Essential vs Nonessential

[MarkT]

In Acts 16:31, can they believe and not be saved? Where does it say that?

How long must they believe before 'saved' takes effect? Where does it say that?

Paul said believe in the Lord Jesus and you and your household will be saved. Then Paul and Silas spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all that were in his house. Then the jailer washed their wounds and he was baptized at once, with all his family. Then he brought them up into his house, and set food before them; and he rejoiced with all his household that he had believed in God. Acts 16:34

So they were washed by the word, and justified by faith and deed/the fruit of hospitality toward the apostles.

Where does it say they believed for a moment?

 

[FreeGrace]

Strange, no one on your side of the aisle will touch the one on one.

Please answer regarding Jn.5:24: Is there a scripture, any scripture which says the "MOMENT" one believer one eternal life??? Yes, or no??? If so produce it. If not admit it. Why is this request so difficult for you folk??

NO THERE IS NOT A VERSE THAT USES THE WORD "MOMENT".

Now, about about returning to reality and deal with the clear implications of John 5:24 as to WHEN one HAS eternal life.

According to what Jesus said in John 5:24, when do YOU think one HAS eternal life?

 

[FreeGrace]

If you folk have the truth why can't ANY of you answer my questions? For example the questions in my post #515???

I just did. And it is an irrelevant question at that.

 

[JLB]

Is it significant that Jesus says that the reason they "do not believe" is BECAUSE they are "not of My sheep" rather than saying they are "not of My sheep" because they "do not believe"?

Everything Jesus said is significant, and is to be understood on a multifaceted level.

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
John 10:25-30

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:27-28 KJV

27 according as I said to you: My sheep my voice do hear, and I know them, and they follow me,
28 and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish -- to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of my hand;
John 10:27-28 YLT

The point Jesus is making here is that He is the Lord God, and the Judge, and giver of Eternal Life.

It was well known in Jewish thought that one would come to inherit eternal life, which is the context of what Jesus is teaching to the Jews, that He is the Messiah; The Lord God of Israel.

What Jesus doesn't say here in this passage is that at the moment we believe we have, at that moment, eternal life and will never perish.

Obviously He is not saying this since everyone will die a natural death, and it will be determined at the Judgement, who will inherit or be given eternal life.

By saying those who hear His voice, He is claiming that He is the Lord God, The Righteous Judge; The God of Abraham.

This is what Abraham was known and honored for:

4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:4-5

To the Hebrew, hear His Voice, means to hearken and obey Him.


Obey - Strong's H8085 - shama`

to hear, listen to, obey

1. (Qal)
   
   1. to hear (perceive by ear)
   2. to hear of or concerning
   3. to hear (have power to hear)
   4. to hear with attention or interest, listen to
   5. to understand (language)
   6. to hear (of judicial cases)
   7. to listen, give heed
      
      1. to consent, agree
      2. to grant request
   8. to listen to, yield to
   9. to obey, be obedient
      
2. (Niphal)
   
   1. to be heard (of voice or sound)
   2. to be heard of
   3. to be regarded, be obeyed
      
3. (Piel) to cause to hear, call to hear, summon
   
   
4. (Hiphil)
   
   1. to cause to hear, tell, proclaim, utter a sound
   2. to sound aloud (musical term)
   3. to make proclamation, summon
   4. to cause to be heard
      

Those who are qualified to receive eternal life are those who -

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:27-28


The condition for being a one of His sheep, and receiving eternal life: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

After His sheep have met these conditions, the result: And I give unto them eternal life;


If eternal life was instantaneous, then the condition of following Him and knowing Him would not have been mentioned as qualifications.


From this point, we need to discuss the principle of sheep, and the possibility of a sheep becoming lost, because they stop hearing His voice and following Him.


Headed out for a road trip, will pick this up this evening.


Be blessed.



JLB

 

[chessman]

Is it significant that Jesus says that the reason they "do not believe" is BECAUSE they are "not of My sheep" rather than saying they are "not of My sheep" because they "do not believe"?

Yes.

 

[JLB]

Another example of not reading posts before responding to them.

I ASKED whether you had kept every commandment perfectly from birth.


Exactly! Please read posts before making such an embarrassing mistake.


You've continued to balk at any explanation of what Jesus meant in John 10:28 about recipients of eternal life and not perishing.

Why?

What was Jesus teaching in John 10:28?

Do you even know?

Maybe that's why there has been such pushback.

I read your post and saw no scripture passages to discuss.

When your ready to discuss scripture and what the actual words of a passage says, then I will be glad to discuss.

No need to explain or "interpret" the meaning of the scripture, but discussing what the scripture says, together with it's context as well as what Jesus said about the subject in that same book.


Here is what discussing the words of scripture looks like.

It starts with posting the actual words of the scripture, that one is willing to discuss.

