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End Times Confusing - Preterism

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I would like to talk about the day of the Lord but firstbi think it's important to establish some facts about Math.24. Please answer the following questions with a yes or no answer. Add one sentence if you feel it's necessary to qualify your answer.

According to Math.24:1-3 is the context of this chapter about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad? Yes or no
Since in the Greek the word for "world" actually means "age", is it logical to assume that the "end of the age" refers to the end of the "Mosiac age" which was still in operation and not to the "church age" which had not even come into existence yet? Yes or no
In verse 15 when Jesus says to his disciples "you shall see the abomination of desolation...", is it not grammatically and contextually correct to suppose that Jesus meant the people whom he was talking to would see this? Yes or no
Since Jesus said "that generation" (you shall see) would see the abomination of desolation, is it correct to assume that they in fact saw it? Yes or no
In verse 29 is Jesus quoting/referencing OT scriptures such as Isa.13:10 Ezekiel 32:8 Joel.2:31 Amos 8:9, and are these OT scriptures speaking of the "day of the Lord"? Yes or no
In verse 30 when Jesus says "...the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven", us he making reference to Dan.7:13..."the Son of man cane with the clouds of heaven..."? Yes or no
In verse 34 when Jesus said "this generation" he was literally looking at and speaking to his contemporary "generation"? Yes or no
Since Jesus was speaking to his own contemporary generation when he said "this generation", it is therefore grammatically and contextually correct to assume that the generation he was referring to was the generation he was speaking to (his 1st century generation)? Yes or no
 
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Re: End Times confusing

According to Math.24:1-3 is the context of this chapter about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad? Yes or no
Matthew 24:1 No "Jesus went out, and departed from the temple."
Matthew 24:2 Yes "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
Matthew 24:3
Yes "When shall these things be?"
No "What shall be the sign of thy coming?
No "What shall be . . the end of the world or age?
 
Re: End Times confusing

Since in the Greek the word for "world" actually means "age", is it logical to assume that the "end of the age" refers to the end of the "Mosiac age" which was still in operation and not to the "church age" which had not even come into existence yet? Yes or no
No. Matthew 24:3 "What shall be the sign of thy coming, AND of the end of the world, or age?"
 
Re: End Times confusing

In verse 15 when Jesus says to his disciples "you shall see the abomination of desolation...", is it not grammatically and contextually correct to suppose that Jesus meant the people whom he was talking to would see this? Yes or no
No. It seems those told that were dead by that time you suggest.
 
Re: End Times confusing

1. "when shall these things be"
That is, when will Jerusalem be destroyed
"what shall be the sign of your coming"
That is your coming in judgment and vengeance on Jerusalem (luke21:22 "these be the days of vengeance")
"and the end of the age"
That is the age of Judaism which was still in operation at that time

The disciples asked these specific questions because by this time they understood that the destruction of Jerusalem meant God would "come to" the nation in judgment, and this judgment would mark the completion of that old age which was "ready to vanish away".
But if you can't see this that's ok.

2. Verse 15 should simple. This is a simple matter of the rules of grammer. If I said to you that YOU would see the abomination of desolation than YOU would assume that I meant YOU would in fact see it. Jesus told THEM that THEY would see it so i guarantee you that they saw it. The problem is we don't understand what it was that Jesus said they would see, that's why we can't take Jesus' plain and literal words at face value.

Compare Matthew 24:15-16 with Luke 21:20-21 and you will see and understand what Daniels abomination of desolation was.
Between 67-70 ad THEY saw it, just like Jesus said they would!

When you get a chance could you answer the rest of my "yes or no" questions please.
Blessings brother
 
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Re: End Times confusing

1. "when shall these things be"
That is, when will Jerusalem be destroyed
"what shall be the sign of your coming"
That is your coming in judgment and vengeance on Jerusalem (luke21:22 "these be the days of vengeance")
"and the end of the age"
That is the age of Judaism which was still in operation at that time
Grammer and anything else you want to add will not make Judaism in effect at 70 AD. Judaism ended with the finished work of Christ at Calvary.
 
