easy believism

[Rajesh Sahu]

Jesus is so much more than a “good teacher”. This man simply didn’t understand who Jesus was. To him, He was just a good teacher, not God (of the universe). Unlike the Roman jailer, this man didn’t have the hindsight of the risen Lord Jesus Christ. Nor did this man:

if the man didn't understand Who Christ was, why didn't Jesus explain ?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

if the man didn't understand Who Christ was, why didn't Jesus explain ?

I found a major divergence in the doctrine of servant Paul and Master Christ. Paul was teaching Believing is saving . while Jesus was teaching both belief and obedience ( and baptism) were required for salvation ( Matthew 28:18-2 )
But our learned member JLB here explained to me that when we study Paul's words , we must read BELIEF as OBEDIENCE .Whenever Paul taught belief he expected the hearers to understand the BELIEF included obedience . This way his doctrine becomes consistent with what Christ taught

 

[chessman]

if the man didn't understand Who Christ was, why didn't Jesus explain ?

Have you read the two passages in context?

Dr. Luke explains how it pleases God to hide the Kingdom from the ‘wise’ yet reveal it to the childlike:

At the very hour, He rejoiced-greatly in the Holy Spirit and said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You hid these things from wise ones and intelligent ones, and You revealed them to children . Yes, Father, because in this manner it became well-pleasing in Your sight. All things were handed-over to Me by My Father. And no one knows Who the Son is except the Father, and Who the Father is except the Son— and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him ”.​

Luke 10:21-22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 10:21-22&version=DLNT

In this way, salvation gives ALL the glory to ... ( you guessed it) ... the Savior.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

2 scriptures comes to mind (1) proverbs 14: 12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
(2)
2 Timothy 2:23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

your post still does not answer Why Jesus did not tell either the Rich man or the Teacher of law ,BELIEVE IN ME TO BE SAVED , much as thousands of churches teach nowadays. So why didn't Jesus say that?

 

[brujaq]

John 9 New King James Version (NKJV)
A Man Born Blind Receives Sight
9 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
3 Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him. 4 I[a] must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work. 5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
6 When He had said these things, He spat on the ground and made clay with the saliva; and He anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay. 7 And He said to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which is translated, Sent). So he went and washed, and came back seeing.
8 Therefore the neighbors and those who previously had seen that he was blind[b] said, “Is not this he who sat and begged?”
9 Some said, “This is he.” Others said, “He is like him.”[c]
He said, “I am he.”
10 Therefore they said to him, “How were your eyes opened?”
11 He answered and said, “A Man called Jesus made clay and anointed my eyes and said to me, ‘Go to the pool of[d] Siloam and wash.’ So I went and washed, and I received sight.”
12 Then they said to him, “Where is He?”
He said, “I do not know.”

13 They brought him who formerly was blind to the Pharisees. 14 Now it was a Sabbath when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes. 15 Then the Pharisees also asked him again how he had received his sight. He said to them, “He put clay on my eyes, and I washed, and I see.”
16 Therefore some of the Pharisees said, “This Man is not from God, because He does not keep the Sabbath.”
Others said, “How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?” And there was a division among them.
17 They said to the blind man again, “What do you say about Him because He opened your eyes?”
He said, “He is a prophet.”
18 But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind and received his sight, until they called the parents of him who had received his sight. 19 And they asked them, saying, “Is this your son, who you say was born blind? How then does he now see?”
20 His parents answered them and said, “We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind; 21 but by what means he now sees we do not know, or who opened his eyes we do not know. He is of age; ask him. He will speak for himself.” 22 His parents said these things because they feared the Jews, for the Jews had agreed already that if anyone confessed that He was Christ, he would be put out of the synagogue. 23 Therefore his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.”
24 So they again called the man who was blind, and said to him, “Give God the glory! We know that this Man is a sinner.”
25 He answered and said, “Whether He is a sinner or not I do not know. One thing I know: that though I was blind, now I see.”
26 Then they said to him again, “What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?”
27 He answered them, “I told you already, and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you also want to become His disciples?”
28 Then they reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but we are Moses’ disciples. 29 We know that God spoke to Moses; as for this fellow,we do not know where He is from.”
30 The man answered and said to them, “Why, this is a marvelous thing, that you do not know where He is from; yet He has opened my eyes! 31 Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him. 32 Since the world began it has been unheard of that anyone opened the eyes of one who was born blind. 33 If this Man were not from God, He could do nothing.”
34 They answered and said to him, “You were completely born in sins, and are you teaching us?” And they cast him out.