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
John 10:25-30

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:27-28 KJV

27 according as I said to you: My sheep my voice do hear, and I know them, and they follow me,
28 and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish -- to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of my hand;
John 10:27-28 YLT

The point Jesus is making here is that He is the Lord God, and the Judge, and giver of Eternal Life.

It was well known in Jewish thought that one would come to inherit eternal life, which is the context of what Jesus is teaching to the Jews, that He is the Messiah; The Lord God of Israel.

• And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29

• Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34

• Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?” Mark 10:17

• ... that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7

What Jesus doesn't say here in this passage is that at the moment we believe we have, at that moment, eternal life and will never perish.


Obviously He is not saying this since everyone will die a natural death, and it will be determined at the Judgement, who will inherit or be given eternal life.

By saying those who hear His voice, He is claiming that He is the Lord God, The Righteous Judge; The God of Abraham.

This is what Abraham was known and honored for:

4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Genesis 26:4-5

To the Hebrew, hear His Voice, means to hearken and obey Him.


Obey - Strong's H8085 - shama`

to hear, listen to, obey

1. (Qal)
   1. to hear (perceive by ear)
   2. to hear of or concerning
   3. to hear (have power to hear)
   4. to hear with attention or interest, listen to
   5. to understand (language)
   6. to hear (of judicial cases)
   7. to listen, give heed
      1. to consent, agree
      2. to grant request
   8. to listen to, yield to
   9. to obey, be obedient
2. (Niphal)
   1. to be heard (of voice or sound)
   2. to be heard of
   3. to be regarded, be obeyed
3. (Piel) to cause to hear, call to hear, summon
   
   
4. (Hiphil)
   1. to cause to hear, tell, proclaim, utter a sound
   2. to sound aloud (musical term)
   3. to make proclamation, summon
   4. to cause to be heard

Those who are qualified to receive eternal life are those who -

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:27-28


The condition for being a one of His sheep, and receiving eternal life: My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

After His sheep have met these conditions, the result: And I give unto them eternal life;


If eternal life was instantaneous, then the condition of following Him and knowing Him would not have been mentioned as qualifications.


From this point, we need to discuss the principle of sheep, and the possibility of a sheep becoming lost, because they stop hearing His voice and following Him.



JLB

 

[JLB]

You didn't answer my question.

Here's the Scripture and my question relative to your understanding of it, once again.

John 5:29 and they [all those in the graves, v28] will come out—those who have done good things to a resurrection of life, but those who have practiced evil things to a resurrection of judgment.
Is it good to have believed (obeyed) in Jesus Christ as your Savior?
[This is a simple, reasonable, yes/no question relative to your theological position.]

Of course it is good to obey the Lord.

If you don't obey the Lord, then He is not your Lord.

Your Lord is the one you obey, whether sin, or whether the Lord Jesus.

• why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?

Context:

• and hears My sayings and does them

“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.” Luke 6:46-49


Now, here is my question to you:

If a person believes the Gospel, then gets Baptized in water, and gets baptized with the Holy Spirit, goes to Church and for years serves people in the community, then has child killed by a drunk driver, whereby they grow bitter and blame God, and stop going to church, and begins to hate people who drink alcohol, and dies in that condition of anger and hatred.

Do they still have eternal life?

Jesus commands us the love and forgive.

He gives us the grace and power to accomplish this, which sets us apart from the world.

It's not optional.

Can we ourselves who are saved through faith, disobey this command to love and forgive, instead choose to hate and harbor unforgiveness.

14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
1 John 3:14-15

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4



I know Him, means you are claiming you are joined to Him, and are in Him where eternal life is.


This is just one example of disobedience, when could also talk about those who are liars and those who are sexually immoral.



JLB

 

[JLB]

That hasn't been the discussion on this thread, for those who have been following (paying attention).

The issue is the outcome for recipients of eternal life from John 10:28; not how to receive eternal life.

That's the sole issue you've been dodging all this time.

When someone inherits eternal life, at His coming and the resurrection, whereby they are counted worthy to attain that age and come forth in the resurrection of life [John 5:29] then they will be immortal and never die anymore.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36


Can you still die, Freegrace?


JLB

 

[chessman]

I didn't say the scriptures you posted were "questions".

Your reply to me said they may be "easily answered"

Your scriptures just posted may be easily answered when we "rightly divide the word of truth".

Definition of answer
1a : something spoken or written in reply to a question

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/answer

I said you have to "rightly divide" God's word".

No you didn't. You have made a false claim that's what you said, but you're in error by doing so.
Here's your post. "God's word" is not there. Might have been what you meant. But you, you didn't use those words.

Hi Chessman. Your scriptures just posted may be easily answered when we "rightly divide the word of truth".