Re: End Times confusing

You are confusing "covenant" with "age".
The old covenant ended at the cross because of the finished work of Christ. However, the law which had been fulfilled and abolished continued to be practiced for another 40 years (30-70ad)
Age: "a period of time dominated by a central figure or prominent feature"
"a cultural period marked by the prominence of a particular item"
(websters new collegiate dictionary)

Although their had been a change in covenant through the cross, the Jews and even some Gentiles continued to struggle with the fulfilled "period of time" (the Mosiac age) which was "dominated by a central figure" (the temple and it's system). They wrestled with a "cultural period" (the Mosiac/Judaic age) which was kept alive because of the existing temple and entire sacrificial system.
This was the purpose of it's destruction. To break the control and domination of the fulfilled then useless old "age of Judaism" the temple and every " element was melted with a fervent heat" (burned with fire in 70ad). After the temple was destroyed that old "cultural period" would now lose all influence on the new covenant church since it would be impossible to adhere to that system without a temple.

The end of the covenant at the cross was to free men from sin and the curse, the end of the age in 70ad was to free men from religious bondage to a fulfilled and abolished old covenant system.

Please answer the rest of my "yes or no" questions when you can
Thanks
 
Re: End Times confusing

Verse 15 should simple. This is a simple matter of the rules of grammer. If I said to you that YOU would see the abomination of desolation than YOU would assume that I meant YOU would in fact see it. Jesus told THEM that THEY would see it so i guarantee you that they saw it.
The time line you want me to be believe is that the "They" told they would see the abomination of Desolation certainly didn't include Peter that died 64 AD, Andrew 62 AD, James the greater 44 AD, and Phillip 60 AD.
 
Re: End Times confusing

In verse 29 is Jesus quoting/referencing OT scriptures such as Isa.13:10 Ezekiel 32:8 Joel.2:31 Amos 8:9, and are these OT scriptures speaking of the "day of the Lord"? Yes or no
Yes - Do not omit the word "After the tribulation."
 
Re: End Times confusing

Since Jesus was speaking to his own contemporary generation when he said "this generation", it is therefore grammatically and contextually correct to assume that the generation he was referring to was the generation he was speaking to (his 1st century generation)? Yes or no
No.
 
Re: End Times confusing

Just a few points...

Mat 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are very helpful. They are the keys to the seals...

1st Seal - Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

2nd Seal - Rev 6:3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

3rd Seal - Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

4th Seal - Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

5th Seal - Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

6th Seal - Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

7th Seal - is made up of the Seven Trumpets.

The Seventh and last Trump is the return of Christ and the 7 Last Plagues.

Revelation contains some inset chapters to help clarify, chapter 7 is an example, so is chapter 12.

The outline above will help to get you started.

This is good. But one needs to bring in the Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 verses as well as Gen. 41:32 for how God works!
Eccl. 1
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
[10] Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

Eccl. 3
[14] I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
[15] That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

And this is mandatory. Gen. 41
[32] And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established by God, and God will shortly bring it to pass.

Now about the understanding? It has to have a required repeat where it is needed. Case in point is Matt. 24:14. When the Eternal True Gospel goes into all of the World, then the End will come. And it did as stated, but we are still here! WHY?? [Because it requires a REPEAT!]
See Rom. 10:18
[18] But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

&

Col. 1:23
[23] If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

And surely we can read the [fine] print!

