive trees that, by means of the two golden pipes, are emptying out of themselves the oil?'
13 And he speaketh unto me, saying, `Hast thou not known what these [are]?' And I say, `No, my lord.'
14 And he saith, `These [are] the two sons of the oil, who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth.'

Romans 11:17
And if certain of the branches were broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wast graffed in among them, and a fellow-partaker of the root and of the fatness of the olive tree didst become --

So I see the Messiah, the blending of the old and the new. Those of the Jews and the Gentile coming to gather in Him. The oil of the Spirit being poured out.

 

[digging]

Sorry about that mix up!!

Thank-you Deb for taking the time to reply, I think we are seeing closely the same.

OK, let's talk a little more about the two witnesses since I did mention the account. I want you to know I'm not trying to appear like I'm so certain about this or that in Rev, but so far where I'm at in my own journey of understand these are some of the things the book brings to my mind.

I found vs 7 important.

"7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them"

I asked myself, what testimony did they finish? Then I found this later vs in Rev

Revelation 19:10 NAS

"........... For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Here is what this whole vs means to me,

Two groups, faithful Jewish brothers along with the early Christian brothers both bore testimony to Jesus Christ as having been the Messiah, the promised one who was resurrected. I see them as the two witnesses, Jesus fufilled all prophecy about himself thus their testimony was completed in Christ!

The beast that came up out of the Abyss for me is revived Rome (IF Jesus had stay on earth God's Kingdom would have finished all the nations, I see this as the same event as the sword stroke revived head) Rome then made war on all the faithful components that had supported Jesus Christ coming into the world. The nation of Israel and the early brotherhood of Christianity both were attacted and many killed.

The 3 1/2 days of death, I see as the same symbol for the time period between the leaving of Jesus and the returning of him.

Digging

 

[Deborah13]

Thank-you Deb for taking the time to reply, I think we are seeing closely the same.

Well this is good for me, too. I'm just trying to get somewhat of a grip on this. So I'm not teaching here, we are just studying and bouncing thoughts off each other.

I just saw where my thoughts about the witnesses must be off, I think. The witnesses are taken up, which is fine if the two are the law and the prophets. But not so for the Holy Spirit, He is here with us, too. Unless I'm missing something. Hmm...?? Rethink. Which throws off the Holy Spirit being one that is relevant to the new covenant and church age.

Two groups, faithful Jewish brothers along with the early Christian brothers both bore testimony to Jesus Christ as having been the Messiah, the promised one who was resurrected. I see them as the two witnesses, Jesus fufilled all prophecy about himself thus their testimony was completed in Christ!

I can see why you see that.

The beast that came up out of the Abyss for me is revived Rome

I too, see the beast as the Romans, just not a revived Rome.
Revelation 17 YLT
9 `Here [is] the mind that is having wisdom; the seven heads are seven mountains, upon which the woman doth sit,
10 and there are seven kings, the five did fall, and the one is, the other did not yet come, and when he may come, it behoveth him to remain a little time;
11 and the beast that was, and is not, he also is eighth, and out of the seven he is, and to destruction he doth go away.

I think these scripture give a clue as to when this all happened, in my view anyway.

15 And he saith to me, `The waters that thou didst see, where the whore doth sit, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues;'
16 and the ten horns that thou didst see upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her in fire,
17 for God did give into their hearts to do its mind, and to make one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast till the sayings of God may be complete,
18 and the woman that thou didst see is the great city that is having reign over the kings of the land.'

Do you see the city as Jerusalem and therefore the woman?
I'm tried tonight, so this all for now. Thank you for engaging in this conversation.