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you, the ones who once were far away, have become near by the blood of Christ.​

Here's a question for you to answer:
Have saved people (who were once far away from Christ) become "in Christ" now or will they be in Christ later in life/death? (Please answer this question after reading as much of Ephesians as you'd like and don't just answer from your 'memory' of it.]

 

[chessman]

Of course it is good to obey the Lord.

Cool, 'yes' is your answer then. I have a follow up question too John 5:28-29's truth (below) after I answer yours about a separate passage first. Please answer it too.

If a person believes the Gospel, then gets Baptized in water, and gets baptized with the Holy Spirit, goes to Church and for years serves people in the community, then has child killed by a drunk driver, whereby they grow bitter and blame God, and stop going to church, and begins to hate people who drink alcohol, and dies in that condition of anger and hatred.

Do they still have eternal life?

Yes. Here's one reason why:

John 5:29 and they [all those in the graves, v28] will come out—those who have done good things to a resurrection of life, but those who have practiced evil things to a resurrection of judgment.​

You said this person believed the Gospel (i.e. Done good) which also means this person obeyed the Gospel.

Here's another reason why I answer "yes" to your question: Someone very knowledgeable about these storms of life which come upon people, (like loosing a child to a drunk drive and tending to blame God) once quoted Jesus' teaching that says:

Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.

Since (Biblically speaking) "believing" the Gospel/Rock includes "obeying" the Gospel/Rock your question must be answered with a "yes" (Biblically speaking). This person who hates people who drink and drove laid his foundation on The Rock! He has done good things. Thus, He has flood protection and will resurrect to life (per Jesus' teaching). Now his example posed to others prior to entering the grave could use some improvements, sure. But what house couldn't???

If you don't obey the Lord, then He is not your Lord.

Okay, cool. That was actually my next point. (We just saved a step). If you have not obeyed/believed the Lord, then He's not your Lord! Never was! [not sure how that strengthens your case though. Seems to me, it precludes it.]

John 5:29 and they [all those in the graves, v28] will come out—those who have done good things [those who have obeyed/believed the Lord is some thing you just agreed was doing a good thing] to a resurrection of life, but those who have practiced evil things to a resurrection of judgment.​

Here's my follow up question relative to John 5:28-29:
In accordance with John 5:28-29, when someone's body comes from the grave who has believed/obeyed the Lord (i.e. done a good thing) will this person resurrect to:
A. life
or
B. judgment?

 

[billybalke]

Your reply to me said they may be "easily answered"



Definition of answer
1a : something spoken or written in reply to a question

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/answer


No you didn't. You have made a false claim that's what you said, but you're in error by doing so.
Here's your post. "God's word" is not there. Might have been what you meant. But you, you didn't use those words.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you, the ones who once were far away, have become near by the blood of Christ.​

Here's a question for you to answer:
Have saved people (who were once far away from Christ) become "in Christ" now or will they be in Christ later in life/death? (Please answer this question after reading as much of Ephesians as you'd like and don't just answer from your 'memory' of it.]

Post 504, I said you have to "rightly divide the word of truth", which is found in II Tim.2:15. Also, by "easily answered" I mean your posted scriptures (not questions) can be "easily answered" in the one on one, to which for some reason none of you want to do.

The question you want me to answer is not clear, could you rephrase it please?

 

[FreeGrace]

Everything Jesus said is significant, and is to be understood on a multifaceted level.

No, His words are to be taken at FACE VALUE. What does "multifaceted level" even mean?

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
John 10:25-30

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:27-28 KJV

27 according as I said to you: My sheep my voice do hear, and I know them, and they follow me,
28 and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish -- to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of my hand;
John 10:27-28 YLT

The point Jesus is making here is that He is the Lord God, and the Judge, and giver of Eternal Life.

So, where's the "multifaceted level" here? Is that the only point Jesus made in those verses?

Clearly, He made MANY (multifaceted??) points in those verses.

In John 10:25-30, His main point is that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

Which no one has yet to refute with any ANY OTHER VERSE. Therefore, eternal security is clearly taught by Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace]

I read your post and saw no scripture passages to discuss.

When your ready to discuss scripture and what the actual words of a passage says, then I will be glad to discuss.

Not hardly. I've given the verses over and over and this is all I get; more dodging and stalling.

What does John 5:24 teach about when one possesses eternal life? This question has been completely ignored in that regard.

What does John 10:28 teach about recipients of eternal life? This question has been completely ignored.

Now, I've just (once again) given 2 verses, with questions about what each one teaches.

Are you up to giving an answer to these very simple and straightforward questions? Or just more stalling.

No need to explain or "interpret" the meaning of the scripture, but discussing what the scripture says, together with it's context as well as what Jesus said about the subject in that same book.

Well, you're off the hook for providing any explanation of either verse, since it's clear there is an inability to provide any.

