End Times Confusing - Preterism

[jasoncran]

another friend of mine texted me that he know believes that jesus is on the throne and reigns from heaven.

 

[Deborah13]

none, why? the temple cant be holy again. for inorder for the idea of the abononation of desolation to occur again that would have to change the work of the cross. also the signs that the first jewish/ gentile audience had to look for would be something that they knew to look for otherwise its gibberish to them. why would god judge isreal for killing jesus twice?

Thank you, for responding Jason. Some people agree that it did happen in 70 AD but will repeat in the future. Double prophecy.

why would god judge isreal for killing jesus twice? or any of the prophets for that matter. got it

the temple cant be holy again. for inorder for the idea of the abononation of desolation to occur again that would have to change the work of the cross.
No it can't be holy but would the unbelieving Jews see it that way. Go ahead and build the temple (they are saying there is room to do that if they don't build the outer court) and have it destroyed again. I know I must be missing something spiritual here in the understanding of the temple or something? Can you help. Because if they don't believe in Messiah they will think it is holy before God?
If they do this will God let it go I wonder?

I am a jew, my brother, a great uncle, and a few others that I know, all are jews and none of the testimonies that I have heard, have said it had to do with the third temple, but the cross and the sin that they had. my aunt a devout jewess know attends a Baptist church. God used my brothers wedding to get here to listen to the Lord.how many jews are saved , have been saved, and will be? countless and that fulfills what paul spoke of in romans 10.

Yes, I can see that is so.

 

[Deborah13]

if one where to look to the history of ad 70 you will find the oblations did cease. a covenant to isreal was made and the prince died for that.

I did read most of what I could find about this online. Trying to find more.

 

[JLB]

if one where to look to the history of ad 70 you will find the oblations did cease. a covenant to isreal was made and the prince died for that.

The problem with your reasoning is:

The Abomination of Desolation occurs after the destruction of the city and sanctuary.

The AOD occurs after the year 70 AD.

26 After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed.


... will destroy the city and the sanctuary. This is clearly the year 70 AD


27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator."

Clearly the events of verse 27 come after the year 70 AD.

The AOD occurs after the year 70 AD.

How can anyone deny this?


JLB

 

[Hope of glory]

JBL (reply to post 235)

My answers are still yes and yes.
My post 316 was explaining why both questions can be yes. Again, Jesus' "coming in the clouds was not a "literal event"

It was after the tribulation which culminated in the destruction of the temple, that they would "see" (perceive and understand) that Jesus had "come in the clouds" in judgment upon them at the hands of the Romsns, and that he had now been vindicated as rightful King.

Again, Jesus' "coming in the clouds" was not a literal event, but a revelation (a revealing) of his judgment and vindication which he accomplished at the hands of the Romans.
When you can understand and admit that Jesus' words in Math.24:30 "coming in the clouds" do not refer to his second coming, then you will "see" (perceive and understand) the true meaning of the text.

Are you going to respond to my post 305, or will you keep avoiding it JLB.
Its very strange that not ONE futurist has responded to it???????
Surely if it did not make sense someone would have refuted it by now.
Maybe it's the truth, and knowone wants to admit it!!!!!!
You know it JLB.

 

[Hope of glory]

JLB ( reply to post 331)

Show me in Dan.9:27
The "Antichrist
The "rebuilt" temple
A "7 year covenant"
The "breaking" of a covenant
A 7 year "tribulation"

Note:
"he will confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 years)
It does not say....he will make a 7 year covenant with many for one week

The covenant was to be confirmed for 7 years
Not a 7 year covenant

Huge difference!!!!!

 

[endtimesdeut32/70AD]

Remember, you are the one that said The destruction of the temple was Jesus coming, "in Judgement" as described in Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

JLB

Another point is that the word 'earth' to a first century jewish context and hearer was the 'earth' or land domain of Judea. That was the 'earth' to which they hoped to remain in.

Read Isaiah 24 and 25 noting the times the 'earth' is mentioned in reference to judgment to come on the people and ways of that covenant and at the time [lifespan] of the coming of Messiah.

Excerpt from Isaiah 24.

See, the Lord is going to lay waste the earth
and devastate it;

The earth will be completely laid waste
and totally plundered.
The Lord has spoken this word.
4 The earth dries up and withers,
the world languishes and withers,
the heavens languish with the earth.
5 The earth is defiled by its people;
they have disobeyed the laws,
violated the statutes
and broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore a curse consumes the earth;
its people must bear their guilt.
Therefore earth’s inhabitants are burned up,
and very few are left.

Where in Isaiah 24 does it say that the earth is the land of Judea?