35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He said to him, “Do you believe in the Son of God?”[e]
36 He answered and said, “Who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”
37 And Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.”
38 Then he said, “Lord, I believe!” And he worshiped Him.
39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”
40 Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind also?”
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains.

 

[chessman]

But our learned member JLB here explained to me that when we study Paul's words , we must read BELIEF as OBEDIENCE .Whenever Paul taught belief he expected the hearers to understand the BELIEF included obedience .

JLB taught me the same thing. Been in church my whole life, no preacher ever pointed out that fact to me before JLB did. He’s a great lover of Jesus’ word that man!

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Have you read the two passages in context?

Dr. Luke explains how it pleases God to hide the Kingdom from the ‘wise’ yet reveal it to the childlike:

At the very hour, He rejoiced-greatly in the Holy Spirit and said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You hid these things from wise ones and intelligent ones, and You revealed them to children . Yes, Father, because in this manner it became well-pleasing in Your sight. All things were handed-over to Me by My Father. And no one knows Who the Son is except the Father, and Who the Father is except the Son— and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him ”.​

Luke 10:21-22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 10:21-22&version=DLNT

In this way, salvation gives ALL the glory to ... ( you guessed it) ... the Savior.

So is Christ's gospel to be taught differently to different people . Hide from some , reveal to some others ? Because if that's true Jesus held back the truth from rich man and the teacher of Law , so that both may get condemned ?

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

JLB taught me the same thing. Been in church my whole life, no preacher ever pointed out that fact to me before JLB did. He’s a great lover of Jesus’ word that man!

yes I believe JLB has an amazing grasp of the Word. i have learned much from him
I have also profited from many other contributors as well here. everyone has their own unique take and which really broadens the mind, and enriches the knowledge . JLB is my teacher

 

[ezra]

your post still does not answer Why Jesus did not tell either the Rich man or the Teacher of law ,BELIEVE IN ME TO BE SAVED , much as thousands of churches teach nowadays. So why didn't Jesus say that?

sigh if i really reply it will in sarcasm and the forum police will delete my answer . this started out a good thread to bad i dont have the power to delete it

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

sigh if i really reply it will in sarcasm and the forum police will delete my answer . this started out a good thread to bad i dont have the power to delete it

it's an excellent thread Ezra. it gave us an opportunity to share our views on a very important topic. it deals with the HEART of the Christian doctrine. Thank you for posting it. Easy believism doctrine , cheap grace if you will, is now picking steam and many are questioning its truth and relevance , which hopefully will lead to a correction . So it's all good brother .
I believe it would be exceedingly prudent to read the red lettered words of Jesus in the NT...repeatedly, before studying Paul's 13 books / epistles in the NT. Else there is a good chance of losing track of Christ's all precious words and expectations . And yet again I say, didiligently apply JLB's golden advice when reading Paul! Read believe as obey

 

[brujaq]

So is Christ's gospel to be taught differently to different people . Hide from some , reveal to some others ? Because if that's true Jesus held back the truth from rich man and the teacher of Law , so that both may get condemned ?

We are fishers of men, we don't ever change the gospel ..

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

We are fishers of men, we don't ever change the gospel ..

Exactly. we have to teach the correct gospel though. Even pastors like Benny Hinn and Osteen can boast of having millions flocking to them. But what is their doctrine? Is it what Jesus taught? I believe the ones who teach false doctrine are in danger of being condemned warns
Revelation 22:19 ►

And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.​

 

[chessman]

when we study Paul's words , we must read BELIEF as OBEDIENCE

p.s. it’s not as if it’s ‘Paul’s word’. That’s just the Greek word’s scope of meaning. That’s why you see the same Greek word sometimes translated ss “belief” and sometimes ss “obedience”. Essentially, it’s both, in this case. Remember that, it works both ways. When you see the word obedience it includes an aspect of our word belief (and vica versa).

So is Christ's gospel to be taught differently from du fee sent people .

No, of course not. It’s above our pay grade to know whether or not a person has a preceptive childlike heart. God does though.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

p.s. it’s not as if it’s ‘Paul’s word’. That’s just the Greek word’s scope of meaning. That’s why you see the same Greek word sometimes translated ss “belief” and sometimes ss “obedience”. Essentially, it’s both, in this case. Remember that, it works both ways. When you see the word obedience it includes an aspect of our word belief (and vica versa).