So, just answer the questions, based on the 2 verses.

Here is what discussing the words of scripture looks like.

It starts with posting the actual words of the scripture, that one is willing to discuss.

But you just said there "is no need to explain or interpret the meaning of the Scripture" above.

So, how about just answering my 2 simple questions about 2 verses?

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”
John 10:25-30

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:27-28 KJV

27 according as I said to you: My sheep my voice do hear, and I know them, and they follow me,
28 and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish -- to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of my hand;
John 10:27-28 YLT

The point Jesus is making here is that He is the Lord God, and the Judge, and giver of Eternal Life.

yeah, this is just a cut and paste from your previous post. Cute.

Now, since you've quoted 10:28, can you answer my question about what Jesus SAID about recipients of eternal life?

And don't forget the question about John 5:24, and what Jesus taught about WHEN one possesses eternal life.

Thanks.

 

[Papa Zoom]

You guys will never settle this. Raise your hand if you've been convinced of the other person's position? Thought so.....

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"That hasn't been the discussion on this thread, for those who have been following (paying attention).

The issue is the outcome for recipients of eternal life from John 10:28; not how to receive eternal life.

That's the sole issue you've been dodging all this time."

When someone inherits eternal life, at His coming and the resurrection, whereby they are counted worthy to attain that age and come forth in the resurrection of life [John 5:29] then they will be immortal and never die anymore.

What does this have to do with the outcome for recipients of eternal life in John 10:28? Nothing.

35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:35-36

Can you still die, Freegrace?

The passage is not relevant to my question, so I will not answer yours, until you answer mine.

That's what you've demanded of other posters. I'm applying your own standard to yourself.

Will you comply with your own standards, or be like our congress, who doesn't comply with their standards for us?

 

[FreeGrace]

You guys will never settle this.

I, for one, am not trying to "settle" anything. I just like to show what Scripture SAYS about certain topics. How others react to the truth is their issue. Not mine.

Raise your hand if you've been convinced of the other person's position? Thought so.....

No doubt there are many who have switches sides on any number of debated topics.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I, for one, am not trying to "settle" anything. I just like to show what Scripture SAYS about certain topics. How others react to the truth is their issue. Not mine.


No doubt there are many who have switches sides on any number of debated topics.

I believe as you do - that a person who puts their faith in Jesus is eternally secure from the moment he/she believes. I could easily defend this with Scripture. But those that disagree don't listen. They just get ready their next batch of arguments. They only look at half of the Scriptures and not the whole council of God. When one honestly, and with and open mind, looks prayerfully at what the Bible says, in total, regarding eternal security, it's easy to see that Christians are saved by God and kept. Not one of Jesus' followers will be lost. He is the Good Shepherd.

I'll bet there are hundreds (if not thousands) of posts on this topic. If I were to take the time to lay all of the posts side by side and eliminate every post that simply repeated what was already said, those hundreds would turn into perhaps two dozen at most.

People have received warnings over some of the OSAS posts. Bannings have occurred. And this from fellow Christians!!! And yet, not ONE of you will read what I said here and examine yourself over this decisive issue. Because you have to be right.

Let me put it this way: This constant bickering over this issue does NOTHING to advance the community of believers. That IS something you are called to do - live in harmony and promote unity among the believers!. But you all constantly argue and bicker over this as if God sent you to do it. If Paul were here he'd give you all a smack down.

 

[billybalke]

NO THERE IS NOT A VERSE THAT USES THE WORD "MOMENT".

Now, about about returning to reality and deal with the clear implications of John 5:24 as to WHEN one HAS eternal life.

According to what Jesus said in John 5:24, when do YOU think one HAS eternal life?

Thanks for the admission that NO scripture says we are saved at the MOMENT one believes. You are making progress!

 

[chessman]

Post 504, I said you have to "rightly divide the word of truth"

Yet you replied to me claiming to have said "rightly divided God's word".

I said you have to "rightly divide" God's word"

Are you suggesting that these statements are precisely equivalent to each other??? They're not. But you may have very well meant to communicate the same principle only using different wording.

Seems awfully hypocritical coming from someone who is looking for the exact English wording "we are saved at the MOMENT one believes" from Greek Scripture.

The question you want me to answer is not clear,

I haven't asked you any questions. I posted Scriptures that answered yours.
But if you're in the mood to answer a question, given you don't think we are saved the moment we believe, here's one:

The moment someone believes, are they now in Christ Jesus, or does that come later?

 

[chessman]

If Paul were here he'd give you all a smack down.

1 Corinthians 11:19 For indeed it is necessary that there be factions among you, in order that those who are approved may become evident among you. ​

Factions/divisons are indeed necessary in order that those who have the Biblical based evidence for their doctrines are evident from those who do not.