This is a Prophecy of the Day of the Lord and His vengeance upon the evil doers of the earth.

21 It shall come to pass in that day That the Lord will punish on high the host of exalted ones, And on the earth the kings of the earth. 22 They will be gathered together, As prisoners are gathered in the pit,And will be shut up in the prison; After many days they will be punished. 23 Then the moon will be disgraced And the sun ashamed; For the Lord of hosts will reign On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem And before His elders, gloriously.

For the Lord of hosts will reign On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem And before His elders, gloriously.

More twisting of God's word to try and a Preterism Point.


JLB

Because this (first century) is the time context, scope and parameters of most (not all) of Isaiahs prophecies. See is 29 for another; especially verse 1-4 which describes the seige of Jerus

alem and the message of its desolation ti all peoples. God said that its desolatiin ( a ssociated with the mosaic covt administratiin) would be as Ariel (peace) to him.

One of us here is not willing to objectively consider the obvious focus of the prophets to Israel of the temporary mosaic covt.
See again Acts 3:23-25. The prophets foretold these days of the first century and lifespan of Christ.
See Deut 32:22 were the judgement on "the earth" is referrin to the land of the mosaic covt. because that is what moses is addressing in his speech; the ending of which is ch 32. Compare the end of that chapter where the nations are to rejoice with his people (vs 43) his sons and daughters though faith in gods incarnatiin. Hiw can the natiins "rejoice" if they are destroyed with a "global" earth???


The prophets did not prophecy to the church or to all people þbut were prophets given during thae temporary mosaic covt and its temporary national entity.

Thus, perhaps it could be your perspective and understanding which applies these prophecies beyond their intended audience and meaning which is "twisted" and in error.

 

[Hope of glory]

JLB (reply to post 336)

Math.24:15
"when you shall therefor see the AOD".....this generation shall not pass till all these things come to pass" (v.34)

Stop making our Lord a liar please

 

[Hope of glory]

Here is my argument.
All futurists have avoided this post and silently refuse to address it. This post will not go away, someone needs to step up and face the music.

Math.24:15 references the AOD and Math.24:30 references the coming of Jesus in the clouds, and therefore both events are referenced in the same discourse.
In Math.24:34 Jesus says "this generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled". "All these things" refers to everything Jesus said in his discourse up to that point (v34).
Therefore, according to Matthew, the "generation" to see Jesus coming on the clouds would also see the AOD.

Luke 21:20-22 references the destruction of Jerusalem and Luke 21:27 references the coming of Jesus in the clouds, and therefore both events are referenced in the same
discourse. In Luke 21:32 Jesus says "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass away until all be fulfilled". "All" refers to everything Jesus said in his discourse up to that point (v32). Therefore, according to Luke, the "generation" to see Jesus coming on the clouds would also see the destruction of Jerusalem.

Now let's combine both accounts of the same discourse for the fullest
understanding:

Therefore, according to Luke and Matthew, the generation to see Jesus coming in the clouds would also see the AOD and the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem.

There is no possible grammatical, contextual, or logical way you can get around this conclusion.

There are only 2 explanations then:

1. Jesus' second coming already took place in 70ad and full preterism is correct.
This is obviously false, since we have no glorified body and Jesus (the man) is not on earth.

2. When Jesus spoke of his "coming in the clouds" he was not making reference to his second coming.
This is obviously the truth. I have already thoroughly shown by scripture that the "coming in the clouds" was a combination of OT scripture references such as Dan.7:13 Isa.19:1 Ezek.3:30 Joel 2:1-2 which Jesus used to warn his disciples
of the coming judgment and to explain that Jerusalems destruction meant his vindication as rightful King of Israel.

 

[reba]

NOT necessarily directed at the last poster.....

Guys this is a good thread information is being exchanged , we all love the Lord, lets see if we can stay away from getting personal.... and besides that if every ones stays happy i can post God's Word will not return void of what He has sent it to do.... So our job is to lay it out ,the Holy Spirit will teach each of us as we seek...

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

 

[Deborah13]

Personally i dont believe ones thoughts about eschatology are unto salvation

Missed this post earlier.
I don't think so either. But to understand the Word is important. I taught all my children AoG teachings. Some is very good and some not so good in, my case anyway. So I've had some correcting to do. Now it appears there may be more. I'm not committing yet but I appreciate this thread and everyone sharing so openly.
I certainly don't think you have a "know it all" attitude. I have been asking questions and you and many others have been wonderful in helping me sort it out.
I know you would not have jumped into this without a lot of prayer and study and look I get to take advantage of that. God blesses.

 

[JLB]

1. Jesus' second coming already took place in 70ad and full preterism is correct. This is obviously false, since we have no glorified body and Jesus (the man) is not on earth.