--Elijah
 
Re: End Times confusing

According to Math.24:1-3 is the context of this chapter about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad? Yes or no

No. There is no mention of the events of 70 AD in Jesus' Olivet Discourse. Matthew 24:4-25:46 - Mark 13

Since in the Greek the word for "world" actually means "age", is it logical to assume that the "end of the age" refers to the end of the "Mosaic age" which was still in operation and not to the "church age" which had not even come into existence yet? Yes or no

No. There is no such phrase in scripture as Mosaic Age. Luke 20:34-35


In verse 15 when Jesus says to his disciples "you shall see the abomination of desolation...", is it not grammatically and contextually correct to suppose that Jesus meant the people whom he was talking to would see this? Yes or no

No. Jesus is speaking to the Church, as represented by His 12 who were present, as qualified by the phrase; And what I say to you, I say to all: Watch!" Mark 13:37

Since Jesus said "that generation" (you shall see) would see the abomination of desolation, is it correct to assume that they in fact saw it? Yes or no

No. Because the scripture does not say "that generation would see".

In verse 29 is Jesus quoting/referencing OT scriptures such as Isa.13:10 Ezekiel 32:8 Joel.2:31 Amos 8:9, and are these OT scriptures speaking of the "day of the Lord"? Yes or no

Yes Isaiah 13:10 & Joel 2:31

No: Amos 8:9 & Ezekiel 32:8

In verse 30 when Jesus says "...the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven", us he making reference to Dan.7:13..."the Son of man cane with the clouds of heaven..."? Yes or no

The Prophecy is about a future event as the fourth beast with 10 horns which are ten kingdoms are forming now.

In verse 34 when Jesus said "this generation" he was literally looking at and speaking to his contemporary "generation"? Yes or no

No. The generation that sees the Abomination of Desolation.

Since Jesus was speaking to his own contemporary generation when he said "this generation", it is therefore grammatically and contextually correct to assume that the generation he was referring to was the generation he was speaking to (his 1st century generation)?

No. This generation that sees the Abomination of Desolation and Sun, moon and stars event.


JLB
 
Re: End Times confusing

Post#33-35
When Jesus said "you shall see the abomination of desolation" his words were obviously not limited to Peter Andrew James
And Phillip. In verse 34 "this generation" means that some alive at that time (not one person in particular) would see the abomination of desolation.

Look at Math.24:35-16 "When YOU therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken if by Daniel the prophet stand in the holy place....
(Now notice the next verse)
V16 "then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains"

Jesus tells them when they the AOD they should flee to the mountains

Now look at Luke 21:20-21 "And when YOU shall see Jerusalem compasses with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh"
(now look at the next verse)
V21 "then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains..."

Luke explains what the AOD is!

The AOD was the Roman armies that surrounded Jerusalem and in time entered the holy place and desecrated the temple
Put the Math and Luke together.
When THEY SAW the AOD they were to flee to the mountains
When THEY SAW the Roman armies they were to flee to the mountains

When that generation saw the Roman armies which was the OAD they were to flee to the mountains.
 
Re: End Times confusing

Post #36
the words "after the tribulation" obviously refer to the tribulation of the roman seige. This was the "great tribulation" of "those days.
 
Re: End Times confusing

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

but the 4th Trumpet is also 1/3 of the light of the moon and sun darkened.

The real message here is metaphoric, and can be better understood through reading about the 'Days of the Lord' visited upon other cultures in the OT.
Hmmm...maybe the whole bible is metaphoric. So who decides what is metaphoric or not? Ahh....i get it if it is something that doesn't in with one's belief system then it will be called metaphoric i.e. not true.:)
 
Re: End Times confusing

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

but the 4th Trumpet is also 1/3 of the light of the moon and sun darkened.

The real message here is metaphoric, and can be better understood through reading about the 'Days of the Lord' visited upon other cultures in the OT.
Hmmm...maybe the whole bible is metaphoric. So who decides what is metaphoric or not? Ahh....i get it if it is something that doesn't in with one's belief system then it will be called metaphoric i.e. not true.:)

BINGO!

I for one take things as literally as possible.

Hence - I count 4 possibly 5 literal abomination of desolation.

1. Destruction of First temple
2. Greeks sacrifice Pig in Temple
3. Destruction of Second Temple'
4. Mosque built over the Holy of Holies
5. Possible Hybrid Catholic/Islamic religious leader presiding over Mt Zion.
 
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