No, of course not. It’s above our pay grade to know whether or not a person has a preceptive childlike heart. God does though.

Amen. Nicely explained Chessman. Thank you

 

[brujaq]

Exactly. we have to teach the correct gospel though. Even pastors like Benny Hinn and Osteen can boast of having millions flocking to them. But what is their doctrine? Is it what Jesus taught? I believe the ones who teach false doctrine are in danger of being condemned warns
Revelation 22:19 ►

And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.​

Just curious Rajesh, what is their doctrine ?

 

[Papa Zoom]

Here above Jesus is pointing at OBEYING the commandments in order to get saved. Why didn't Jesus tell the rich man BELIEVE IN ME . But he didn't. Why?

For one, they were still under the OT law. There was no final sacrifice for sins as in the Cross of Christ.
For another, the man had a problem. He loved his money. Jesus was pointing this out to him. He was placing his love of money over his love of God. His faith therefore was not in God, but in money. The system that Jesus lived under and obeyed (perfectly) was the Law. The man was under the law. After the resurrection, under grace.

On both occasions Jesus chose not to advise these two gentlemen BELIEVE IN ME to inherit eternal life . Why didn't Jesus tell them that.

Because it wasn't the point of the story. The point in the second story is to show that all of mankind, by virtue of being image bearers of God, are our neighbors. And love, is the key.

I'm just guessing but I'll bet you haven't sold all your worldly goods and given every last penny to the poor.

Another thing, your promotion against Paul's apostleship is problematic. For one, IF Paul was of Satan as you claim, then God failed in preserving His Word.

If Paul was indeed an Apostle of Christ and Paul's words are given to us under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, And YOU are attributing his words to the works of Satan, then you are committing the textbook definition of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. IOW, you are in serious error.

Either way you slice it, you are in error, with one being worse than the other.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I found a major divergence in the doctrine of servant Paul and Master Christ. Paul was teaching Believing is saving . while Jesus was teaching both belief and obedience ( and baptism) were required for salvation ( Matthew 28:18-2 )
But our learned member JLB here explained to me that when we study Paul's words , we must read BELIEF as OBEDIENCE .Whenever Paul taught belief he expected the hearers to understand the BELIEF included obedience . This way his doctrine becomes consistent with what Christ taught

This is simply not factual. Paul taught much more than just believing. Paul lived his life as an example as a servant of Christ - so much so that he was flogged, jailed, beaten, and eventually killed for his faith in Jesus. Paul often gave teachings on how one ought to conduct themselves (obedience) in both the House of God and in our general lives. People may have twisted Paul's message but it's a message that is fully consistent with the words of the Lord Jesus. You need to stay away from those wacky websites.

 

[ezra]

Ezra I'm sure you can explain your post better than the above. I simply had asked if the word "believe" is ever used in the generic sense. In other words in the general or inclusive sense? A simple yes or no will suffice. Thank you.

Billy i have no desire to post on this question i gave my answer i showed you in scripture which is not generic .

 

[ezra]

For one, they were still under the OT law. There was no final sacrifice for sins as in the Cross of Christ.
For another, the man had a problem. He loved his money. Jesus was pointing this out to him. He was placing his love of money over his love of God. His faith therefore was not in God, but in money. The system that Jesus lived under and obeyed (perfectly) was the Law. The man was under the law. After the resurrection, under grace.



Because it wasn't the point of the story. The point in the second story is to show that all of mankind, by virtue of being image bearers of God, are our neighbors. And love, is the key.

I'm just guessing but I'll bet you haven't sold all your worldly goods and given every last penny to the poor.

Another thing, your promotion against Paul's apostleship is problematic. For one, IF Paul was of Satan as you claim, then God failed in preserving His Word.

If Paul was indeed an Apostle of Christ and Paul's words are given to us under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, And YOU are attributing his words to the works of Satan, then you are committing the textbook definition of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. IOW, you are in serious error.

Either way you slice it, you are in error, with one being worse than the other.

 

[Rajesh Sahu]

Just curious Rajesh, what is their doctrine ?

Brujaq i wish not to be drawn into a discussion about Osteen or Hinn. The reason I referenced them was that there are churches who claim to be Christ's churches but do not teach the right doctrine, Well here is what gotquestions.org an established Christian website wishes to say about Osteen. I am Rajesh GOOGLE Sahu for ya
https://www.gotquestions.org/Joel-Osteen.html