Jesus second coming certainly did not take place in 70 AD.

2. When Jesus spoke of his "coming in the clouds" he was not making reference to his second coming. This is obviously the truth. I have already thoroughly shown by scripture that the "coming in the clouds" was a combination of OT scripture references such as Dan.7:13 Isa.19:1 Ezek.3:30 Joel 2:1-2 which Jesus used to warn his disciples of the coming judgment and to explain that Jerusalem's destruction meant his vindication as rightful King of Israel.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

The great tribulation is a direct result of the Abomination of Desolation.

This event takes place after the events of 70 AD.

Therefore Matthew 24:29-31 refers to The Second Coming of Jesus and not the events of 70 AD.

as it is written -

26 After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed.

This happens in 70 AD!

The events of verse 27 happen after 70 AD.

27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator."


JLB

 

[reba]

Deb, My childhood Sunday School was over 50 years ago..... I would not change the AofG Sunday School teaching i had or taught for anything... I see much new age int he AofG teaching of today ... It is so very sad..

 

[Deborah13]

Again, Jesus' "coming in the clouds" was not a literal event, but a revelation (a revealing) of his judgment and vindication which he accomplished at the hands of the Romans.

Is there any way you can prove this in scripture references or in the way certain words such as "see" or "coming in the clouds" are used in other scripture that would give this scripture a witness of sorts? That in other scripture when the Lord uses "see" it is not literal although it can appear that way but be clearer than this one?

 

[Deborah13]

Deb, My childhood Sunday School was over 50 years ago..... I would not change the AofG Sunday School teaching i had or taught for anything... I see much new age int he AofG teaching of today ... It is so very sad..

I think what they learned at Sunday School was fine and that was for the oldest that starting about 36 yrs ago.
I don't really know what New Age is I can't image what I do know could be in an AoG church.

 

[reba]

Lets remember ...
2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

I really dont want to get out the ol

 

[JLB]

Jesus clarified what He meant by His reference to Daniel.

15 "Therefore when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),

The simple truth for all to see. The Abomination of Desolation, as spoken of by Daniel, occurs well after the destruction of the city and sanctuary.


Daniel 9:26-27 -


26 After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed.

• ... destroy the city and the sanctuary. - This event occurs in 70 AD.
  

27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator."


... the abomination of desolation - This event occurs 3 1/2 years after the 70 th weeks starts.


The Abomination of Desolation event clearly occurs after the events of 70 AD.

Jesus listed the Abomination of Desolation as one of His signs BEFORE, and leading up to the Coming of the Son of Man and the end of the age.

Another one of many clear scriptures that refutes Preterism!


JLB

Deleted quote from deleted post.

I did not sense any hostility from you.

Be direct as you want.

You have said absolutely nothing to address the clear scriptures I gave.

Did I say the word Gap?

Please review the scriptures and comment on the facts that the scriptures present.

The Abomination of Desolation comes after the destruction of the temple as spoken of by Daniel.


26 After those 62 weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come with a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations are decreed.


The people of the coming prince will destroy the city and the sanctuary. Do you agree that this happened in 70 AD?

The events of verse 27 take place during the 70 th week. Yes or No?

The 70th week comes after the 69th week? Yes or No?

27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And the abomination of desolation will be on a wing of the temple until the decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator."

The great tribulation is the direct result of the The Abomination of Desolation. Yes or No?


The scriptures establish irrefutable facts.

These scriptures will not go away.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering.

Orth. Hebrew Bible
27 And he shall confirm brit (covenant) with rabbim for one heptad; and in the midst of the heptad he shall cause the zevach and the minchah to cease

KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant

The ASV sounds different to me. KJV matches the OHB in this case.

 

[Hope of glory]

Question to all posters:

Math.24:15 references the AOD and Math.24:30 references the coming of Jesus in the clouds, and therefore both verses are spoken in the same discourse.
In Math.24:34 Jesus says "this generation shall not pass until all these things be fulfilled". "All these things" includes both verses 15 and 30.
Therefore, according to Matthew, the "generation" to see Jesus coming on the clouds would also see the AOD.

Is this a true statement? Yes or no

 

[JLB]

27 He will make a firm covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering.

Orth. Hebrew Bible
27 And he shall confirm brit (covenant) with rabbim for one heptad; and in the midst of the heptad he shall cause the zevach and the minchah to cease

KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant

The ASV sounds different to me. KJV matches the OHB in this case.

Deborah,

Do you agree with what Daniel 9:26-27 teaches, that the AOD come after 70 AD.

JLB